It used to be a 69 daytona

[held1823]

Many are adamant about their belief that switching V.I.N. tags to another similar car/unibody and associated hidden I.D. numbers is just plain wrong, legal or not.

the VIN tag is secured to the dash frame of both cars. why not simply leave the donor car VIN tag attached?  if deception is not the main agenda, why does it matter which VIN this "restored" vehicle carries?

what plausible theory involving the "associated hidden ID numbers" makes them necessary to "preserve the heritage" of a car? Any 1969 charger is worth preserving. What makes it so imperative to "preserve" a hulk of scrap, when preserving the donor car is the easier and cheaper option?

[DC_1]

What makes it so imperative to "preserve" a hulk of scrap, when preserving the donor car is the easier and cheaper option?

Because a hulk of scrap with a "XX" in the VIN is worth more than a moderately rusted complete car that only has a "XP" in the VIN

[Ghoste]

Because originality is worth more than rust.  There is a very good reason why for sale ads almost never ever mention if the car is a rebody and yet they tout its originality continually. 

[pettybird]

huge ass article thing

was this lifted off of a pro-choice website?  holy hell.

[JB400]

huge ass article thing

was this lifted off of a pro-choice website?  holy hell.

For B Bodies only. I was researching the subject of rebodying a car after ghoste and myself had our own discussion of the matter.  Seems like our opinions are shared throughout the hobby.

[Indygenerallee]

was this lifted off of a pro-choice website?  holy hell.

My thought exactly PettyBird!!

[Alaskan_TA]

VIN laws mention 'tampering'.

If removing body numbers from one body panel & transferring them to another is not tampering, then I need a new dictionary.

[JB400]

True, but these laws were meant more for the chop shops and not for the restoration industry.  Checking with your DMV about it first is the smartest thing to do.

[Indygenerallee]

Stroker, You just don't get it YOU CANNOT TRANSFER ONE VIN PLATE TO ANOTHER CAR IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE IT'S ILLEGAL!!! 100% OF THE TIME!!!

[JB400]

Stroker, You just got it YOU CANNOT TRANSFER ONE VIN PLATE TO ANOTHER CAR IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE IT'S ILLEGAL!!! 100% OF THE TIME!!!

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/21/classic-recreations-spurs-creation-of-new-law-to-help-restorers/

[rainbow4jd]

OK, I know everyone will hate me for this....

Legally a car doesn't exist as a piece of iron, it exists as a piece of paper called a title.   Actually, it starts as paper - a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin, which is then used to obtain a state title.

That title is a legal claim to the iron and the components of the vehicle - all of which - every single piece -  can be replaced / repaired without regard to originality.  There are few legal distinction between a repaired/replaced/restored vehicle (provided some individual state legal aspects of the restoration process are met). 

While you can get a clear, branded, salvage, or rebuilt title (depending on circumstances) ALL of those are legal instruments that allow you to rebuild a vehicle of which there are ZERO original parts remaining.   Now, only car enthusiasts will find this disturbing, of which I am generally one - but I also understand the law and the various sorts of car titles that exist (depending on the state) - salvage and rebuilt titles are common means of restoring a car that has been totaled.   

These titles are necessary to distinguish appropriate levels of state required insurance coverage (and the insurance companies also use those titles to assign coverage and liability levels).

So, let me cut to the chase.

IF I can salvage a vin tag or indentifying VIN number from ANY part of a wrecked car - I can get a salvage title in most states.    And after getting the title, I can legally even replace the piece of metal that I used to acquire the original title.   I can replace 100% of the parts with NON originals.

So that "used to be a 69 Daytona" is STILL a 69 Daytona, just one that will require a huge restoration most likely from a donor car.  Legally you can have the title of the donor car branded or wiped out making IT incapable of ever being registered again as a legally driveable vehicle, while resurrecting the heap from the grave (provided the title to it is still clear).

I know that is a long, ugly, and unpalatable process to those who are car enthusiasts and value "originality" - but to the person who is buying a restored car - its just a question of "personal" taste or opinion on HOW MUCH restoration you can live with.   

If it ever makes it back on the road, it will make for a hell of a story come auction time.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[JB400]

http://mapleleafmopars.homestead.com/MofMjuly2006.html

I agree with Rainbow 110%

[held1823]

Legally a car doesn't exist as a piece of iron, it exists as a piece of paper called a title.

if that were the case, the two pieces of tin removed from this pile of scrap metal would not be worth hanging on to.

why keep the VIN and fender tags, if the car exists merely as a piece of paper? using your logic, the rebodied car would still be a daytona, even with the vin and fender tags from the donor car.

[Ghoste]

And ask anybody who has one if salvage titles are as vauable as clear original ones.

[65post]

Just off hand without naming any vins....How many rebodied Daytonas are out there.I know of one but there must be more.....

[Gary42]

Just off hand without naming any vins....How many rebodied Daytonas are out there.I know of one but there must be more.....

That's the million dollar question I asked a few posts back, and if by some chance someone knows of any other "re-bodied/salvage" vehicles out there: who would actually be willing to divulge such information to the public. Esp......if they are the "new" owner, or a potential buyer of a vehicle worth more then just the "original" vehicles restored out there? I know its an ethical thing and from what I'm seeing, its illegal in both the US and Canada.

The only known vin tag switch I know of was done by Ford back in 1970. They had approximately 70 "69" Mustangs left over, and decided to "switch or re vin" them into 1970 Mustangs. They had allot of paperwork to go thru, but by federal standards, they were the "only" ones who could do this because they were the "original" builders of these vehicles. With a few modifications, they turned the 69's into 70 models. From what I remember about the discussion, they had to have FBI agents present when they did this to make it legal.

I think it comes down to what I have seen on here posted. If by some chance this Daytona is "re-bodied" by someone down the road, it is supposed to follow the car and be made public information during its time spent on the road. I think what many are worried about is that down the road this car will "loose" its "re-bodied" status and become known as "original" making it very valuable: probably more then some of the "original" ones on the road today.

Scary thought, but yes I guess it could happen and I can see why some of the owners of these amazing cars are truly worried beyond the ethical or moral beliefs. It could potentially bring down the value of say a "real" non re-bodied/salvage titled car because the more that are found and placed back on the road, the less rarity these cars will hold. Who knows, I guess we all have to sit back and watch this story unfold. I guess "only" the new owner will have to decide which avenue of approach he will take in considering what "he" wants to do with this car. Just my  

[Ghoste]

I work in a business that sells some of the highest end cars in the hobby and I can tell you that a rebodied car always carries a stigma.  There is still a market for them and guys will sometimes even set a sale record to get one but they always have that cloud over the car.  About the only thing that seems to hurt the value of rebodied collector cars more is when its discovered at the last moment during an auction.  If we find out at the last moment it has to be disclosed and it can really kill the interst.  Much more so than one that has had the fact known all along.

[Benji]

I know for a fact that at least one of the seven existing (and coveted) 1971 Hemicuda convertibles is a rebody. It was done in 1974 and was sold for about $4500.00 back then.  I'm 99% sure someone else later on restamped the core suppost and inside the quarter panel rail as I am equally 99% sure the car has been certified as legit by Galen Govier and I don't think the body shop that did the original rebody took the time to restamp anything. At that time the car was simply another total being rebuilt to sell at a profit.

Benji

[Nwcharger]

I look at it like this. 503 of these cars where made and I want one but at there current value I will never afford one and at 28 years old I can only see them getting further away from a price that I can afford. If it cost me less than 10k for a carcass with matching number motor, dash vin, fender tag, trunk gutter vin and all the original paperwork then I think I'm off to a good start. I'm ok with the fact that if possible to restore its going to take years and years along with lots of money. I would love to buy troys car instead all day long but I'm sure he wouldn't want to take a down payment and payments for 20 years. I have no plans to hide its history. That would be impossible, so many people know about this car. I think It would be an amazing to see this car restored and back on the road. So was that 71 purple hemi cuda convertible restored or rebodyed? I still think I have more to my car if all that was left on the cuda was a core support, inner fenders, firewall and windshield frame. Does anyone have any pictures of that xp hemi charger before it's restoration?

[Ghoste]

There may be some pics of the XP thing in that thread on it.  It weas basically a stripped out shell with no fender tag and rusty rusty rusty rusty.

[held1823]

I look at it like this. 503 of these cars where made and I want one but at there current value I will never afford one and at 28 years old I can only see them getting further away from a price that I can afford. If it cost me less than 10k for a carcass with matching number motor, dash vin, fender tag, trunk gutter vin and all the original paperwork then I think I'm off to a good start.

let's split that 10k figure up. how much do you suppose you'd be paying for the scrap carcass, and how much for the numbers and paperwork?

I think It would be an amazing to see this car restored and back on the road. So was that 71 purple hemi cuda convertible restored or rebodyed? I still think I have more to my car if all that was left on the cuda was a core support, inner fenders, firewall and windshield frame. Does anyone have any pictures of that xp hemi charger before it's restoration?

have more to your car, in regards to usable metal, or reusable documentation? you inquire about photos of the rebodied charger; we've seen photos of what you seek to bring back. does anyone, yourself included, think the finished product will have anything to do with the original car, beyond the numbers and paperwork?

we all know it's your time and money. don't let the doubters, myself included, cause you to not share the progress. opinions like mine are a dime a dozen, and way overpriced, even at that amount. regardless of how the restoration or rebody turns out, we will all appreciate the workmanship and story.

[JB400]

Considering the amount of bickering on this thread about what's legal what's not, I don't know what everyone else thinks, but I'm glad someone is trying to put one more Daytona on the road.    for that.  Actually,  for anyone willing to take the time to put an old car back on the road.

[Benji]

As someone else said a car is only original one time and then for only a few months.  Once anything has been replaced it isn't original anymore.  I suppose most wouldn't get too excited if the spark plugs, points, condenser, brakes or clutch/pressure plate, T/O bearing were not original but still if any of these parts have been replaced the car isn't really original to some I suppose.  It most likely depends on how anal he wants to be.

Ben

[rainbow4jd]

Legally a car doesn't exist as a piece of iron, it exists as a piece of paper called a title.

if that were the case, the two pieces of tin removed from this pile of scrap metal would not be worth hanging on to.

why keep the VIN and fender tags, if the car exists merely as a piece of paper? using your logic, the rebodied car would still be a daytona, even with the vin and fender tags from the donor car.

I think the rest of my post clarifies your question, the title preceded the iron, not the other way around.

There is no such legal distinction as "rebodied" - and I don't intend to get into that debate - its legal distinction is solely based on its "title".

Thereafter, its a question of personal opinions

[held1823]

There is no such legal distinction as "rebodied" - and I don't intend to get into that debate - its legal distinction is solely based on its "title".

the linked article from post #159 earlier today seems to contradict this statement. some vehicle titles are indeed marked as a rebody, if the information presented in that autoblog story is accurate. if this daytona was being resurrected under those title stipulations, would someone still spend the time and money to build it? likely not, but obtaining a clear title changes the entire game, both legally and financially. those in the know concerning the car's history might not be affected, but the rest of the 99.99% would be at risk. look no further than the "documented" bobby allison contraption that mecum paraded across the auction block not so long ago, for evidence of what misinformation can do.

regulations, such as that apparently introduced in oklahoma, could go a long way towards preventing collector car fraud. leaving destroyed collector cars in the junk yard could do so, as well.