Gas engine more efficient than electric engine

[tricky lugnuts]

Per the discussions about how the Volt is going to revolutionize the automobile industry, it appears that a gasoline engine just beat out an electric car in an energy efficiency contest:

http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2010/09/17/17climatewire-gasoline-trumps-electricity-in-fuel-efficien-46638.html

The article raises some interesting discussion in terms of what people will be willing to compromise and sacrifice in their vehicles to get 60 or 100 miles per gallon - whether they will happily accept the added cost and limited range of electric-powered vehicles (Volt, Nissan Leaf), or the smaller and lighter vehicles (i.e. Smart Car) that will be required for gasoline engines to reach into those efficiencies.

[tricky lugnuts]

"Then he realized something: The Chevy Volt, a plug-in electric car, travels 40 miles on electricity, thanks to a battery weighing 1,000 pounds. Meanwhile, his Volkswagen Jetta travels 40 miles on a gallon of gas -- about 9 pounds."

This paragraph really stuck out in my mind, demonstrating the significant amount of engineering and development still required before batteries will be able to replace gasoline as a viable energy source.

[bakerhillpins]

"Then he realized something: The Chevy Volt, a plug-in electric car, travels 40 miles on electricity, thanks to a battery weighing 1,000 pounds. Meanwhile, his Volkswagen Jetta travels 40 miles on a gallon of gas -- about 9 pounds."

This paragraph really stuck out in my mind, demonstrating the significant amount of engineering and development still required before batteries will be able to replace gasoline as a viable energy source.

Not that I want to get into yet another pissing contest concerning green tech but the point you make is a very important one. We are still early in the life cycle of electric (alternate energy) vehicles and most forget where we started. A Model T for example has the following specs. http://www.barefootsworld.net/ford-t-specs.html

Average Weight   1200 -1500 pounds
Engine Horsepower   20-22 BHP @ 1600 Maximum RPM
Fuel Consumption    Approx. 20-25 MPG @ 35 MPH
Fuel Capacity   10 Gallons - Range approx 200 mile.

Compare those to today's vehicles which hold what? maybe a 100+ year engineering advantage. Do and should we expect more? Sure, but every product and technology has to start somewhere.

[elacruze]

I believe that electric cars will be economical and viable within 10 years. I also believe that when they do, they will not depend on batteries any more than gasoline cars do.

I've been following this for some time now-

https://engineering.purdue.edu/Engr/AboutUs/News/Publications/EngEdge/2008/AreWeonCourseforaHydrogenEconomy

If this cold-reaction hydrogen fuel cell works as hoped, and doesn't get bought up and buried by the Oil Industry, the need for enormous batteries would disappear.

I can't wait for these guys' IPO.

[Chad L. Magee]

I believe that electric cars will be economical and viable within 10 years. I also believe that when they do, they will not depend on batteries any more than gasoline cars do.

I've been following this for some time now-

https://engineering.purdue.edu/Engr/AboutUs/News/Publications/EngEdge/2008/AreWeonCourseforaHydrogenEconomy

If this cold-reaction hydrogen fuel cell works as hoped, and doesn't get bought up and buried by the Oil Industry, the need for enormous batteries would disappear.

I can't wait for these guys' IPO.

When I was still in grad school, I had an independent research proposal that was on designing a all-in-one solar cell battery (basically a battery that would recharge itself when let out in the sunlight).  The ORP is a test to see how you can develop your own research concepts via a project report and presentation to a group of your professors.  The twist is that you have to come up with a totally unique research project over whatever you wanted it to be.  It was presented to my research committee, which they liked overall.  I later found out that MIT had a similar concept (with totally different materials involved) that they were working on shortly after my report.  Their battery is still multi-component, much like my first design was.  Since then in my spare time, I have evolved my concept by two generations into one single phase (both the solar capture and the battery are of the same material, which reduces weight).    I would love to test my concepts out, but getting funding is an issue in this economy though.......

I also have a new theory for a magnetic conversion engine that I want to try out someday (not perpetual motion)...  

And there is another trick up my sleeve, but you will have to wait on that one a bit longer (involves very strange fuels is all I will say at this point)......

[bull]

Nissan Leaf? Car names don't get any gayer than that.

[Vainglory, Esq.]

or the smaller and lighter vehicles (i.e. Smart Car) that will be required for gasoline engines to reach into those efficiencies

FYI, Smart Cars have crap gas mileage.  33 city/41 highway.  For something roughly the size and shape of a nutsack, you might expect it to be more efficient...

[elacruze]

I also have a new theory for a magnetic conversion engine that I want to try out someday (not perpetual motion)...  

And there is another trick up my sleeve, but you will have to wait on that one a bit longer (involves very strange fuels is all I will say at this point)......

No Fair!! 

[Mike DC]

  

"Pound for pound, cars today are far more efficient than their ancestors. But car companies have generally used the fuel efficiency to make cars bigger, heavier and faster."

That pretty well sums up the reason why all these CAFE laws will continue to function as nothing more than govt-mandated luxury options.  The whole public will actually use less net total gasoline when the price goes up.  Not for any other reason.

 

[Chargerrtforme]

"Then he realized something: The Chevy Volt, a plug-in electric car, travels 40 miles on electricity, thanks to a battery weighing 1,000 pounds. Meanwhile, his Volkswagen Jetta travels 40 miles on a gallon of gas -- about 9 pounds."

This paragraph really stuck out in my mind, demonstrating the significant amount of engineering and development still required before batteries will be able to replace gasoline as a viable energy source.

Before you post try to obtain correct information.

"Inside the Chevy Volt's Battery
Advanced automotive batteries like the 400-pound lithium-ion pack going into the Volt bear only a theoretical resemblance to the 12-volt under your hood. "

[1969chargerrtse]

Why does it seem like people are so afraid of advancements?  Like listed before. Let's see where electric or hydrogen cell cars are after the same amount of time we have been playing around with gas cars. Already fresh out of the box electric cars are off the line at 100% torque. Just You Tube electric cars verses gas cars. And one more time,  the Volt is not limited like the little Leafy car. How about some American pride here. Or do we have to wait until gas is over 5:00 again for some appreciation?

[bakerhillpins]

Why does it seem like people are so afraid of advancements?  Like listed before. Let's see where electric or hydrogen cell cars are after the same amount of time we have been playing around with gas cars. Already fresh out of the box electric cars are off the line at 100% torque. Just You Tube electric cars verses gas cars. And one more time,  the Volt is not limited like the little Leafy car. How about some American pride here. Or do we have to wait until gas is over 5:00 again for some appreciation?

 

"Then he realized something: The Chevy Volt, a plug-in electric car, travels 40 miles on electricity, thanks to a battery weighing 1,000 pounds. Meanwhile, his Volkswagen Jetta travels 40 miles on a gallon of gas -- about 9 pounds."

This paragraph really stuck out in my mind, demonstrating the significant amount of engineering and development still required before batteries will be able to replace gasoline as a viable energy source.

Before you post try to obtain correct information.

"Inside the Chevy Volt's Battery
Advanced automotive batteries like the 400-pound lithium-ion pack going into the Volt bear only a theoretical resemblance to the 12-volt under your hood. "

I think you missed the point of his post. While you are probably correct about the battery specs it was more about the fact that the technology is in its early years and less about being spec correct. Though it is a good idea to get your facts in order but that's the failing of the author he quoted. 

[A383Wing]

Nissan Leaf? Car names don't get any gayer than that.

right up there with the Prius....

[1969chargerrtse]

Why does it seem like people are so afraid of advancements?  Like listed before. Let's see where electric or hydrogen cell cars are after the same amount of time we have been playing around with gas cars. Already fresh out of the box electric cars are off the line at 100% torque. Just You Tube electric cars verses gas cars. And one more time,  the Volt is not limited like the little Leafy car. How about some American pride here. Or do we have to wait until gas is over 5:00 again for some appreciation?

 

"Then he realized something: The Chevy Volt, a plug-in electric car, travels 40 miles on electricity, thanks to a battery weighing 1,000 pounds. Meanwhile, his Volkswagen Jetta travels 40 miles on a gallon of gas -- about 9 pounds."

This paragraph really stuck out in my mind, demonstrating the significant amount of engineering and development still required before batteries will be able to replace gasoline as a viable energy source.

Before you post try to obtain correct information.

"Inside the Chevy Volt's Battery
Advanced automotive batteries like the 400-pound lithium-ion pack going into the Volt bear only a theoretical resemblance to the 12-volt under your hood. "

I think you missed the point of his post. While you are probably correct about the battery specs it was more about the fact that the technology is in its early years and less about being spec correct. Though it is a good idea to get your facts in order but that's the failing of the author he quoted. 

But what good is any point if the information used to make the point is incorrect?

[Mike DC]

  
A liquid combustible fuel like gasoline is essentially the most compact energy storage medium we can come up with.  (At least on such a large cheap scale anyway.)  If it didn't exist in nature then we would probably have invented it and been extremely proud of ourselves.  In the long run I think we will want to stay on this type of storage medium no matter what additions and changes we make.  Maybe gas, maybe hydrogen, maybe something else, but probably a combustible liquid of some kind.  


However the advantages of running an all-electric drivetrain are too hard to ignore.  It's like the difference between running your house's furnace only when more heat is needed, versus running it 24/7 and just directing the heat straight out the chimney half the time.  

I'm not sure about running half a ton of batteries in every car & truck on the road.  But I could imagine most people running a smaller battery pack that was being recharged by the gas engine more often.

[Cooter]

Until they can come up with a battery powered truck/SUV that will tow what I need, I'll stick to my good 'ol fashioned, Gas burnin', foul smellin', Not so Green, Loud piped, American V8....


Now, on to the style side of things....When they can get out of these "Boxy", Idiot looking, Gay mobiles like The import world seems to turning out today, then and only then, will I consider "Advancement"....Pretty sad when a few guys take a Smart car, dump a Hybusa (Spelling?) engine in it and run hgih 10's in the 1/4 with it...Yeah, it's fast, but I wouldn't claim it in a parking lot if I had to walk....

[Chargerrtforme]

"I'm not sure about running half a ton of batteries in every car & truck on the road.  But I could imagine most people running a smaller battery pack that was being recharged by the gas engine more often."

Again with comments from mis information from the start.

[Mike DC]

I'm aware that the Volt's battery pack is not "half a ton". 

But the average vehicle on the American roads today needs a bit more power than a Volt does.  And some of the most gas-guzzling vehicles out there are beast-of-burden working trucks & SUVs that weigh over 5000 pounds.  I doubt a 400-lb battery pack designed for a Volt is gonna cover that.
   

[daves68]

Why does it seem like people are so afraid of advancements?  Like listed before. Let's see where electric or hydrogen cell cars are after the same amount of time we have been playing around with gas cars. Already fresh out of the box electric cars are off the line at 100% torque. Just You Tube electric cars verses gas cars. And one more time,  the Volt is not limited like the little Leafy car. How about some American pride here. Or do we have to wait until gas is over 5:00 again for some appreciation?

We the people are not all necessarily afraid of advancement, depending on the definition of it. If advancement is defined as a wimpy little vehicle that is uncomfortable, less safe because of size, unable to handle a towed load, and is way more expensive to buy and operate, we will not joyfully embrace the concept. Added to the mix is the thought of some agenda driven, pencil neck geek(s) in Washington mandating that we WILL start liking it or else just makes it more unpalatalbe. And that, my friend is not fear of advancement but rather fear of anarchy. Sorry to sound political but it's the truth.

[bakerhillpins]

But what good is any point if the information used to make the point is incorrect?

I hear ya, My not so well stated point was that Tricky Lugnuts' main reason for quoting the excerpt was not the specs but rather the apiffany that we are still in the very early stages of alternate energy vehicles. (fundamentally, the fact that the #s were an order of magnitude off wasn't truly relevant)

[elacruze]

Until they can come up with a battery powered truck/SUV that will tow what I need, I'll stick to my good 'ol fashioned, Gas burnin', foul smellin', Not so Green, Loud piped, American V8....


Now, on to the style side of things....When they can get out of these "Boxy", Idiot looking, Gay mobiles like The import world seems to turning out today, then and only then, will I consider "Advancement"....Pretty sad when a few guys take a Smart car, dump a Hybusa (Spelling?) engine in it and run hgih 10's in the 1/4 with it...Yeah, it's fast, but I wouldn't claim it in a parking lot if I had to walk....

You make some good points here. Nobody is trying (yet) to mass-market an electric car as anything but 'green'. I have no inherent aversion to electric, in fact I worked forklifts for some years and like it a lot in some regards. But I don't buy cars to save gas, I buy cars that do what I want and a very large part of what I want is something that looks good, hauls ass and sounds high-performance.

Who will be able to tell the difference between a high-performance electric and a slow one, at the stoplight?

[Chad L. Magee]

I also have a new theory for a magnetic conversion engine that I want to try out someday (not perpetual motion)...  

And there is another trick up my sleeve, but you will have to wait on that one a bit longer (involves very strange fuels is all I will say at this point)......

No Fair!! 

I'll give you a hint:  It is something that gets thrown away all the time....

[tricky lugnuts]

Chargerrtforme:

OK - so the Volt battery weighs 375 pounds, not the 1,000 pounds quoted in the NYT article. Keep cool. I simply posted a link to an article I thought some people on a classic car forum might find interesting, and pulled a quote about the challenges electric cars face.

Didn't mean to pee in anybody's Wheaties or add to misinformation machine.

But researching the "lies" about the weight of the Volt battery and the alleged 9-pound gallon of gas would also have pointed out that a gallon of gas at room temperature only weights about 6.3 pounds, at least according to fueleconomy.gov.

Maybe that's misinformation, too? Everyone knows the NYT is a huge, afraid of Yes-We-Can change propaganda machine hell-bent on destroying the electric car and all forms of alternative energy . . .  Um - have you read a Thomas Friedman column in the past 10 years, or am I just missing something?

The whole point of the NYT article was that a gasoline engine won the energy efficiency car contest, beating electric cars, and that both energy forms - batteries and gasoline - will face significant challenges if auto manufacturers are going to try and make production passenger cars and trucks that get 60-plus miles per gallon.

So, 1000/9 equals 111
And 375/6.3 equals 59.5

So, gasoline is only 60 times more efficient at storing enough energy to travel 40 miles. Your electric car has made some progress as a result of clearing away the propaganda, but still has challenges to overcome. And keep in mind, Mr. Efficiency, that my god-given legs can walk 40 miles on a quarter-pounder with cheese. How's that for efficient?

I realize you are proud of the Volt and its battery, and see electric vehicles as the future of the world, weaning us off the evil oil - most of which we get from Canada, Mexico, Saudi Arabia and Nigeria. With a little self-restraint and conservation (ugh, what a disgusting word!), we could probably wean ourselves off oil from the last two.

Instead we will burn the last of our coal reserves, leveling Appalachia and parts of the west to generate electricity in dirty old coal-fired power plants, then figure out where to get all the lithium needed to store that electricity in inefficient car batteries, so people can drive 40 miles on a charge without having to buy gas, and feel better, somehow, about their reduced carbon footprint and newfound freedom from mostly non-Middle East oil.

As far as giving electric vehicles as long to develop as gasoline-powered vehicles, do some more research on electric cars and find out how long they've actually been around. I really think to a large extent we've already done that. Cause if I'm not mistaken, the electric streetcar used to be how a significant number of people in U.S. cities used to get around. Aside from some toll disputes, it worked great from everything I've heard.

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectrica.htm
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-timeline.html

I'm not trying to knock people for trying to find better ways of doing things - magnetic conversion engines, mag-lev trains, solar power, fuel-cell technology - and I'm not saying those things will never amount to anything in terms of practical benefits. I'm simply pointing out that a gas-powered car just proved more efficient than electric cars in an efficiency contest. My bad. More misinformation.

[Cooter]

I for one can't wait till all the "Tree huggers" are driving round in those little gaymobiles, as it will leave PLENTY of fuel for my Gas guzzling, fun factor off the scale, AMERICAN Musclecar....

[1969chargerrtse]

"I for one can't wait till all the "Tree huggers" are driving round in those little gaymobiles, as it will leave PLENTY of fuel for my Gas guzzling, fun factor off the scale, AMERICAN Musclecar.... "