Chop Cut Rebuild is doing a 69 charger this season.......

[tan top]

There are a couple of considerations about the XP Hemi which I believe are being overlooked or intentionally disregarded by a few members here who simply want to "gin up" this non-issue.  I suggest you take their comments with a grain of salt.

First consider what percentage of this car is using "factory licensed" replacement parts – not LKQ, CAPA or imitation parts. AMD licenses a great deal of Chrysler authorized and inspected parts. Chrysler also makes a profit from the sale of these parts! They are sold to the public, as being authentic and meeting the 1969 standards. No modern process is applied such as; double dipped zinc coating, or modern metal thickness, in an effort to keep them authentic to Chrysler's original standards.

Secondly, I take exception to calling this a "re-body" or replacement body. This was, and is a RESTORATION.  We did not turn a second car into the XP Hemi. A more appropriate term may be "re-skinned" or "rebuilt" – not "re-bodied", for the simple reason an entirely new body was not used. A number of posters are comparing it to a Dynacorn body shell, which is not correct and not fair. I have built three Dynacorn shells and I can assure you, this is not in the same situation.  This car has components in it which rolled down the Chrysler assembly line – including the most important part as deemed by law: the entire firewall dash with the factory installed VIN plate. In addition, front rails, A – pillar, roof substructure components have all been retained. A Dynacorn body does not have a single component that came from Detroit or from the period the car represents and they certainly do not contain a manufacturers VIN tag!

Third, the partial ID numbers from the original car were part of an original section of sheet metal that did not require replacement. The section was not damaged and was saved. There are some here who are insistent that there wasn't enough effort made to save original panels or sections of the original car because we were showcasing sponsors products. If we had saved the original driver's door, as some are  insistent could have been done, and the door contained an ID number or plaque, would they also insist that it should not have been installed? I doubt it. Yet, saving it would have required extensive metal replacement or a patch panel made of NEW metal. Whose standards do we need to meet before what was done is acceptable: a couple of members of the MOPAR community? Or the law? To the very best of my knowledge, there is no law which states numbers other than the VIN cannot be saved and retained and grafted onto a new part. We treated the new trunk rain gutter piece and the top radiator support as a patch panel, rather than replacing the entire part, we left the section with the ID number on the original car. NOTHING was re-stamped. Those numbers came with this car ...and they are still with this car!

Fourth, the work performed on this car was done in the open light of day. Not in some back barn out of view from the public. The XP Hemi will also be known from this point forward as the car restored on Chop Cut Rebuild. Its restoration process will have been seen by millions of people around the world.  We have been and continue to be straight forward with what happened to the car and the details are evident to anyone who cares to watch the series. The idea that it could possibly have been done to deceive the next buyer is both preposterous and insulting!

End of rant! Thanks for enduring it!!

agreed !  

all this  exterior sheet metal that has been replaced , ( i appreciate more than that was replaced on this build , )) , but doors hoods , deck lid roof, rockers !! yes good to have all original parts , but ! don't mean much to me !! just supposing the car was rolled in a wreck in the 70s & repaired with new sheet metal !! its still the same car !!   etc ...
    just like cars that are wrecked today are repaired , just so happens  that we can now get new  factory panels in 2010 for our mopars ,
  cars still the same ,  rebody is another body shell used !! not the original one been repaired ,
  not sure where i'm going with this , but thought i would add my view
 

[Charger-Bodie]

There are a couple of considerations about the XP Hemi which I believe are being overlooked or intentionally disregarded by a few members here who simply want to "gin up" this non-issue.  I suggest you take their comments with a grain of salt.

First consider what percentage of this car is using "factory licensed" replacement parts – not LKQ, CAPA or imitation parts. AMD licenses a great deal of Chrysler authorized and inspected parts. Chrysler also makes a profit from the sale of these parts! They are sold to the public, as being authentic and meeting the 1969 standards. No modern process is applied such as; double dipped zinc coating, or modern metal thickness, in an effort to keep them authentic to Chrysler's original standards.

Secondly, I take exception to calling this a "re-body" or replacement body. This was, and is a RESTORATION.  We did not turn a second car into the XP Hemi. A more appropriate term may be "re-skinned" or "rebuilt" – not "re-bodied", for the simple reason an entirely new body was not used. A number of posters are comparing it to a Dynacorn body shell, which is not correct and not fair. I have built three Dynacorn shells and I can assure you, this is not in the same situation.  This car has components in it which rolled down the Chrysler assembly line – including the most important part as deemed by law: the entire firewall dash with the factory installed VIN plate. In addition, front rails, A – pillar, roof substructure components have all been retained. A Dynacorn body does not have a single component that came from Detroit or from the period the car represents and they certainly do not contain a manufacturers VIN tag!

Third, the partial ID numbers from the original car were part of an original section of sheet metal that did not require replacement. The section was not damaged and was saved. There are some here who are insistent that there wasn't enough effort made to save original panels or sections of the original car because we were showcasing sponsors products. If we had saved the original driver's door, as some are  insistent could have been done, and the door contained an ID number or plaque, would they also insist that it should not have been installed? I doubt it. Yet, saving it would have required extensive metal replacement or a patch panel made of NEW metal. Whose standards do we need to meet before what was done is acceptable: a couple of members of the MOPAR community? Or the law? To the very best of my knowledge, there is no law which states numbers other than the VIN cannot be saved and retained and grafted onto a new part. We treated the new trunk rain gutter piece and the top radiator support as a patch panel, rather than replacing the entire part, we left the section with the ID number on the original car. NOTHING was re-stamped. Those numbers came with this car ...and they are still with this car!

Fourth, the work performed on this car was done in the open light of day. Not in some back barn out of view from the public. The XP Hemi will also be known from this point forward as the car restored on Chop Cut Rebuild. Its restoration process will have been seen by millions of people around the world.  We have been and continue to be straight forward with what happened to the car and the details are evident to anyone who cares to watch the series. The idea that it could possibly have been done to deceive the next buyer is both preposterous and insulting!

End of rant! Thanks for enduring it!!

agreed !  

all this  exterior sheet metal that has been replaced , ( i appreciate more than that was replaced on this build , )) , but doors hoods , deck lid roof, rockers !! yes good to have all original parts , but ! don't mean much to me !! just supposing the car was rolled in a wreck in the 70s & repaired with new sheet metal !! its still the same car !!   etc ...
   just like cars that are wrecked today are repaired , just so happens  that we can now get new  factory panels in 2010 for our mopars ,
 cars still the same ,  rebody is another body shell used !! not the original one been repaired ,
 not sure where i'm going with this , but thought i would add my view
 

Very good points Steve.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

all the metal work was done in Georgia.

Aha! Useful information at last. Georgia does have a provision for 'restoring' numbers. Georgia VIN laws at http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudGA.shtml

Some interesting quotes from it;

(2) "Identification number" means an identifying number, serial number, engine number, or other distinguishing number or mark placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer or by authority of the commissioner or in accordance with the laws of another state or country.

§ 40-4-23. When identification number not deemed falsified

An identification number may be placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer in the regular course of business or placed or restored on a vehicle or engine by authority of the commissioner without violating this article. An identification number so placed or restored is not falsified.

(2)(A) The registered owner of any motor vehicle which is damaged to the extent that its restoration to an operable condition would require the replacement of the front clip assembly, which includes the fenders, hood, and bumper; the rear clip assembly, which includes the quarter panels, the floor panel assembly, and the roof assembly, excluding a soft top; the frame; and a complete side, which includes the fenders, door, and quarter panel shall mail or deliver the certificate of title to the commissioner for cancellation.

The key phrase seems to be 'by authority of the commissioner ' though.  

The car is not registered in Georgia, so its rules are mute. The car will be registered in California, where it will be inspected and verified by a state authorized VIN inspector BEFORE a California registration will be issued.

Are the rules silent, or is it a "moot" point?

[Charger440RDN]

Well I have to ask the people that don't like what was done, what if it was YOUR Charger that was being restored and the dash area where the VIN is attached was rusted beyond repair? Does that mean you don't repair that area and re-attach the VIN?   Do you just junk the whole car and forget the restoration?

That's unrealistic and I'm glad this car was saved. 5 more years outside and about the only thing left of this car would have been the VIN tag.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

all the metal work was done in Georgia.

Aha! Useful information at last. Georgia does have a provision for 'restoring' numbers. Georgia VIN laws at http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudGA.shtml

Some interesting quotes from it;

(2) "Identification number" means an identifying number, serial number, engine number, or other distinguishing number or mark placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer or by authority of the commissioner or in accordance with the laws of another state or country.

§ 40-4-23. When identification number not deemed falsified

An identification number may be placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer in the regular course of business or placed or restored on a vehicle or engine by authority of the commissioner without violating this article. An identification number so placed or restored is not falsified.

(2)(A) The registered owner of any motor vehicle which is damaged to the extent that its restoration to an operable condition would require the replacement of the front clip assembly, which includes the fenders, hood, and bumper; the rear clip assembly, which includes the quarter panels, the floor panel assembly, and the roof assembly, excluding a soft top; the frame; and a complete side, which includes the fenders, door, and quarter panel shall mail or deliver the certificate of title to the commissioner for cancellation.

The key phrase seems to be 'by authority of the commissioner ' though. 

Really?? I would think the key phrase is, "or by authority of the commissioner or in accordance with the laws of another state or country." and therefore making it impossible to sort to any real standard  

[ccr-host]

no matter how you look at it....Its parts to fix a car! Even in a "rebody" situation...parts to fix a car.

As far as the numbers being transfered....big deal. They stay with the car this way. Not in an envelope,but in the place where they belong .

I think the whole issue of "rebody" is blown way out of proportion anyway..   Its parts to fix a car and as long as you are up front about the repairs then so be it.

Yes Brian, but if Jay Leno had this car he would of taken the time to make sure as much of the original car was preserved.  As he does with his other classics's.  This was/is a real rare and special car and the only reason
such a large portion was replaced was because of time and money due to the show.  This car deserved better.
What about the originaL doors with the Hemi badge holes?  That would of been well worth the work to save them.
This subject along with the Vin will never have a unanimous agreement.

I agree there will be discord amongst purists. But, the laws should be firm and clear, which they are not.  There is a federal re-body law developed for transport truck roll over's that doesn't specify transport trucks. Which means it should apply to any motor vehicle. But, it is largely ignored by the states   although; Montana, Arizona, and New Mexico, seem to abide by it. I have spent many hours discussing this subject with professionals who make replacement parts, builders who use them, executives from the factories, and lawmakers who are trying to get their heads around this subject. I belong to SEMA's restoration committee (ARMO) and have reviewed many of their briefs sent to state legislators.

As for how Jay Leno would restore this car, I think he would have done nearly the same things. Perhaps, he would have sought out more NOS than we did. Jay does not restore cars which have an abundance of aftermarket parts available. Jay's team hand rolls panels and replaces them. Which means he also keeps only a percentage of the original car and worse.... He uses parts not licensed by the original manufacturer.  

[ccr-host]

all the metal work was done in Georgia.

Aha! Useful information at last. Georgia does have a provision for 'restoring' numbers. Georgia VIN laws at http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudGA.shtml

Some interesting quotes from it;

(2) "Identification number" means an identifying number, serial number, engine number, or other distinguishing number or mark placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer or by authority of the commissioner or in accordance with the laws of another state or country.

§ 40-4-23. When identification number not deemed falsified

An identification number may be placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer in the regular course of business or placed or restored on a vehicle or engine by authority of the commissioner without violating this article. An identification number so placed or restored is not falsified.

(2)(A) The registered owner of any motor vehicle which is damaged to the extent that its restoration to an operable condition would require the replacement of the front clip assembly, which includes the fenders, hood, and bumper; the rear clip assembly, which includes the quarter panels, the floor panel assembly, and the roof assembly, excluding a soft top; the frame; and a complete side, which includes the fenders, door, and quarter panel shall mail or deliver the certificate of title to the commissioner for cancellation.

The key phrase seems to be 'by authority of the commissioner ' though.  

The car is not registered in Georgia, so its rules are mute. The car will be registered in California, where it will be inspected and verified by a state authorized VIN inspector BEFORE a California registration will be issued.

Are the rules silent, or is it a "moot" point?

A little of both I think! 

[1969chargerrtse]

Well I have to ask the people that don't like what was done, what if it was YOUR Charger that was being restored and the dash area where the VIN is attached was rusted beyond repair? Does that mean you don't repair that area and re-attach the VIN?   Do you just junk the whole car and forget the restoration?

That's unrealistic and I'm glad this car was saved. 5 more years outside and about the only thing left of this car would have been the VIn tag.

"5 more years outside and about the only thing left of this car would have been the VIn tag."

That is true. 

[The70RT]

I see both sides. Great job on the car, I would have went with a new roof and full quarter if they were available when I did my work but I am poor so I saved what I could. Yeah the car would have been maybe worth more later but to some money is no option anyway and with publicity it probably will still be worth big bucks. On the other side now this kind of opens up a can of worms for others who do the same way will say "The XP Hemi  car was done this way" then later down the line after a few owners they don't know what they really have.

[General_01]

I have been reading this with interest. This is what I get from it. People are looking at this subject as dealing with just this car and others are looking at how things that were done to this car can affect how other people restoring a car rationalize their decisions.

This car was done out in the open and as stated by several people there is no doubt as to what was done. I think commiting fraud with this particular car would be next to impossible.

I think the problem is that somebody in their garage does the same thing and rationalizes it with "they did it on that TV show". The problem is that there is not video proof of what was done for all to see and if he "forgets" to disclose this to the next buyer or it gets forgotten a few buyers down the road somebody is going to get burned.

I also would like to say that stamping a block with the factory font to make it look like the original block is just plain wrong, even if it isn't technically illegal. I can see stamping it with a random code to tie it to your vehicle is smart. Protect your assets. But there is only one reason to stamp it with the VIN if it was not the original motor. We all know what that is.

I think the car looks great, but I think many problems can arise when people do not look at the whole picture rather than at just the project they are working on at the moment. For this project, what was done was well documented for all to see. I commend you for being up front and honest. The problem that will arise is that others will only take a part of what you did (welding the original stampings into the replacement part) and rationalize it's legitimacy while forgetting the full disclosure part.

Lastly, I would like to say I do not consider this a re-body. Replacement parts were used. They did not take the VIN and fender tag and other ID numbers from the rusted car and put them into a totally different car.

[Ghoste]

I guess until I change my idea of what defines a rebody then I can't much change my perspective.  Sorry, I know it angers you but I just don't see it as a reskin.  I'm not inflexible but for now I have to go with that.
To give you the benefit of the doubt and to establish (hopefully) the same from you towards me, I cannot get the tv program here.  I have to draw my conclusions based on limited evidence, but if that's all I have then that is what I am running with.  I realize it pisses you Dan, but...

Hey, if it helps I have noted that the car looks great and I have always upheld as much as a narrowminded prick like me can the idea of saving it.

[General_01]

I guess until I change my idea of what defines a rebody then I can't much change my perspective.  Sorry, I know it angers you but I just don't see it as a reskin.  I'm not inflexible but for now I have to go with that.

So say a car was in a front end collision back in 1985 and had the front fenders, inner fenders, front valance, hood and grill and bumper replaced is rear ended in 2009 and now has the AMD rear quarters, trunk, trunk lid and rear valance replaced. Is this now a re-body or is it excempt because of the time between replacing most of the body panels?

Just some food for thought.

[Ghoste]

Been chewing on it for some time.  Yes, it opens up the old paradox about great great great grandfathers axe (handed down for generations and has only had the head and handle replaced).  There is no clear cut definition and no easy answer, it's a very gray area right now.
And for the record, no I would certainly not consider that to be the original vehicle anymore.  Although I also don't know what it should be considered either as it certainly should still be on the road.  Especially after survivng two accidents that were so horrendous that each time exactly one half of the entire car was replaced.

[ccr-host]

Been chewing on it for some time.  Yes, it opens up the old paradox about great great great grandfathers axe (handed down for generations and has only had the head and handle replaced).  There is no clear cut definition and no easy answer, it's a very gray area right now.

Ghoste, there is a clear definition between "re-body" and restored, re-skinned, replaced. You're just not accepting of the definition, which is your prerogative. It's very simple: this is NOT a Dynacorn body replacement. It is an extensive restoration. This car has many of it's original parts - including sheet metal that has a partial VIN. The percentage of original parts may not be to your liking, in which case I would suggest you not purchase it if it is sold. But, it does fall into the legal definition of retaining it's original registration and VIN. There is no "gray" area... Perhaps we should start calling you the "Gray Ghoste"? ...Just kidding.

[Ghoste]

The rebody existed long before Dynacorn so I don't use that as the benchnmark but yes, I do define it on how much of the original car still exists.  And quite frankly I would love to be in a position to buy the car when the opportunity arises.  Although I would probably return a lot of the suspension and drivetrain components to a more stock configuration and make it clear to everyone that I felt I owned a rebodied car.  But if that happens, it too shall be my perogative.

[ccr-host]

The rebody existed long before Dynacorn so I don't use that as the benchnmark but yes, I do define it on how much of the original car still exists.  And quite frankly I would love to be in a position to buy the car when the opportunity arises.  Although I would probably return a lot of the suspension and drivetrain components to a more stock configuration and make it clear to everyone that I felt I owned a rebodied car.  But if that happens, it too shall be my perogative.

So, what is YOUR acceptable percentage? And if the car falls short of your standards, what then? Should it be re-registered as a 2010? If so, then by law an original style motor would not be acceptable, emissions standards would not be acceptable either. Creates quite the dilemma if the target moves from person to person, doesn't it?

[hemi24]

Oh heaven forbid it's titled as a 2010 the winner there is the tax man !

[Ghoste]

The rebody existed long before Dynacorn so I don't use that as the benchnmark but yes, I do define it on how much of the original car still exists.  And quite frankly I would love to be in a position to buy the car when the opportunity arises.  Although I would probably return a lot of the suspension and drivetrain components to a more stock configuration and make it clear to everyone that I felt I owned a rebodied car.  But if that happens, it too shall be my perogative.

So, what is YOUR acceptable percentage? And if the car falls short of your standards, what then? Should it be re-registered as a 2010? If so, then by law an original style motor would not be acceptable, emissions standards would not be acceptable either. Creates quite the dilemma if the target moves from person to person, doesn't it?

THAT'S why I call it gray.  There isn't a defined answer yet and there needs to somehow be.  I know what the law and I also know that even the briefest of looks will pull up all kinds of questions about numbers and matching and being defrauded, not to mention the countless ads crowing loudly about numbers matching.  That is also why I said that at one time it didn't matter but in todays world with amounts of money being placed on the table, it becomes  a big deal.

[1969chargerrtse]

I know everyone is stuck on the Vin and I understand that but does anyone agree with me this car was so special, one of a kind that all messures should of been taken to keep every last piece original.?  I wish those doors with the original Hemi badge holes were kept on the car.
Brian's car is different, he created a clone ( Master piece   ) from scratch.  this thing is a Legend to me.

[Ghoste]

I've stated as much several times now.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

My 2 pennies worth...

A) The original "skeleton" of the XP Hemicar was used in the "restoration".   Panels were replaced that were too far gone to "feasibly" save without miracle metal work.  The partial body VIN's were grafted onto said replacement panels which attach to the original "skeleton" framework of the original car....

My definition/opinion of above example A....  RESTORATION


B) A donor "skeleton" was used that was in better shape than the original XP Hemicar skeleton.  Panels were replaced that were too far gone to "feasibly" save without miracle metal work.  The partial body VIN's were grafted onto said replacement panels which attach to the donor "skeleton" framework of the donor car....


My definition/opinion of above example B..... RE-BODY


I am/was lead to believe that CCR used the original skeleton of the XP Hemicar for its restoration. Example A  


PS----I still think it was just a typo  

[Ghoste]

Oh great, more controversy.

FWIW, I agree with your definitions Chris.  My hangup with this car has been what I alluded to earlier as far as not being able to see the program and having to rely on what info I could get as to what was retained or replaced.  It was my understanding that little to nothing of the original skeleton remained but if I am wrong then i concede on the "rebody" term.

[DC_1]

PS----I still think it was a typo  

Then why did it have torque boxes(albeit mostly disintegrated) and holes in the door where the hemi badge is mounted?.....answer me that smarty pants!

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

PS----I still think it was a typo 

Then why did it have torque boxes(albeit mostly disintegrated) and holes in the door where the hemi badge is mounted?.....answer me that smarty pants!

Because the typo was the "P" in place of the "S"

PS---dont insult me by calling me smart!

[DC_1]

Sure, get all technical now!