Chop Cut Rebuild is doing a 69 charger this season.......

[nvrbdn]

congrats you have a beautiful car. im loving the show on it. thanks for sharing it jim

[1969chargerrtse]

Great thread, where have I been?

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Shafi great job on the car & its good to hear that there still needs to be some tweaking done to it.

Just noticed the pleating on the seats....nice touch & thanks for the larger pics.

Car has come a long way since that original email you sent me back in February of '09

[Alaskan_TA]

California VIN laws at http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudCA.shtml

Awsome link! Thanks Alaskan.

My pleasure.

I assume you read that, so do you honestly feel you are in compliance? I do not know for sure, but I heard the numbers were swapped to the new sheetmetal in California. Is this true?

[KEISLER]

My pleasure.

I assume you read that, so do you honestly feel you are in compliance? I do not know for sure, but I heard the numbers were swapped to the new sheetmetal in California. Is this true?

Alaskan T/A,
What's the point to your inquiry? If you have something useful to contribute, please do so.  

[Alaskan_TA]

I am pretty sure that swapping body numbers is illegal, so I am asking.

Can you prove that swapping the body numbers was legal? 

[KEISLER]

I am pretty sure that swapping body numbers is illegal, so I am asking.

Can you prove that swapping the body numbers was legal? 

I am pretty sure that you are stirring up trouble, and I don't have to prove anything to you.  If you are so concerned about it, you can go spend money on a lawyer to research it on your own time.  Geez ...

[Ghoste]

Being a high profile rebody though (or at least one done in a televised format) you have to appreciate the implications within the hobby.  There are the Dynacorn shells on the possible horizon for Mopars and now with the huge and badly needed array of panels from AMD, rebodying becomes a huge concern.  As you are well aware the huge price hike in Mopars during the last musclecar boom made ironclad numbers and undeniable provenance a big deal as the cars became investments.  Fortunately for us, Mopars were a little harder to fake and easier to decode than many Fords and most GM musclecars.  It would look as though some of these advantages may soon disappear.
Now before you get too upset with my position Shafi, you need to know that I have openly raised the question of whether or not a car that (I think) is historically significant should be exempt from some of this rebody disdain.  I have always been outspoken about VIN swapping but I have also found the saga of the XP Hemi to be more than a little exciting. 

[Alaskan_TA]

I am pretty sure that swapping body numbers is illegal, so I am asking.

Can you prove that swapping the body numbers was legal?  

I am pretty sure that you are stirring up trouble, and I don't have to prove anything to you.  If you are so concerned about it, you can go spend money on a lawyer to research it on your own time.  Geez ...

Well, if it was illegal, then any trouble is not mine since I was not involved with the alleged swap.

I do try to keep folks out of trouble when I can though.

A lot of folks seem to be assuming that the situation with moving the old numbers on this car to new sheet metal is / was legal since it was apparently shown on TV.

I do not have cable or watch TV, so I have not seen it myself.

If it is illegal, then the folks here need to know.

If it is legal, then we all need to know that too.

Can you show in any way that swapping the old body numbers to new sheet metal was legal? Was it done in CA?

I am just asking for some clarification, that is all. If it was done in CA, then I do not see how it could be legal based on CA law, but I know state laws vary at times & I am not a lawyer.

[KEISLER]

The issue of legitimacy is an important one.  I have heard that a number of "matching numbers" cars are being faked by greedy bastards looking to prey on honest folks.  But the issue of misrepresentation which IS illegal is not the point in question here.  XP HEMI has been restored with a lot of new materials, some of which is the sheetmetal.  To the best of my understanding, there is nothing illegal about replacing the numbers to the car to maintain its VIN tracability.  Nor, would there be anything illegal to stamp the VIN number on the block, trans, diff, each door, trunk lid, hood, etch it in the glass, etc, etc.  This is a matter of protecting one's assets.

BUT, it is a completely different matter when someone knowingly MISREPRESENTS what they are selling.  Whether it is a fake Rolex watch, or a non-numbers matching 1 of 227 1969 Dodge Charger 426 hemi 4-speed car. 

I recommend the topic of "what is and what shouldn't be" be continued over to the hamtramack vin blog or whereever it can be analyzed to the nats ass detail by those that care to dwell in it, and let those of us that wish to discuss the XP HEMI CHARGER and the accomplishments by the men and women who have sweated over it for the past 7 months be seen, in all its glory and detail.

[Alaskan_TA]

The issue of legitimacy is an important one.  I have heard that a number of "matching numbers" cars are being faked by greedy bastards looking to prey on honest folks.  But the issue of misrepresentation which IS illegal is not the point in question here.  XP HEMI has been restored with a lot of new materials, some of which is the sheetmetal.  To the best of my understanding, there is nothing illegal about replacing the numbers to the car to maintain its VIN tracability.  Nor, would there be anything illegal to stamp the VIN number on the block, trans, diff, each door, trunk lid, hood, etch it in the glass, etc, etc.  This is a matter of protecting one's assets.

BUT, it is a completely different matter when someone knowingly MISREPRESENTS what they are selling.  Whether it is a fake Rolex watch, or a non-numbers matching 1 of 227 1969 Dodge Charger 426 hemi 4-speed car. 

I recommend the topic of "what is and what shouldn't be" be continued over to the hamtramack vin blog or whereever it can be analyzed to the nats ass detail by those that care to dwell in it, and let those of us that wish to discuss the XP HEMI CHARGER and the accomplishments by the men and women who have sweated over it for the past 7 months be seen, in all its glory and detail.

One point, with this quote;

But the issue of misrepresentation which IS illegal is not the point in question here.

Why move the body numbers unless someone wanted to misrepresent them to appear as original panels?

If it is  / was illegal, then the only accomplishment was documenting the evidence via television for someone in law enforcement to persue. That would be pretty funny actually.

If it was legal, I would love to see the law that allows it, or a legal opinion from a judge or LEO that says it is OK. 

[KEISLER]

XP HEMI VIDEO CLIP from SEMA
I will put a couple more up later...

[Ghoste]

It isn't illegal to restamp a block?  If it isn't illegal it sure as hell is unethica!  Why would you even suggest that it's okay to do something like that?  As for wanting the discussion to continue somewhere else, the unfortunate fact is that the car raises the question and it begs discussion and well, this is a discussion forum.  No one is denying the hard work by everyone to prepare the car and it looks great just as several people have told you.  But it is a Charger and if you check around this site you will quickly discover that we are passionate about that topic even when it means discussing the warts that certain Chargers may or may not have.  Just because you may not care about the VIN details doesn't mean there may not be several of us here that do.

[Alaskan_TA]

Ghoste, just to take this quote a little further;

Nor, would there be anything illegal to stamp the VIN number on the block, trans, diff, each door, trunk lid, hood, etch it in the glass, etc, etc.  This is a matter of protecting one's assets.

This has some truth to it. I know that Arizona as one example has a program in place where folks in law enforcement will add VINs to cars to aid in theft prevention / recovery. Etching glass is one example, marking original body parts is another.

Stamping a block with new numbers is not something they would ever do. 

[KEISLER]

It isn't illegal to restamp a block?  If it isn't illegal it sure as hell is unethica!  Why would you even suggest that it's okay to do something like that?  As for wanting the discussion to continue somewhere else, the unfortunate fact is that the car raises the question and it begs discussion and well, this is a discussion forum.  No one is denying the hard work by everyone to prepare the car and it looks great just as several people have told you.  But it is a Charger and if you check around this site you will quickly discover that we are passionate about that topic even when it means discussing the warts that certain Chargers may or may not have.  Just because you may not care about the VIN details doesn't mean there may not be several of us here that do.

Unethical?  I don't think so.  What is unethical is trying to replicate the VIN number in any fashion AND passing it off as ORIGINAL.  THAT is unethical.   There is nothing wrong about placing the serial number of the car onto any and all parts of value that could be stolen and traded.  This IS common practice to protect one's assets, and allows law enforcement to track down stolen goods and hopefully bring the crooks to justice.

Replacing the radiator yoke and trunk rail numbers back to the repaired body would allow law enforcement to help track down the car in case it was stolen because these numbers are the officially recorded places on the body where the VIN can be associated for identification purposes.

As for the appropriate place to hold a lengthy discussion, or sub thread on VIN numbers et al, I don't see it being this thread.  I am not saying it doesn't have a place, and I AM interested in the subject, as I've owned many '68-70 Charger R/T cars, among other Mopar muscle cars.  I believe it IS a worthy subject of much consideration ... just NOT here.

[Ghoste]

 
If you have no intention of passing it off as original then why not leave it unstamped?  Come on Shafi, tell me one reason for restamping a block that has nothing to do with deceiving someone.  I can't believe you would even suggest that.
If you told me that you endorse the idea of stamping the VIN on the engine in somewher other than the factory location in something other than the factory font with some other message as well like "this non original engine belongs to vehicle XXXXXXX. then I could buy it.  Your statement was simply that it's okay to restamp blocks and I think you meant it the way I took it.  If you truly din't I apologize but right now I'm unconvinced.

[KEISLER]

Ghoste, just to take this quote a little further;
Stamping a block with new numbers is not something they would ever do. 

That's your opinion, and you know what they say ...  Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.

A warranty block had an unmachined area for the VIN number to be stamped.  So here's my opinion - the factory left this area unstamped so the dealership or owner could place identification.  An engine is expensive, and stealing one is grand theft.  

[Alaskan_TA]

As for the appropriate place to hold a lengthy discussion, or sub thread on VIN numbers et al, I don't see it being this thread.  I am not saying it doesn't have a place, and I AM interested in the subject, as I've owned many '68-70 Charger R/T cars, among other Mopar muscle cars.  I believe it IS a worthy subject of much consideration ... just NOT here.

Why not?

The car evidently / allegedly had it's original body numbers swapped on national TV. The car, the show & the numbers in question have been discussed in this thread, so why talk about it anywhere else?

Are you scared of what might happen? Seizure? Confiscation of the numbers? Cancelation of the title? Cancelation of insurance? Loss of sponsorship? Something else maybe?

I do not feel it can be swept under the rug myself. If there is a legal precedent, then we need to know.

[Ghoste]

Did the factory leave it blank to be restamped or did they leave it blank because they had no real way of knowing what car it was going into and they didn't want to be party to an illegal activity?  Even if they did leave it blank to be restamped, do you still think it's right to restamp in order to make it a "numbers matching" engine?  You know very well that has nothing to do with reducing grand theft and everything to do with artificially inflating the value of a vehicle.  Hey wait a minute, that's kind of like theft isn't it?  Oh the irony.

[KEISLER]

If you have no intention of passing it off as original then why not leave it unstamped?  Come on Shafi, tell me one reason for restamping a block that has nothing to do with deceiving someone.  I can't believe you would even suggest that.

Ghost,

BS?  Come on man get real ... the reason is simple, an engine is expensive.  Thieves steal engines.  Putting the vehicle's ID - OR SOME FORM OF ID - on the block ties it back to the vehicle.  IF the engine were already stamped with a VIN, then the owner should simply document THAT number with the insurance and law enforcement agency.

And do you REALLY think that NOT putting a VIN number on the block is going to prevent a crook from passing off a fake?  Buyer beware - hire a professional appraiser like Galen Govier to inspect a car before buying it, UNLESS you are OK with it not being what you think.  I hired Galen as soon as I got XP HEMI to make sure it was legitimate.  There are many capable and reputable specialists in the Mopar restoration hobby that can inspect a car for authenticity.  Then there are the gurus like Julius, Baldasen (sic) and others that can pic a car apart to the fine details.

[KEISLER]

Did the factory leave it blank to be restamped or did they leave it blank because they had no real way of knowing what car it was going into and they didn't want to be party to an illegal activity?  Even if they did leave it blank to be restamped, do you still think it's right to restamp in order to make it a "numbers matching" engine?  You know very well that has nothing to do with reducing grand theft and everything to do with artificially inflating the value of a vehicle.  Hey wait a minute, that's kind of like theft isn't it?  Oh the irony.

Ghoste - your posts are getting downright ridiculous.  I did not say anything about making an engine "numbers matching" so don't put words in my mouth.  If you want to engage in a credible topic, you need to conduct yourself with credibility.  Same for your friend.  G'night.

[Ghoste]

First off, you should know that verifying numbers on collector cars is part of my job.  I get upset about it because in the course of a year I see so many outright fake cars or just phony provenance that I am sick to death of it.  I don't need Galen but its interesting to me that whenever i find myself in one of these debates, inevitably the person who advocates trying to legitimize something like this will play the buyer beware card and the need to hire a "Galen".  I realize the trade in stolen collector car engines is an enormous problem but again of interest, you didn't find my suggestion of making the restamped numbers unquestionably not factory.  If your only reason for restamping a block is to protect yourself from engine theft, why not?  
Lastly, I at no time ever suggested in any way that not stamping a block was a way to prevent passing a fake.  My assertion all along has been that restamping a block IS a fake.

[Ghoste]

Did the factory leave it blank to be restamped or did they leave it blank because they had no real way of knowing what car it was going into and they didn't want to be party to an illegal activity?  Even if they did leave it blank to be restamped, do you still think it's right to restamp in order to make it a "numbers matching" engine?  You know very well that has nothing to do with reducing grand theft and everything to do with artificially inflating the value of a vehicle.  Hey wait a minute, that's kind of like theft isn't it?  Oh the irony.

Ghoste - your posts are getting downright ridiculous.  I did not say anything about making an engine "numbers matching" so don't put words in my mouth.  If you want to engage in a credible topic, you need to conduct yourself with credibility.  Same for your friend.  G'night.

Then what are you saying?  You are arguing that it is okay to restamp a block and I am questioning your motives.  I told you a few posts up that I didn't buy your position that you endorsed strictly as a theft prevention method and you haven't changed my mind.  If you don't endorse it as a way to create a numbers matching engine then I applaud you.  
You stated that the factory left it blank because they intended it to be restamped with the cars VIN.  I've never seen a document indicating that was the reason it was blank so I asked the question.  I asked because I don't know.  The sentence following my question was not an accusation but another question because even if you truly are only an advocate of restamping blocks to prevent engine thefts, you are not so naive as to be unaware of the huge number of people restampng blocks today to create numbers matching engines.  You say so yourself.  As for my posts being downright ridiculous, well it's funny but I kind of thought the same thing about yours.  And my credibilty, well I'm not the one who is promoting the idea of restamping numbers am I?

[Alaskan_TA]

It would be cool if someone in the NICB or FBI would chime in here.

[ccr-host]

As for the appropriate place to hold a lengthy discussion, or sub thread on VIN numbers et al, I don't see it being this thread.  I am not saying it doesn't have a place, and I AM interested in the subject, as I've owned many '68-70 Charger R/T cars, among other Mopar muscle cars.  I believe it IS a worthy subject of much consideration ... just NOT here.

Why not?

The car evidently / allegedly had it's original body numbers swapped on national TV. The car, the show & the numbers in question have been discussed in this thread, so why talk about it anywhere else?

Are you scared of what might happen? Seizure? Confiscation of the numbers? Cancelation of the title? Cancelation of insurance? Loss of sponsorship? Something else maybe?

I do not feel it can be swept under the rug myself. If there is a legal precedent, then we need to know.

Wow, the nights must be getting long in Alaska if this is a subject of such serious debate. This seems like nothing more than picking fly dung out of the pepper!
I think what needs to be considered in this situation is the difference between "transferring" and "swapping". There is no second vehicle involved here. As it pertains to law, every law I have seen (including those forwarded by Alaskan TA) states a phrase to the effect of "to deceive" or "intentionally mislead".  I stated earlier on this blog, that if there was ANY attempt to deceive or mislead, then showing it on national television would be pretty dumb!

There was NO transfer of a VIN. There was NO re-stamping. The numbers were transferred with a portion of the rain gutter and radiator support. I can't think of anything more to tell you or Ghoste. Can we put this to bed now?