Chop Cut Rebuild is doing a 69 charger this season.......

[MoparManJim]

Jim,
Seriously man, quit while you're behind. You are starting to sound like a complete tool. Your biggest gripe is that you don't have TV and you want it for free online. If you had a TV, I doubt you would be crying the way you are.


CCR (Dan Woods), in no way does Jim represent the majority of how this site views your show. I know it takes a ton to get a show on TV. Keep up the good work.

You know something, I don't care if I had tv or not. I also don't care if I'm ahead or behind. But what he said offended me. That's all I'm going to say. I don't speak for any of you I only speak for myself. I wasn't the one that said about using things and and how things would look, it was him and his own words. I just replied back to him was all and now your telling me what my gripe is when you don't even know what offended me.. I was fine before about his show not being available online and even gave him suggestions for down the line. I said I would catch another show that was online for the time being. Not being available to see the stuff online is no biggy to me but when he came back with what he said that was the part that offended me. Because even he had to start out some where.   

I also just found out today that my one cousin got direct tv last week and watches the channel and ask me today if I would like to catch the channel with him this weekend I told nope reason is after what was just said last night to me, I'm not watching the program. If it wasn't for that I might have watch the show because I was really starting to enjoy the promos that Dan had on his site that I was seeing. But with all due respect I wish Dan the best with his show.   
Also for the record so you all know, I never said anything bad about Dan's show either.. all I said "it was to bad it wasn't online" was all. There is no badness in that at all from my point of view. 

[Ghoste]

The line between "all original" and "rebuilt" is often blurry.(snip) The portions we saved are what is legally required to continue the registration. The "legal" line in the sand was our primary concern. A complete" re-body" would require a new VIN and registering it as a specialty car, which also means meeting 2010 emissions standards.

I don't find it quite so blurry as you seem to.  You seem to think that as long as you keep the portions that still legally represent the original car then it's all good and I am firmly of the opinion that when you swap the numbers from one car to another car, then you have done a rebody.  What you are defining as a rebody is what I would term as creating a new vehicle albeit in the example we are debating the new vehicle is purposely created to look like an older one.
To be fair, I'm not accusing you of doing a rebody at this point because I am unaware of which parts of the original car you are retaining.  If you are in fact cutting out the metal with numbers and just welding it into something new, then it most definitely IS a rebody.
Given the significance of this car, that may not necessarily be an automotive tragedy but let's not candy coat it and pretend it isn't a rebody if it is by playing games with semantics.

[ccr-host]

Hey Jim, no offence intended. I was only trying to explain why we don't put our shows on the net because they would not be worth as much to a broadcaster if we were giving them away prior to broadcast. Nothing more. And there is nothing wrong with not having cable or a dish. NOTHING! Cheers,

[thedodgeboys]

I think the perspective that must be kept about how this car is restored is, why save everything that can be saved? What does having the original door do? Does it increase the value? Consider how using a patch panel instead of replacing an entire piece effects the cost of the restoration. At some point, the wallet must rule over the head and heart. The case here is we are watching a hotdog being made... Sometimes its best to not know what's in them. But, I believe the audience wants to see what's behind the process - the good and the bad. I think that is far better content than watching mechanics yell at each other or telling us who they don't like in the shop... It's about the car! Not the personalities putting it together.  

I agree with you Dan save what you can as effectively as you can

I think it will be a cool car that will be enjoyable to drive as well as look at; can I drive it some time?  

So is the car on it's way to SEMA yet?  
What are the plans for it next, car shows for a year and then off to auction???

I would like to see it some time in person how about taking it on the hotrod power tour next year?
Drive em like they were meant to be driven..

[ccr-host]

The line between "all original" and "rebuilt" is often blurry.(snip) The portions we saved are what is legally required to continue the registration. The "legal" line in the sand was our primary concern. A complete" re-body" would require a new VIN and registering it as a specialty car, which also means meeting 2010 emissions standards.

I don't find it quite so blurry as you seem to.  You seem to think that as long as you keep the portions that still legally represent the original car then it's all good and I am firmly of the opinion that when you swap the numbers from one car to another car, then you have done a rebody.  What you are defining as a rebody is what I would term as creating a new vehicle albeit in the example we are debating the new vehicle is purposely created to look like an older one.
To be fair, I'm not accusing you of doing a rebody at this point because I am unaware of which parts of the original car you are retaining.  If you are in fact cutting out the metal with numbers and just welding it into something new, then it most definitely IS a rebody.
Given the significance of this car, that may not necessarily be an automotive tragedy but let's not candy coat it and pretend it isn't a rebody if it is by playing games with semantics.

Ghoste, I understand the perspective. But, who determines where the line is? What matters "legally" is which numbers you swap. The numbers we switched are not the complete VIN and not required for registration. They are ID numbers. IF you create a complete new car, like what happens with the Dynacorn bodies, it can be a nightmare to register them. Some DMV's will not accept that a 69 Camaro is a 69 Camaro because it was never registered in 1969. Even if you build the Camaro to exact 1969 specs. While a couple of states will register it by it's looks others are far more particular. California is one of those hard to register states. What you end up fighting against isn't a philosophical issue, it's a bureaucratic issue if you don't keep specific parts of the car and build from there. It's kind of like a home renovation. Done in a certain manner, you don't need a permit because it can be deemed "remodelling". Done the other way you open yourself up to making presentations to the local city council for easements, permits, etc...

[Ghoste]

I don't think you do understand my perspective and I still think you are playing with semantics.  Although I would agree with you that there is a difficulty in agreeing at what point so much of an original car is gone that it can no longer be considered that same original car I draw a very different conclusion on what defines rebodying.  It appears to me that you seem to feel it doens't exist until you do a complete body change like the Dynacorn replacement bodies.  To me, and just about everyone I know in the hobby, a rebody occurs anytime the identifying numbers are swapped onto a different car.
By the way, if you switched numbers on the car that weren't assigned or attached at the factory in some way I'm curious as to what they were?

[nvrbdn]

the #'s that were moved or cut out were the #'s in the drip rail around the trunk area.the whole area was rusted out so they cut them saying they would reinstall them as they were identifing #'s for the car. the fender tag was gone due to previous accident. the vin tag is in place in the dash structure.

[DC_1]

Dan, are you getting your balls busted over at the corvette forum for cutting up the C6 as well? 

[Chris G.]

Ghoste, I completely agree about what you are saying. I am also a big opponent of rebodies and deceit. I think the wrong person is being questioned though. CCR did the work, but I am guessing the ultimate decisions regarding the car would fall under the owner (Keisler). To purposely cut off the VIN areas to save smells shady to me. I just don't get it. Well I get it, but you know what I mean.

[Ghoste]

Then let's be clear that the number cut out from the trunk rail IS an identifying number.  Even though it may not be the one that everyone looks at first when determining the VIn for purposes of vehicle registration it most absolutely is there from the factory as an identifier.  It is placed there by federal legislation as part of an effort to eliminate car theft and (ironically?) "chop" shops .   It is one of the numbers used to determine a "numbers matching" car as many well know.

Now, that being said, I'm still not sure if I take the position that this particular car should be considered a rebody at this point.  I'm personally still on the fence as to what I think the project is.  I don't think I hold it in as much contempt as I first did but I still don't see it as a restoration.  It's more like a rolling advertisement for a couple of companies being pulled off as entertainment.  But not necessarily a rebody either.

[Ghoste]

I agree Chris and I'm not really questioning him about decisions as much as challenging him on what constitutes a rebody.  My question about which number was cut out was out a desire to know which number could be cut out and not be construed as an id number.  
As much as I also oppose rebodies, I'm not even sure yet where I stand on this car if it was rebodied depending on the final use.  An automotive moral dilemma .

[tan top]

has the car got the original core support with the vin ?? , is there a picture of the top of the dash anywhere ?

[lexxman]

Dan, are you getting your balls busted over at the corvette forum for cutting up the C6 as well?  

Dan,I would guess you get this alot.I know you like to keep original panels when you can,but if there shot,there shot.And you still have the main structure, and if you didn't t have AMD most cars restored these day wouldn't  be. And moving those numbers shouldn't be a big dealer.If you restoring it,that's part of it I would think. I was lucky my charger was in pretty good shape and now I have a few small patch's to weld and Ill be done the with the welder.

[nvrbdn]

my take on this after being on here as long as i have is that im really going to enjoy this show.is it a rare car anymore? not as much in my mind since there was nothing left. but it is another saved charger that will cruise with the best of them (hopefully and not in a bubble to be stared at) and we will get to watch this car be constructed. its gona be a nice looking machine and they have atleast chosen to let me see it happen.

[Ghoste]

Cars were restored for years before AMD came along, they just made it easier and cheaper (and let the record show my gratitude for it).  A better question might be, if AMD weren't paying for it, would this particular car be getting the job done the way it is, or at all?
BTW, how many C6's did they make?

[UFO]

is there a picture of the top of the dash anywhere ?

It was shown in episode two.

BTW, how many C6's did they make?

So far two,they must be getting worried about the drag race and trying to slide a ringer into the mix.

[Ghoste]

Are they being redone side by side?  (I know I know, watch the show and then I won't have to ask)

[tan top]

is there a picture of the top of the dash anywhere ?

It was shown in episode two.

oh right !!     was it a 3 speaker dash ??

[DC_1]

Are they being redone side by side?  (I know I know, watch the show and then I won't have to ask)

No, vette being done in FL by corvette specialty, XP- being done by AMD in GA I believe.  

[lexxman]

Cars were restored for years before AMD came along, they just made it easier and cheaper (and let the record show my gratitude for it).  A better question might be, if AMD weren't paying for it, would this particular car be getting the job done the way it is, or at all?
BTW, how many C6's did they make?

This is true and I agree with you.I mean that there are allot of what would have been parts car on the road today,because AMD offers cheaper and easier.

[Ghoste]

I agree with you on the parts car thing but I would hope that no one would have parted this one out. 

[UFO]

is there a picture of the top of the dash anywhere ?

It was shown in episode two.

oh right !!    was it a 3 speaker dash ??

The clip does not show enough to see if it's a three speaker.It's a real close shot of just the vin tag.

[ccr-host]

is there a picture of the top of the dash anywhere ?

It was shown in episode two.

oh right !!    was it a 3 speaker dash ??

The clip does not show enough to see if it's a three speaker.It's a real close shot of just the vin tag.

The dash had a single speaker.

[ccr-host]

I don't think you do understand my perspective and I still think you are playing with semantics.  Although I would agree with you that there is a difficulty in agreeing at what point so much of an original car is gone that it can no longer be considered that same original car I draw a very different conclusion on what defines rebodying.  It appears to me that you seem to feel it doens't exist until you do a complete body change like the Dynacorn replacement bodies.  To me, and just about everyone I know in the hobby, a rebody occurs anytime the identifying numbers are swapped onto a different car.
By the way, if you switched numbers on the car that weren't assigned or attached at the factory in some way I'm curious as to what they were?

Guys, let me say that I am finding this discussion very interesting. I was on set working on the Vette all day today and was running back and forth to my laptop between takes! It's been very distracting...  in a good way!

Ghoste; yes, I am playing with semantics because that is what the law does. The law is very clear about removing the VIN plate from a car. Being caught with VIN tag rivets in California is a ten thousand dollar fine! But, what you are calling "re-bodying", I consider (along with a number of people in the industry) to be "re-skinning". That is not semantics – it's perspective. Just as "remodeling" your home is different than "renovating" it. What you and your friends in the hobby may consider to be "re-bodying" is not what the aftermarket industry and the law considers it to be.

I had a very interesting conversation with Jim Barber, the owner of CARS Inc. at the ARMO banquet, during SEMA a couple of years ago. Jim is producing the Yenko Continuation series Camaro's out of his shop in NC using Dynacorn shells. He's a walking encyclopedia on this subject. He enlightened me about the federal laws regarding "re-bodying". They were created for the trucking industry as a means to replace cabs on roll over transport trucks, a common practice in the transport industry. In those situations, a dash VIN can be transferred to a new cab with approval and inspection by a state police officer. However, certain states do not permit their officers to perform the approval on cars, despite the law not being specific to trucks. It's a situation where federal law should supersede state law but, it doesn't – out of semantics! Some states are very aggressive with their clunker laws, while others are more passive. These are tricky waters to navigate.

Dynacorn shells are a re-bodying product because they provide the entire body. Legally, they are considered a replacement part and should only be used if the purchaser has a damaged vehicle and will be transferring the remaining parts to the new shell. If you build an entire car using the Dynacorn bodies (as we did last year), then you are required (by California) to meet 2010 emission standards and crash testing, OR register the vehicle as a "specialty" vehicle, meaning it is not registered as a Chevrolet Camaro. I believe the state of California allows 50 specialty registrations each year. Getting one is like lining up for a rock concert outside the DMV on December 31st. Those 50 registrations are gone in 15 minutes!

As for the "sprit" of the activity, I agree with you in that the definition is by no means firm. When you replace a fender or a door does a reproduction part void the originality of the car? Would a NOS part not do the same? If there is an acceptable percentage, then who determines it? If a part wasn't installed at the factory, then it's not an all original car, correct? So, one collision voids your perspective. The facts are we are replacing the majority of panels with Chrysler approved and licensed parts that are not manufactured by Chrysler but approved by Chrysler. These are not knock offs! The Chrysler licensed radiator support we used did not have any number stamped on it as was done by the factory. So, we did not replace a number – we assigned the proper number to the part... just like the factory did. That original radiator support will be made into a bicycle next month and all traces of its original use will be gone. The law does not have any regulations about ID numbers on parts – only VIN's.

I'm sorry to say that the poster who claimed these ID numbers are used to determine a "numbers matching car" is wrong. They do not. A numbers matching car means the car has the original engine as confirmed by a build sheet or fender tag... none of which this car has. Sheet metal origins are irrelevant to "numbers matching".

As for our activities being deceitful; all I can say is, if we were trying to deceive anyone we surely wouldn't have shown it on national television.

[ccr-host]

Cars were restored for years before AMD came along, they just made it easier and cheaper (and let the record show my gratitude for it).  A better question might be, if AMD weren't paying for it, would this particular car be getting the job done the way it is, or at all?
BTW, how many C6's did they make?

I think the answer to all those questions lies in the fact that this car sat for almost 20 years, had parts stripped from it and no one (until Shafi came along) was interested in it. I think we should tip our hats to Shafi rather than condem his methodology in restoring it.