Chop Cut Rebuild is doing a 69 charger this season.......

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

According to Galen, the VIN puts it as a July 1968 build, which does seem a little late for the brochure. They would likely have needed a photo car in June. However, in my short time working on ACDelco marketing, I saw some pretty quick turn around's on photo shoots. There also were holes in the door for the Hemi badge and there was no work done to the rear quarter marker lights. But, as I said, there were a number of Hemi features on the car and no R/T markings. That combination was not sold to the public. It also had the manual transmission side plate and torque boxes. The production numbers for four speed Hemi's in 1969 was only 227. Two hundred in the US and 27 in Canada, so either way this is still a pretty rare car... and a TV star now too. The front left fender had been replaced at some point, so the fender tag is gone. If there was a build sheet for it, it's Tennessee compost now!

The whole thing sure is an exciting mystery!   

Dan are you sure on that SPD?   I have it pegged with an SPD of 10/24/68 within my registry database....

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

TufCat, that is some real interesting & insightful info there...kudos to your dad! 

[ccr-host]

According to Galen, the VIN puts it as a July 1968 build, which does seem a little late for the brochure. They would likely have needed a photo car in June. However, in my short time working on ACDelco marketing, I saw some pretty quick turn around's on photo shoots. There also were holes in the door for the Hemi badge and there was no work done to the rear quarter marker lights. But, as I said, there were a number of Hemi features on the car and no R/T markings. That combination was not sold to the public. It also had the manual transmission side plate and torque boxes. The production numbers for four speed Hemi's in 1969 was only 227. Two hundred in the US and 27 in Canada, so either way this is still a pretty rare car... and a TV star now too. The front left fender had been replaced at some point, so the fender tag is gone. If there was a build sheet for it, it's Tennessee compost now!

The whole thing sure is an exciting mystery!   

Dan are you sure on that SPD?   I have it pegged with an SPD of 10/24/68 within my registry database....

I'll have to pull the complete VIN and post it for you. But, yes I believe Galen pegged it as a summer build. What doesn't make sense to me is, why they would install the torque boxes if its a 440 car? And why put the trans plate in if it's an automatic? The holes for the R/T badge between the tail lights were crowned as though they were drilled by hand and put in after manufacture but, the door holes were punched.

On the Moparts board, someone suggested that the car may not have been issued a VIN until later when the descision was made to sell the car. I wonder if that is possible too? 

[The70RT]

Dan - the fender tag would be on the unibody inner fender structure of the car not the fender itself. 

[Khyron]

But, yes I believe Galen pegged it as a summer build. What doesn't make sense to me is, why they would install the torque boxes if its a 440 car?

not to stir up stuff, but I have seen galen wrong on a few things... namely a 71 hemi charger I had a hand in restoring once... but thats another story

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

But, yes I believe Galen pegged it as a summer build. What doesn't make sense to me is, why they would install the torque boxes if its a 440 car?

not to stir up stuff, but I have seen galen wrong on a few things... namely a 71 hemi charger I had a hand in restoring once... but thats another story

I have the VIN to the car and it puts it at 10/24/68

[ccr-host]

But, yes I believe Galen pegged it as a summer build. What doesn't make sense to me is, why they would install the torque boxes if its a 440 car?

not to stir up stuff, but I have seen galen wrong on a few things... namely a 71 hemi charger I had a hand in restoring once... but thats another story

I have the VIN to the car and it puts it at 10/24/68

October would be very late for photo's. But, it would be the right time for the car show circuit.

So, I assume the engine and trans was swapped later.

[Ghoste]

My guess would be that the engine swap occured after it went into private ownership.  What are the markings on the block (stamped and cast numbers)?

[tan top]

My guess would be that the engine swap occured after it went into private ownership.  What are the markings on the block (stamped and cast numbers)?

that would be my  guess also 

[ccr-host]

My guess would be that the engine swap occured after it went into private ownership.  What are the markings on the block (stamped and cast numbers)?

I'll have to ask Craig Hopkins that question. He has the block and transmission at the AMD installation center, in Georgia.

I spoke with David Hakim at SEMA and he told me to expect nothing to be predictable when it comes to promotional cars. He's heard of cars badged two different ways so the car could pull double duty on a photo shoot. 

[Ghoste]

Yep, a very common practice with styling bucks too.  I have pics somewhere of a 67 Coronet that I saw once that was half 440 and half 500 trim levels.

[Blakcharger440]

Get a beer, grab a seat, and put your feet up because what going to tell you is the actual true story about the 'brochure car" from a guy who was there -  42 years ago.

My Dad retired after 35 years with Chrysler Engineering.  He witnessed the development of many (now historical) pre-production cars as they moved through Chrysler engineering at Highland Park. What I'm about to tell you is "the way it was back then".  I realize some background information is needed for credibility sake, so here it goes.

He started Chrysler engineering in 1965. Without a lot of hoopla I can tell you that his job took him to every corner of engineering. His office was 200 feet from the engineering paint shop which was in close proximity to the metal and trim shops. He had the run of engineering which included access to the "security room" where early prototypes were built....(in fact, I was there once as a kid- sshhh, don't tell anybody! ).

Although he didn't have access to the design studio he was invited on an "as needed" basis in the late '60's and early 70's. His last job was working for the concept and specialty vehicle group/design office when he retired from Chrysler in 2001. He now works at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum one day a week.

He lusted over this car for many months, and saw it often before the 1969 models were ever revealed to the public. Since he loved the car so much, he watched its progress during its many phases of 1968.

It was a 1968 Charger that was turned into a 1969 model by the engineering metal shop, trim shop, and paint shop in early 1968. The round side maker lights were changed to the rectangular ones, new grille, and the tail panel was replaced for the new taillights.  It was then repainted several times in building 132 at Highland Park with a peel coat paint job and was shown (and photographed) in many different trim styles .....from base car, to SE, to R/T.

The vinyl top color was also changed from white, to black, then tan, depending on the exterior color.  The vinyl color was easily changed by using a peal coat paint job also.  He's almost sure this was the car photographed as a red R/T with a black tape stripe.  

The engineering office referred to these cars as "program cars". Very few program cars were ever sold to the public for safety and liability reasons, especially ones that have been modified as much as this car was...i.e. a 1968 model dressed as a 1969.  He remembers the powertrain to be a 440/automatic. He also clearly remembers the woodgrain dash -  obviously done because it was shown as an SE.

Back in the late '60's, brochures were done 3 to 4 months in advance of any pre-production cars leaving the assembly line. Printing and photographic technology was nowhere near today's digital standard so engineering typically modified one car into several different color and trim variations for the photographic lab.  Sometimes, when late changes occurred the "next best thing" was to airbrush the photo. Many "retouched" photos were used for print media.  

Personally, my Dad remembers the first time he saw the "new for 1969" Charger. Right away, he decided he wanted to buy a 1969 Charger...and his favorite color was medium bronze just like the brochure car.  He settled for a T7 dark bronze Charger SE instead.

Nobody, especially my Dad, knows for sure if the actual "brochure car" was ever sold by Chrysler, or still exists today.
In regard to the Chop Cut Rebuild Charger...it's very unlikely to be the same car since the brochure car was a 1968 model with a 440.

I will leave it up to you to decide.  

My Dad is registered as: oldhemiman if you want to ask him a question on anything.

Awesome it sounds like the mystery is more than likely solved then as not being the brochure car

[ccr-host]

I agree, the odds of our XP being the brochure car are declining. However, it brings up three other questions:
1) If this is not the brochure car, then how many XP's were produced?
2) Why would they produce more than one car for promotional purposes that people couldn't order?
3) We haven't eleminated the possibility the suggestion from another party here that VIN was issued later.

I love a good mystery! Any thoughts?

[Ghoste]

To my knowledge Chrysler was not in the habit of building cars and then assigning VIN's later.
We so far haven't much discussed the idea that it could a typo (probably few of us want it to be).  But then it should have had the RT in the grille (easily changed) and evidence of an RT badge on the tail panel (not so easily changed).
Going back to XP Hemi's, as far as a number made I would go with virtually none.  This one and possibly the brochure car and maybe one more?
I can't see them running a bunch for promo's knowing that no one could order one.

[The70RT]

How could they issue a vin later if the body has the sequential stampings? I guess they could add a dash & fender tag later???

[tan top]

I agree, the odds of our XP being the brochure car are declining. However, it brings up three other questions:
1) If this is not the brochure car, then how many XP's were produced?
2) Why would they produce more than one car for promotional purposes that people couldn't order?
3) We haven't eleminated the possibility the suggestion from another party here that VIN was issued later.

I love a good mystery! Any thoughts?

not sure where i'm going with this , or if it makes sense ! , ( have mentioned something like this before ) as we know you can pretty much option out an XP car like a R/T  obviously not motor , but in this case you can !!  , suppose these XP J  coded  charger were ordered  by drag racers , & or one way of making a hemi car cheaper!! for racers , to build / order a few XP  cars  , also weight brackets in stock classes  etc at the time,  in drag racing ! a stock XP hemi car !!  would it weigh less then a stock  Hemi XS charger R/T !!  , similar when hemi Ebody racers ordered their cudas / challengers  , radio delete , manual drums , heater delete , getting carried away now but look at the A990 package cars ,
perhaps it was supposed to be a similar idea hemi motor in a basic charger package   i think i know what i'm trying to say but ,   , or  i have had one too many beers over christmas  , going to wait for my bus

............

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

not sure where i'm going with this , or if it makes sense ! , ( have mentioned something like this before ) as we know you can pretty much option out an XP car like a R/T  obviously not motor , but in this case you can !!  , suppose these XP J  coded  charger were ordered  by drag racers , & or one way of making a hemi car cheaper!! for racers , to build / order a few XP  cars  , also weight brackets in stock classes  etc at the time,  in drag racing ! a stock XP hemi car !!  would it weigh less then a stock  Hemi XS charger R/T !!  , similar when hemi Ebody racers ordered their cudas / challengers  , radio delete , manual drums , heater delete , getting carried away now but look at the A990 package cars ,
perhaps it was supposed to be a similar idea hemi motor in a basic charger package   i think i know what i'm trying to say but ,   , or  i have had one too many beers over christmas  , going to wait for my bus

............

How do you figure it would weigh less?   According to Shafi, this car had torque boxes & the HD suspension components....

Unless you are figuring the weight of the R/T badges are more than the standard Charger arrows?  



I still stand by my page 2,  post #41 theory 

[Ghoste]

I don't want to reread the whole thing but I thought it DIDN'T have the RT tail panel?

[Magnumcharger]

Being a Charger enthusiast, I am aware of other Chargers that exist, but were never supposed to "be"....

The first would be the 1968 Hemi Charger 500 that we all are infinitely aware of. Obviously, this was a pre-production "prototype" for the upcoming 1969 Grand National Stock Car crowd.
It's just as unusual as any XP Charger could be, and it too was used for promotional purposes and advertising. In fact, not only is it a 1968 model instead of 1969, it's an XS instead of the later 500's XX.
(Yes, I know some '69's were XS too.)

And then, there is the XP 1970 Hemi Charger. It's been mentioned on this blog several times over the years, and it too survives.

Also, was there not a particular 1970 Hemi Road Runner found a couple of years ago that was verified as being the actual car used in the Rapid Transit Ads?

Why are we questioning the possibility of this car being produced for what may well be exactly what we surmised all along?
It could very well be what we think it is.

[TUFCAT]

Being a Charger enthusiast, I am aware of other Chargers that exist, but were never supposed to "be"....

The first would be the 1968 Hemi Charger 500 that we all are infinitely aware of. Obviously, this was a pre-production "prototype" for the upcoming 1969 Grand National Stock Car crowd.
It's just as unusual as any XP Charger could be, and it too was used for promotional purposes and advertising. In fact, not only is it a 1968 model instead of 1969, it's an XS instead of the later 500's XX.
(Yes, I know some '69's were XS too.)

And then, there is the XP 1970 Hemi Charger. It's been mentioned on this blog several times over the years, and it too survives.

Also, was there not a particular 1970 Hemi Road Runner found a couple of years ago that was verified as being the actual car used in the Rapid Transit Ads?

Why are we questioning the possibility of this car being produced for what may well be exactly what we surmised all along?
It could very well be what we think it is.

You are correct....never say "never" when it comes to Chrysler vehicle history.

Nobody can say 100% without a doubt that a production 1969 XP (factory Hemi equipped) Charger was ever built....

We DO know for sure that Chrysler built and sold a 1969 Charger with this VIN number because it absolutely exists today.  

Yes, you are also correct that other mystery cars have been found and "solved" over the years...but it doesn't help solve this case. This car could actually be the only real XP29J - and that would be totally cool!    It already has the VIN....and would be rock solid if the original numbers matching Hemi was still sitting between the frame rails.   Unfortunately, this hasn't been proven.

Claiming authenticity based on the fact that other factory oddity's have been found to exist just isn't enough anymore.  

BTW, you mentioned the 1968 Hemi Charger 500 pre-production "prototype" shown in the picture. Does it still exist today?

Engineering cars should not have been sold to the general public unless they could returned to "new model" condition. Obviously a 1968 Charger dressed as a 1969 Charger 500 could not have been easily returned to "new model" condition.  These cars were supposed to be shipped to the proving grounds and then crushed/scraped. At least those were the rules....nobody knows for sure if the rules were always followed?    

[472 R/T SE]

To this day I remember my Father preaching how I needed to protect my driver's license to keep insurance rates down.  Back then before I even bought a car I needed to check insurance rates first.

I also remember cars that were considered "dirty" cause a VIN had been manipulated trying to influence insurance rates so their resale value was nonexistent.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this car was built as an insurance beater.  Sure it had the J code but how diligent was the insurance cos.?  Was the fact it was an XP instead of an XS enough of a savings for a person to order it that way?

[ccr-host]

To this day I remember my Father preaching how I needed to protect my driver's license to keep insurance rates down.  Back then before I even bought a car I needed to check insurance rates first.

I also remember cars that were considered "dirty" cause a VIN had been manipulated trying to influence insurance rates so their resale value was nonexistent.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this car was built as an insurance beater.  Sure it had the J code but how diligent was the insurance cos.?  Was the fact it was an XP instead of an XS enough of a savings for a person to order it that way?

I don't see how a 427 Hemi would save insurance money over a 440. Block size? I know my unsurance was simply based on V8, nothing more.

As for the earlier post suggesting the non-R/T would be a weight savings, well then why would they order the 8 track instead of the "lighter" AM/FM radio? 

[472 R/T SE]

To this day I remember my Father preaching how I needed to protect my driver's license to keep insurance rates down.  Back then before I even bought a car I needed to check insurance rates first.

I also remember cars that were considered "dirty" cause a VIN had been manipulated trying to influence insurance rates so their resale value was nonexistent.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this car was built as an insurance beater.  Sure it had the J code but how diligent was the insurance cos.?  Was the fact it was an XP instead of an XS enough of a savings for a person to order it that way?

I don't see how a 427 Hemi would save insurance money over a 440. Block size? I know my unsurance was simply based on V8, nothing more.

As for the earlier post suggesting the non-R/T would be a weight savings, well then why would they order the 8 track instead of the "lighter" AM/FM radio?  

You know as well as I do it's all about what the car's called.  A base model Charger would save vs. a high performance R/T model.  Surely you remember what the insurance industry did to muscle cars back then?      The fact your insurance bases their rates on whether or not the car had a V8 just proves my point all the more.



I'm not talking about cubic inches so much as what the car's called.

[69bronzeT5]

Also, was there not a particular 1970 Hemi Road Runner found a couple of years ago that was verified as being the actual car used in the Rapid Transit Ads?

Yes. A member here Jeremy (C_stripes) was the one who found this car and bought it. It's since changed hands and is being restored by a friend of his.

[tan top]

not sure where i'm going with this , or if it makes sense ! , ( have mentioned something like this before ) as we know you can pretty much option out an XP car like a R/T  obviously not motor , but in this case you can !!  , suppose these XP J  coded  charger were ordered  by drag racers , & or one way of making a hemi car cheaper!! for racers , to build / order a few XP  cars  , also weight brackets in stock classes  etc at the time,  in drag racing ! a stock XP hemi car !!  would it weigh less then a stock  Hemi XS charger R/T !!  , similar when hemi Ebody racers ordered their cudas / challengers  , radio delete , manual drums , heater delete , getting carried away now but look at the A990 package cars ,
perhaps it was supposed to be a similar idea hemi motor in a basic charger package   i think i know what i'm trying to say but ,   , or  i have had one too many beers over christmas  , going to wait for my bus

............

How do you figure it would weigh less?   According to Shafi, this car had torque boxes & the HD suspension components....

Unless you are figuring the weight of the R/T badges are more than the standard Charger arrows?  



I still stand by my page 2,  post #41 theory  

hmmm   makes more sence Chris