Chop Cut Rebuild is doing a 69 charger this season.......

[Ghoste]

Dan, my current argument is about restamping blocks not VIN swapping.  But if you are about to tell me its okay too then I will happily debate it with you too.  Not ready for bed I guess.

[Alaskan_TA]

As for the appropriate place to hold a lengthy discussion, or sub thread on VIN numbers et al, I don't see it being this thread.  I am not saying it doesn't have a place, and I AM interested in the subject, as I've owned many '68-70 Charger R/T cars, among other Mopar muscle cars.  I believe it IS a worthy subject of much consideration ... just NOT here.

Why not?

The car evidently / allegedly had it's original body numbers swapped on national TV. The car, the show & the numbers in question have been discussed in this thread, so why talk about it anywhere else?

Are you scared of what might happen? Seizure? Confiscation of the numbers? Cancelation of the title? Cancelation of insurance? Loss of sponsorship? Something else maybe?

I do not feel it can be swept under the rug myself. If there is a legal precedent, then we need to know.

Wow, the nights must be getting long in Alaska if this is a subject of such serious debate. This seems like nothing more than picking fly dung out of the pepper!
I think what needs to be considered in this situation is the difference between "transferring" and "swapping". There is no second vehicle involved here. As it pertains to law, every law I have seen (including those forwarded by Alaskan TA) states a phrase to the effect of "to deceive" or "intentionally mislead".  I stated earlier on this blog, that if there was ANY attempt to deceive or mislead, then showing it on national television would be pretty dumb!

There was NO transfer of a VIN. There was NO re-stamping. The numbers were transferred with a portion of the rain gutter and radiator support. I can't think of anything more to tell you or Ghoste. Can we put this to bed now?

I see a contradiction;

There was NO transfer of a VIN.

The numbers were transferred

So, were they or were they not transferred?

If they were, is there a state law in the state it took place that allows it?

If so, can you show it to us or provide documentation?

To me, cutting VINs out of sheet metal & transferring them to new sheet metal is VIN tampering. If you, or the owner, or anyone else can come up with a law that says otherwise, I would love to see it. Pretty please?  

[ccr-host]

As for the appropriate place to hold a lengthy discussion, or sub thread on VIN numbers et al, I don't see it being this thread.  I am not saying it doesn't have a place, and I AM interested in the subject, as I've owned many '68-70 Charger R/T cars, among other Mopar muscle cars.  I believe it IS a worthy subject of much consideration ... just NOT here.

Why not?

The car evidently / allegedly had it's original body numbers swapped on national TV. The car, the show & the numbers in question have been discussed in this thread, so why talk about it anywhere else?

Are you scared of what might happen? Seizure? Confiscation of the numbers? Cancelation of the title? Cancelation of insurance? Loss of sponsorship? Something else maybe?

I do not feel it can be swept under the rug myself. If there is a legal precedent, then we need to know.

Wow, the nights must be getting long in Alaska if this is a subject of such serious debate. This seems like nothing more than picking fly dung out of the pepper!
I think what needs to be considered in this situation is the difference between "transferring" and "swapping". There is no second vehicle involved here. As it pertains to law, every law I have seen (including those forwarded by Alaskan TA) states a phrase to the effect of "to deceive" or "intentionally mislead".  I stated earlier on this blog, that if there was ANY attempt to deceive or mislead, then showing it on national television would be pretty dumb!

There was NO transfer of a VIN. There was NO re-stamping. The numbers were transferred with a portion of the rain gutter and radiator support. I can't think of anything more to tell you or Ghoste. Can we put this to bed now?

I see a contradiction;

There was NO transfer of a VIN.

The numbers were transferred

So, were they or were they not transferred?

If they were, is there a state law in the state it took place that allows it?

If so, can you show it to us or provide documentation?

To me, cutting VINs out of sheet metal & transferring them to new sheet metal is VIN tampering. If you, or the owner, or anyone else can come up with a law that says otherwise, I would love to see it. Pretty please?  

Alakan,

You answered your own question. You are confusing a VIN with ID numbers found on the radiator support and trunk gutter. The ID numbers on those areas are PARTIAL numbers – NOT the  VIN. They do not have to be on a car. They are for identification purposes ONLY. They are not installed with manufacturer's rivets, which are illegal for the public to possess (Ten thousand dollar fine in CA).  The numbers on the metal are ID numbers and as we were not transferring them from one car to another, but rather from an old part to a new part on the same car, there is no intent to deceive or mislead anyone. Those numbers do not make the car a matching numbers car. They do not increase the value... all they seem to do is give someone sitting up north with nothing to do, something to agonize over.  

[Tilar]

... there is no intent to deceive or mislead anyone. Those numbers do not make the car a matching numbers car. They do not increase the value... all they seem to do is give someone sitting up north with nothing to do, something to agonize over.  

Then why bother doing it?

[XS29L9B2]

so beautiful 

[doctor4766]

So Mr Keisler,
It seems this question has been overlooked so far.
How does your new car drive?

[DC_1]

Wow, i gotta stop going to bed so early! I haven't seen this much arguing and debating this late at night since before my divorce!

I see both sides to this. I think this particular case is on that edge of the the law between right and wrong and depending on where you stand you can make a strong case for either position.

From where I stand I see it as has been stated by Dan earlier, the law is there to prevent fraud, misrepresentation and or deception that the car is something that it is not to any future buyer. The extent of repair on this particular car has been heavily documented and I think any future buyer will have plenty of information on what they are getting. In this instance, moving the stampings was not done with the intent to mislead or deceive but rather as part of the "restoration" to bring the body of the car back to the way it left the factory. If these numbers were stamped on the firewall, which was not replaced, we would not be having this conversation. The fact that the damage on the car required panel repair or replacement in areas with these numbers should be taken into consideration as a necessary part of the restoration and not some "evil plan" to commit fraud. In my opinion, the factory correct stampings were transferred to the new replacement part on the car with no intent to misrepresent it as a different vehicle. If this car is considered to be legal for title then why shouldn't it be allowed to have proper body markings?

[Tilar]

Don't get me wrong, I think they did an outstanding job of putting a new car together from scratch using new iron and a few old parts. It's a beautiful car. Fact is the only thing they are putting back on the road that came from the factory are a few parts that you can buy on ebay, and the numbers. So in essense it all revolves around the numbers.

Do I think they put the numbers on it with the intent to defraud anyone? Absolutely not, but on the same note I don't feel "intent" is relevant in this.

[1969chargerrtse]

I agree with it' s a shame it was a t.v car that so many panels were replaced that could of been repaired.  Now the car is mostly new metal and Lot's of the originality is gone and cannot be replaced as the comment was made about bolt on's.

What would be neat would be a 3D computer model that showed what sections and parts were from the original car and what is now from China with the exact % number.  

Beautiful car it is, but that comment goes to Dodge. Anyone with money can make something shiny and new.  
That was ( most believe ) a one only car of what most believe is one of the most beautiful cars every made and I just feel it deserved to be restored slowly with love and with all the intentions to keep as many of the original parts from 1969 as possible.
Now when most people think of it, they will have a memory of all the parts and panels that are not from the original car and that number is really really high.  A shame.  
                                                                                             

[hemi24]

I can see this car going to a collector and not doing any street time its to sweet.

[UFO]

Maybe they should have fired up the shredder and turned it into pop cans.

Car looks fantastic.Nice job on the resto.

[Ghoste]

Maybe.  I am openly critical of rebodies but I have been asking the question on this particular car all along if it's rarity didn't warrant an exception in my thinking.  But I have been starting to revisit it.

[Charger-Bodie]

no matter how you look at it....Its parts to fix a car! Even in a "rebody" situation...parts to fix a car.

As far as the numbers being transfered....big deal. They stay with the car this way. Not in an envelope,but in the place where they belong .

I think the whole issue of "rebody" is blown way out of proportion anyway..   Its parts to fix a car and as long as you are up front about the repairs then so be it.

[hemi24]

Did Bzabodyn  catch this much hell when he did his 1969 hemi charger total rebuild ?

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Another perspective from the Corvette World:


http://ncrsnm.com/pdf/NCRS_2010_JudgingJudgesAdvisory.pdf

NCRS Judging –Judges' Advisory
DEFINITIONS OF COUNTERFEIT vs. RESTORATION
NCRS does not consider the restoration or replacement of components as counterfeit as long as the intent is to restore the car to its former or original state as it left the factory.
To make this perfectly clear read the following definitions from Webster's Dictionary and the accompanying examples.
RESTORE:   "To renew; to put back into existence or bring back to a former or original state." For instance, the following examples represent restorations and are not considered counterfeiting:
4
revised 5-27-10
• • •
Repainting an original black Corvette with black lacquer paint Installing accurately reproduced black vinyl seat covers in a car that left the factory with a standard black interior Stamping a 435-HP block to conform to the date/serial number of the original 435-HP Corvette in which it is to be installed
COUNTERFEIT:   "To make an imitation of something else with the intent to deceive or defraud For instance, the following would be examples of counterfeiting:
•   Repainting an original blue car red and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color •   Installing a red interior in a car that left the factory with a blue interior and changing the trim tag to make red
appear to be the original color interior •   Replacing the engine of an original small block Corvette with a big block and stamping numbers on it to make it
appear to be an original big block engine •   Replacing the carburetor on an engine with a fuel-injection unit and stamping the numbers and suffix code on the
block to make it appear to be an original fuel-injection car

[Troy]

Did Bzabodyn  catch this much hell when he did his 1969 hemi charger total rebuild ?

Yep, pretty much. Although he was planning to use another cars original sheet metal instead of donated parts from AMD.

Barry, all the metal work was done in Georgia.

I believe "rebody" is the wrong term since that generally applies to finding a nice original shell and swapping the numbers from the rarer (or titled in some cases) car. About 98% of this car seems to be new metal. I can't tell if there's more left from the original car or the "donor". Either way, I'd assume it still falls under the category of replacement parts. I do not technically agree with stamping or transferring stamped panels because the only reason to do it is because someone, some day will be looking for them to verify the car. This car is being done in the open in (mostly) full view of the public so any future buyer should know exactly what they are getting. Sadly, this is not the case for many, many other "questionable" cars and I believe this sets a bad example for people who may see it as validation for what they do. On the other hand, it does show that nothing is "too far gone" if you have the money and resources to see it through.

There is an article in the latest Auto Enthusiast magazine that covers the legal issues for full body shells from Dynacorn which may answer some questions.

I have some of the videos by Craig Hopkins (C. Hopkins Rod & Custom, theinstallationcenter.com, howtoasap.com) who did the metal work. In them he teaches how to do partial panel replacement but it is my understanding that he prefers to replace whole panels when available. This may explain why "good" sections of the car were tossed in favor of new metal. Plus, with the way the cars are built on the jig I would imagine that it's better to fit a single, stamped piece than to weld one across the middle and try to make it match. It's certainly less labor intensive to spot weld all new panels than to cut/weld/grind/hammer/fill patches. Some will say it's stronger as well. There will always be a technology/process gap between how a professional shop does a job and the hobbyist. However, I am amazed at some of the rusty piles that are "saved" by some people in their back yards. Not every can pull it off though.

Troy

[1969chargerrtse]

no matter how you look at it....Its parts to fix a car! Even in a "rebody" situation...parts to fix a car.

As far as the numbers being transfered....big deal. They stay with the car this way. Not in an envelope,but in the place where they belong .

I think the whole issue of "rebody" is blown way out of proportion anyway..   Its parts to fix a car and as long as you are up front about the repairs then so be it.

Yes Brian, but if Jay Leno had this car he would of taken the time to make sure as much of the original car was preserved.  As he does with his other classics's.  This was/is a real rare and special car and the only reason
such a large portion was replaced was because of time and money due to the show.  This car deserved better.
What about the originaL doors with the Hemi badge holes?  That would of been well worth the work to save them.
This subject along with the Vin will never have a unanimous agreement.

[Ghoste]

Maybe we are trying to slay the wrong dragon here.  Back when the cars were worthless, we just didn't care about this kind of stuff, now that they have become "investments" worth as much or more than many homes the game has changed.  Perhaps the bulk of anger should be directed to the fools who were willing to pay any amount of money no matter how much it took because they had to own the 340 Duster that looks just like the one they drooled over in high school?

[ccr-host]

There are a couple of considerations about the XP Hemi which I believe are being overlooked or intentionally disregarded by a few members here who simply want to "gin up" this non-issue.  I suggest you take their comments with a grain of salt.

First consider what percentage of this car is using "factory licensed" replacement parts – not LKQ, CAPA or imitation parts. AMD licenses a great deal of Chrysler authorized and inspected parts. Chrysler also makes a profit from the sale of these parts! They are sold to the public, as being authentic and meeting the 1969 standards. No modern process is applied such as; double dipped zinc coating, or modern metal thickness, in an effort to keep them authentic to Chrysler's original standards.

Secondly, I take exception to calling this a "re-body" or replacement body. This was, and is a RESTORATION.  We did not turn a second car into the XP Hemi. A more appropriate term may be "re-skinned" or "rebuilt" – not "re-bodied", for the simple reason an entirely new body was not used. A number of posters are comparing it to a Dynacorn body shell, which is not correct and not fair. I have built three Dynacorn shells and I can assure you, this is not in the same situation.  This car has components in it which rolled down the Chrysler assembly line – including the most important part as deemed by law: the entire firewall dash with the factory installed VIN plate. In addition, front rails, A – pillar, roof substructure components have all been retained. A Dynacorn body does not have a single component that came from Detroit or from the period the car represents and they certainly do not contain a manufacturers VIN tag!

Third, the partial ID numbers from the original car were part of an original section of sheet metal that did not require replacement. The section was not damaged and was saved. There are some here who are insistent that there wasn't enough effort made to save original panels or sections of the original car because we were showcasing sponsors products. If we had saved the original driver's door, as some are  insistent could have been done, and the door contained an ID number or plaque, would they also insist that it should not have been installed? I doubt it. Yet, saving it would have required extensive metal replacement or a patch panel made of NEW metal. Whose standards do we need to meet before what was done is acceptable: a couple of members of the MOPAR community? Or the law? To the very best of my knowledge, there is no law which states numbers other than the VIN cannot be saved and retained and grafted onto a new part. We treated the new trunk rain gutter piece and the top radiator support as a patch panel, rather than replacing the entire part, we left the section with the ID number on the original car. NOTHING was re-stamped. Those numbers came with this car ...and they are still with this car!

Fourth, the work performed on this car was done in the open light of day. Not in some back barn out of view from the public. The XP Hemi will also be known from this point forward as the car restored on Chop Cut Rebuild. Its restoration process will have been seen by millions of people around the world.  We have been and continue to be straight forward with what happened to the car and the details are evident to anyone who cares to watch the series. The idea that it could possibly have been done to deceive the next buyer is both preposterous and insulting!

End of rant! Thanks for enduring it!!

[Charger-Bodie]

Maybe we are trying to slay the wrong dragon here.  Back when the cars were worthless, we just didn't care about this kind of stuff, now that they have become "investments" worth as much or more than many homes the game has changed.  Perhaps the bulk of anger should be directed to the fools who were willing to pay any amount of money no matter how much it took because they had to own the 340 Duster that looks just like the one they drooled over in high school?

And thats why I am not bothered by the stuff.....The car lives on and to me Thats what matters.

[Ghoste]

Be patient Dan, you have to understand there are some very legitimate issues in the hobby today surrounding the topics we "gin up"-ing.  As unpleasant as you may find it, the car opens the door to that discussion and heated though it may sometimes become, it is still very much worth paying attention to.
The fact of the matter is that some the recent developments in our hobby have made it easier for the criminal element to do what they have been doing all along and it makes it harder to catch them as well.  The future of car restoration is under attack enough from the outside without the do gooders getting a leg up on us by them getting wind of some huge black market in fraudulent cars.  I am not implying that ther is one or that you are part of one or that you are creating one.  I am stating that we need to be vigilant to keep it at bay so the anti cars don't get another bullet for the green gun.

[ccr-host]

Be patient Dan, you have to understand there are some very legitimate issues in the hobby today surrounding the topics we "gin up"-ing.  As unpleasant as you may find it, the car opens the door to that discussion and heated though it may sometimes become, it is still very much worth paying attention to.
The fact of the matter is that some the recent developments in our hobby have made it easier for the criminal element to do what they have been doing all along and it makes it harder to catch them as well.  The future of car restoration is under attack enough from the outside without the do gooders getting a leg up on us by them getting wind of some huge black market in fraudulent cars.  I am not implying that ther is one or that you are part of one or that you are creating one.  I am stating that we need to be vigilant to keep it at bay so the anti cars don't get another bullet for the green gun.

Ghoste,

You are one of those who insist on calling it a "re-body". Perhaps, if you changed THAT perspective, we would agree.

[Alaskan_TA]

all the metal work was done in Georgia.

Aha! Useful information at last. Georgia does have a provision for 'restoring' numbers. Georgia VIN laws at http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudGA.shtml

Some interesting quotes from it;

(2) "Identification number" means an identifying number, serial number, engine number, or other distinguishing number or mark placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer or by authority of the commissioner or in accordance with the laws of another state or country.

§ 40-4-23. When identification number not deemed falsified

An identification number may be placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer in the regular course of business or placed or restored on a vehicle or engine by authority of the commissioner without violating this article. An identification number so placed or restored is not falsified.

(2)(A) The registered owner of any motor vehicle which is damaged to the extent that its restoration to an operable condition would require the replacement of the front clip assembly, which includes the fenders, hood, and bumper; the rear clip assembly, which includes the quarter panels, the floor panel assembly, and the roof assembly, excluding a soft top; the frame; and a complete side, which includes the fenders, door, and quarter panel shall mail or deliver the certificate of title to the commissioner for cancellation.

The key phrase seems to be 'by authority of the commissioner ' though. 

[Charger-Bodie]

I think its great that so many cars that would have been junked can be saved now.....My car is a great example. It would have been a parts car at best 5 years ago. It now has almost as much new AMD parts on it as thae one in question. I am proud of the work I did to the car and I will show all the steps. Its saved instead of junked.

[ccr-host]

all the metal work was done in Georgia.

Aha! Useful information at last. Georgia does have a provision for 'restoring' numbers. Georgia VIN laws at http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraudGA.shtml

Some interesting quotes from it;

(2) "Identification number" means an identifying number, serial number, engine number, or other distinguishing number or mark placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer or by authority of the commissioner or in accordance with the laws of another state or country.

§ 40-4-23. When identification number not deemed falsified

An identification number may be placed on a vehicle or engine by its manufacturer in the regular course of business or placed or restored on a vehicle or engine by authority of the commissioner without violating this article. An identification number so placed or restored is not falsified.

(2)(A) The registered owner of any motor vehicle which is damaged to the extent that its restoration to an operable condition would require the replacement of the front clip assembly, which includes the fenders, hood, and bumper; the rear clip assembly, which includes the quarter panels, the floor panel assembly, and the roof assembly, excluding a soft top; the frame; and a complete side, which includes the fenders, door, and quarter panel shall mail or deliver the certificate of title to the commissioner for cancellation.

The key phrase seems to be 'by authority of the commissioner ' though. 

The car is not registered in Georgia, so its rules are mute. The car will be registered in California, where it will be inspected and verified by a state authorized VIN inspector BEFORE a California registration will be issued.