Is anyone reproducing the broadcast sheets?

[rainbow4jd]

Sadly, all I have left of mine (all that was found) was the lower left corner with the NASCAR 2 designation.

I'd love to have a recreation.

Thanks.

[68X426]

You would want to check out the treads on this topic over at Moparts. They were both very involved, very detailed, and got heated debates, and raised a great many issues (both practical and ethical) about recreating one. Quite a good read, probably the best threads I've ever seen.

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5930247&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

And then followed by: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5949851&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

[nascarxx29]

Sadly, all I have left of mine (all that was found) was the lower left corner with the NASCAR 2 designation.

I'd love to have a recreation.

Thanks.

Some details of the sheets can be copied from others .To make you one up just to display.They to remake color copy window stickers.But the print hours of your cars sheet and the type fonts .Wont be exact as a original

Did you search car througly.The sheets turn up in all kinds of locations .End of steering column behind glove box cardboard.Under front bench seat.etc

[FJ5WING]

Sadly, all I have left of mine (all that was found) was the lower left corner with the NASCAR 2 designation.

I'd love to have a recreation.

Thanks.

Some details of the sheets can be copied from others .To make you one up just to display.They to remake color copy window stickers.But the print hours of your cars sheet and the type fonts .Wont be exact as a original

Did you search car througly.The sheets turn up in all kinds of locations .End of steering column behind glove box cardboard.Under front bench seat.etc

if you dont have it you dont have it....way too many potential problems with repopping them. Thats all part of what makes having the paperwork to a car special. If anyone could go out and REdocument any car all of the original documents become worthless.

[Beep Beep Dave]

Sadly if you blow your original engine will you be looking for a stamp kit to make it matching numbers again?
Dave

[rainbow4jd]

Well - on the topic of "reproduction and recreations" (this is my opinion only)....

A) While I respect the "original is all that counts" view - its rather short sighted in my opinion.  Afterall, who wouldn't put a "reproduction" quarter panel on their car if one was needed to restore it?   If you are prepared to use ANY reproduction part - then it seems to me, you've already committed to the idea of "reproduction" as a valid part of a vehicle restoration.  After that, you're just debating your own level of personal "degree" of reproduction.  (Note: this is NOT speaking to the required validity of the model, engine, and tranny requirements for originality)

B) With printer technology today that will allow you to virtually copy and print money - its only a matter of time before someone does the recreations/reproductions.   I probably even have the technology myself to do it - but it would take hours of set up time and paying a paper company to run me a special order reem of paper (which can be done for about $6,000).   My point is.... if it's not available today - it'll probably be available tomorrow. 

C) At the heart of the discussion is WHAT documentation and mechanical components TOGETHER make a car "an original" car?   And it looks like it comes down to these items - at least in my opinion only...

1) Engine stamp, tranny stamp, fender tag, and frame stamp match the VIN number
2) There is a clear title held by the owner of that VIN
3) A supportable position regarding options available on that particular vehicle that don't conflict with any of the above i.e. if the fender tag says "white buckets", it don't have black ones. 

To me - if you can come to the party with that stuff above.... then reproduction build sheets, window stickers, decals, etc. etc. etc.  really aren't much different than having a repro quarter panel.

And in the case of Superbirds - the options were so narrow and limited - the ONLY thing that I could think of that might appear on a broadcast sheet and NOT a fender tag might be - passenger side mirror, fm radio - is there anything else?


That being said - I would be perfectly happy with a reasonable facsimile that I could laminate.

Again - just my opinion.

[Beep Beep Dave]

Well - on the topic of "reproduction and recreations" (this is my opinion only)....

A) While I respect the "original is all that counts" view - its rather short sighted in my opinion.  Afterall, who wouldn't put a "reproduction" quarter panel on their car if one was needed to restore it?   If you are prepared to use ANY reproduction part - then it seems to me, you've already committed to the idea of "reproduction" as a valid part of a vehicle restoration.  After that, you're just debating your own level of personal "degree" of reproduction.  (Note: this is NOT speaking to the required validity of the model, engine, and tranny requirements for originality)

B) With printer technology today that will allow you to virtually copy and print money - its only a matter of time before someone does the recreations/reproductions.   I probably even have the technology myself to do it - but it would take hours of set up time and paying a paper company to run me a special order reem of paper (which can be done for about $6,000).   My point is.... if it's not available today - it'll probably be available tomorrow. 

C) At the heart of the discussion is WHAT documentation and mechanical components TOGETHER make a car "an original" car?   And it looks like it comes down to these items - at least in my opinion only...

1) Engine stamp, tranny stamp, fender tag, and frame stamp match the VIN number
2) There is a clear title held by the owner of that VIN
3) A supportable position regarding options available on that particular vehicle that don't conflict with any of the above i.e. if the fender tag says "white buckets", it don't have black ones. 

To me - if you can come to the party with that stuff above.... then reproduction build sheets, window stickers, decals, etc. etc. etc.  really aren't much different than having a repro quarter panel.

And in the case of Superbirds - the options were so narrow and limited - the ONLY thing that I could think of that might appear on a broadcast sheet and NOT a fender tag might be - passenger side mirror, fm radio - is there anything else?


That being said - I would be perfectly happy with a reasonable facsimile that I could laminate.

Again - just my opinion.

Let me guess...you collect Corvettes too? They do all that stuff, create a papertrail where none existed before. Stamp numbers, JB Weld casting numbers. Brings pretty much every car into question as to what it started out originally. Can't be any fun questioning every single car. Over the last couple of years you really see this creep into the Mopar hobby as well. Is it just me or does every 67 Vette a factory 427/435HP car?

To me its pretty simple, either your car has an original fender tag, broadcast sheet, window sticker, matching #'s engine etc or it doesn't. Each car is then judged on its own merits and how it has so far past the test of time.   

Dave

[pettybird]

Is it just me or does every 67 Vette a factory 427/435HP car?

Dave

you forgot knock off wheels and side pipes. 

we have cars with each level of documentation.  we have a bird with its broadcast sheet and fender tag, we have a bird with just its fender tag, and we have a Daytona with neither.  c'est la vie. 

[FJ5WING]

 parts do not compare to documents in any way.

sorry but thers no other way around it.  like I said you either have it or you dont.

[Arnie Cunningham]

And in the case of Superbirds - the options were so narrow and limited - the ONLY thing that I could think of that might appear on a broadcast sheet and NOT a fender tag might be - passenger side mirror, fm radio - is there anything else?



Thankfully, yes, most Superbirds were built like taxis and therefore there is little to document with paper that can not be visually done with the car itself.  Most Superbird build sheets are remarkably similar.  The factory wheel type would be something not on the fender tag.  Also, weird options such as six way seat, tinted windows, power windows would require the sheet.  I wish I had mine just for the sake of having it but there are no options on it verify that are not obviously factory installed.  I still hold out hope - my bucket seats were missing when I got the car - a sheet might still turn up some day if I find the seats.

[rainbow4jd]

parts do not compare to documents in any way.

sorry but thers no other way around it.  like I said you either have it or you dont.

Respect your opinion - but the true reality is in today's world - you either have it or you can buy it.

To me its like debating what makes an "original" or "natural" girl.  (Not meaning to be sexist here, just trying to make my point with some humor)

We might all agree that fake boobs are fake - but what if she has caps on her teeth?   How about fillings?   What if she's changed her hair color?  How about a little lipo?   Laser to the freckles?  Pierced ears or not?  And that whole makeup thing?

My point is - there are some things that definitely make her a "girl".   Once you get beyond those basics, everyone has an opinion of what they consider acceptable.   

To me a broadcast sheet is the equivalent of a replacement trunk floor - interesting conversation piece, be proud that you have it, but I'm going to equally proud of my reproduction one.  I'm not at all concerned about the "my car is more original than yours because I have original dirt from the factory floor" kind of debates. 

Those debates all get settled anyway when a car sells. 

So to me - it comes down to ONLY two defining kinds of cars.   Original, unrestored - or restored and if its a restored car, you can have a comparative hissy fit over who's vehicle is LESS restored than yours  i.e. more original than somebody elses, or simple restore it to your own personal satisfaction and not really care what someone else thinks.  In other words, as I believe I read on another thread (paraphrased) - "I got my opinion, and don't really care what yours is.... but I'm happy for you to have your opinion."   Which is not intended to be inflammatory but just to illustrate that the pride I have in my car - its not based on anyone's opinion but my own.

PS  I still have my original seat covers, but I promise not to look down on all those lesser value cars that have fakes.

[rainbow4jd]

And in the case of Superbirds - the options were so narrow and limited - the ONLY thing that I could think of that might appear on a broadcast sheet and NOT a fender tag might be - passenger side mirror, fm radio - is there anything else?



Thankfully, yes, most Superbirds were built like taxis and therefore there is little to document with paper that can not be visually done with the car itself.  Most Superbird build sheets are remarkably similar.  The factory wheel type would be something not on the fender tag.  Also, weird options such as six way seat, tinted windows, power windows would require the sheet.  I wish I had mine just for the sake of having it but there are no options on it verify that are not obviously factory installed.  I still hold out hope - my bucket seats were missing when I got the car - a sheet might still turn up some day if I find the seats.

In those option cases - on a Superbird - they would be so extra ordinarily rare that you'd probably get more questions if your car has them (even with a build sheet) than if they don't.    I also don't expect that they would make much difference in the selling price (at least with a Superbird or Daytona).   If it was a more popular car - like a 383 Road Runner - having those options might make a difference.   

But I feel pretty strongly the price is defined by Engine - Tranny matching numbers, followed by overall quality of the restoration.  And maybe build tag options.    But if someone is trying to tell me they have a "one of one" car because they got the only one with tinted glass - I'm just going to laugh at them.

PS I think the only way I get a sheet is if its in someone else's car by accident.

[Ghoste]

I'm absolutely 100% fine with a reproduction broadcast sheet... until the car turns up for sale touted as having all the original paperwork and being numbers matching and you better bring a giant credit rating to buy it.
Or better yet, borrowing from the girl analogy, what if the car was originally a 318 car with auto tran but now it has a Hemi (no different than fake boobs) and a four speed (not unlike caps on the teeth) with power windows (as easy as adding fillings to teeth) and air (if changing hair color still means the girl is jsut as good as the way she was born then it doesn't matter) change the color from something common and mundane to an exciting and rare high impact hue (no worse than a little lipo) replace all the sheet metal (like lasering freckles).
Some will buy the repro sheet and have it accurate to the car and thats great but don't ever kid yourself that many many many many others will make a fake one to represent the car they wish they were trying to sell you.

[FJ5WING]

I'm absolutely 100% fine with a reproduction broadcast sheet... until the car turns up for sale touted as having all the original paperwork and being numbers matching and you better bring a giant credit rating to buy it.

thats exactly why its so vital to not have repopped documents.......But lets talk more about dental work or fake tits.

if the repopped sheets arent going to be used to help resell the cars why would anyone want one? To look at it and feel proud that you just bought another part? I dont get it

[maxwellwedge]

A big name in the hobby (has a couple of books out and is held in esteem by many members on this site - me excluded) had another big name in the hobby (another held in esteem) make a fake buildsheet for him for a 150k Hemi car with a lot of "new" options and codes on it and proceded to sell the car with the claim that the sheet was real. Well, he got popped for it and had to take back the car and refund the money....And is lucky that was all.

Temptation and time make reproduction items turn original.

I have a little problem with the whole counterfeit broadcast concept unless it is emblazoned with "This is a Reproduction" across it.

[moparstuart]

A big name in the hobby (has a couple of books out and is held in esteem by many members on this site - me excluded) had another big name in the hobby (another held in esteem) make a fake buildsheet for him for a 150k Hemi car with a lot of "new" options and codes on it and proceded to sell the car with the claim that the sheet was real. Well, he got popped for it and had to take back the car and refund the money....And is lucky that was all.

Temptation and time make reproduction items turn original.

I have a little problem with the whole counterfeit broadcast concept unless it is emblazoned with "This is a Reproduction" across it.

[Dodge Don]

A big name in the hobby (has a couple of books out and is held in esteem by many members on this site - me excluded) had another big name in the hobby (another held in esteem) make a fake buildsheet for him for a 150k Hemi car with a lot of "new" options and codes on it and proceded to sell the car with the claim that the sheet was real. Well, he got popped for it and had to take back the car and refund the money....And is lucky that was all.

Temptation and time make reproduction items turn original.

I have a little problem with the whole counterfeit broadcast concept unless it is emblazoned with "This is a Reproduction" across it.

Galen Govier and Dave Walden?

[mauve66]

Temptation and time make reproduction items turn original.

I have a little problem with the whole counterfeit broadcast concept unless it is emblazoned with "This is a Reproduction" across it.

so that would solve it then, kinda like copywrited pics on the internet that have that ghost/watermark on them??

or can photoshop let someone take that and make it "original" also???

[Ghoste]

If they are skilled enough with photoshop to do that they can likely already make the fake sheet on their own or with minimal help.

[BigBlockSam]

I'm absolutely 100% fine with a reproduction broadcast sheet... until the car turns up for sale touted as having all the original paperwork and being numbers matching and you better bring a giant credit rating to buy it.

[rainbow4jd]

I'm absolutely 100% fine with a reproduction broadcast sheet... until the car turns up for sale touted as having all the original paperwork and being numbers matching and you better bring a giant credit rating to buy it.
Or better yet, borrowing from the girl analogy, what if the car was originally a 318 car with auto tran but now it has a Hemi (no different than fake boobs) and a four speed (not unlike caps on the teeth) with power windows (as easy as adding fillings to teeth) and air (if changing hair color still means the girl is jsut as good as the way she was born then it doesn't matter) change the color from something common and mundane to an exciting and rare high impact hue (no worse than a little lipo) replace all the sheet metal (like lasering freckles).
Some will buy the repro sheet and have it accurate to the car and thats great but don't ever kid yourself that many many many many others will make a fake one to represent the car they wish they were trying to sell you.

I know this is going to sound weird in rebuttal - but so what?  What is the issue?

A sale is between a buyer and a seller - not me looking over their shoulder with my opinion.   The seller has a responsibility to not misrepresent the car.  If he does, he can get sued by the buyer for fraud - which can be a jail time offense (but, I ain't got nothing to do with it - I'm not involved).   

On the other hand, the buyer has the responsibility to inspect the car to his satisfaction.  If he is a dope and doesn't ask for clarification or know enough to figure out its a fake - shame on him.  Haven't you heard of "caveat emptor"?  Buyer beware?

But what business is it of ours what the price is?  And why the heck would we be upset IF the price is high?   High prices are a good thing!

Your analogy of engine swap and color swaps all have nothing to do with the broadcast sheet.    The VIN number links the car, engine, and tranny together.  The fender tag (which I admit can be duplicated) speaks to the other essential options.   At the point you start to debate whether the vehicle has air conditioning from the factory, was dealer installed, or added as a "fake" - you are talking so small of dollars (relative to the total price of the vehicle) that it doesn't matter.   I mean really.... IF I am buying a hemi car, do you think the seller would do anything but laugh at me if I said, "Well, I'm not certain those dual mirrors were factory original options, so why don't you take $20,000 off?"


By the way, if a guy is going to "fraud" the powertrain (i.e. restamp metal and VINS) - A) that's probably serious jail time and B) do you really think the broadcast sheet will even be in the discussion?   I figure you've got more chance of the Russian mob stealing your identity than being ripped off like that.

Again, why should I be upset over somebody else's business?   My only concern is my car.  How does any of this reduce the value of my car?  Instead (if it is occurring as you indicated) it only makes my car more valuable.

It's very hard for me to understand the mentality of "policing" somebody else's business.  The broadcast sheet is so far down on the list of important items for authentication that I just don't see why its such an emotional issue.

I intend to duplicate the window sticker and broadcast sheet on my vehicle, and consider those part of the "restoration" process.   As mentioned, in the post above, to me - there is only two categories:  original, unrestored and restored.   If your car is a restoration (i.e. repainted, body work, replacement parts, etc. etc the broadcast sheet has no more signifance than does the trunk floor) IMO

[rainbow4jd]

I'm absolutely 100% fine with a reproduction broadcast sheet... until the car turns up for sale touted as having all the original paperwork and being numbers matching and you better bring a giant credit rating to buy it.

thats exactly why its so vital to not have repopped documents.......But lets talk more about dental work or fake tits.

if the repopped sheets arent going to be used to help resell the cars why would anyone want one? To look at it and feel proud that you just bought another part? I dont get it

I am doing a total restoration on my Superbird.  I am restoring the trunk floor (by welding in a totally fake reproduction part) among other NOS parts.  I have no emotional turmoil over doing that because when I sell the car - I'll be showing the photos of my car on the rotisserie and selling the value and quality of the "restoration".    I am not representing the car as "unrestored, original".   Thus, restoration - inclusive of decals, window sticker, and broadcast sheet reproductions - don't in anyway suggest my car is "unrestored, original" - its a RESTORATION and will look like one, because it will be better than factory paint, fit, and finish. 

Think about what we are debating.... "My car has LESS restoration parts than yours does, so MINE IS BETTER."   Which is totally bogus, because our cars will never be in the classification of "unrestored, original" - all we are debating is quality and detail of restoration - and a restored car will never be original, no matter what paperwork you have.

While I respect everyone's differing opinion - I'm going to do a repro broadcast sheet for my 'Bird, and include it with the car at Barrett Jackson.  If you ask me if its a repro - I'll say "yes" - and if you don't ask, I presume its not important for you when valuing my car.   Bottomline, if you don't like my level of detail on my restoration (which included restoring the paperwork - just like I did the parts), don't bid on my car.

Which answers your final question....  I want a broadcast sheet, because I am including that level of detail in my restoration, it makes me happy to have one, and that's all the justification needed.   

[rainbow4jd]

If they are skilled enough with photoshop to do that they can likely already make the fake sheet on their own or with minimal help.

this is true - and I can do it.  Although finding the font is a bit challenging.  But I have 10,000 font's to work from.

The hardest thing is duplicating the paper.   But I have a friend in the printing business who says IF I want to pay enough, I can get original old stock paper.

[Ghoste]

So if you end up paying big bucks someday for a rare car only to discover later on that the documentation to prove that it was what the seller claimed was bogus, you'll be okay with it right?
If you think the broadcast sheet has nothing to do with linking things together, you are sorely mistaken and trust me, there are a HELL of a lot more matching number drivetrains today than there were about 20 years ago.  Engine and trans numbers can easily be faked as well.  Not to mention of course, that those number can only be used from 68 up.
Let us also not forget that the broadcast sheet reflects option content and option content has a very real impact on a cars percieved rarity and value. (color too)
My very first comment still rings true, if you want to make a repro sheet for your car, go right ahead, I am okay with it.   If you decide to alter the car and make a sheet to reflect that, then it isn't a reproduction sheet it's a fraudulent one.
If you are only disclosing the reproduction sheet to someone astute enough to ask, then in my opinion that also be, if not fraudulent, at least a dishonorable way to do business.
This isn't something you are doing to hang on your wall in the garage or display at shows.  You freely admit that it's to go with the car to the auction because you have done such a high level restoration that as far as your concerned the car deserves a broadcast sheet.  If you are selling it, what do you care about paperwork that reflects the car pedigreee?  Because you know it increases the value and/or saleability of the car.  Period. 
If you truly don't believe having reproduction paperwork means anything extra in your pocket, then I challenge you to display the car prior to the auction with a sign boldly pointing out that you have created the paperwork yourself.  Of course if you don't feel that is required then I will presume that it IS important to you in establishing a value for the car.

[Aero426]

Think about what we are debating.... "My car has LESS restoration parts than yours does, so MINE IS BETTER."  

Hate to tell you, but that's kind of how it works.    Personally, I'd rather own the car that had one repaint versus a pretty rotisserie job that's been through the wringer.    There's a reason guys search out and pay for the NOS stuff too.    

While I respect everyone's differing opinion - I'm going to do a repro broadcast sheet for my 'Bird, and include it with the car at Barrett Jackson.  If you ask me if its a repro - I'll say "yes" - and if you don't ask, I presume its not important for you when valuing my car.   Bottomline, if you don't like my level of detail on my restoration (which included restoring the paperwork - just like I did the parts), don't bid on my car.

You can try and justify this all you want, but it's going to be hard to make it fly.     Buyers will never feel all warm and fuzzy when hearing someone admit they faked a build sheet.