Broken tie bars on lifters???

[PFA42]

I recently had my 69 440 rebuilt. Upgraded the cam and valvetrain to full roller style. About 600 miles into the new motor and it started not sounding to good. Inspection revealed that 3 tie bars broke on the lifters, allowed the lifters to turn and smoked my cam.

Does anyone have any input as to what would cause this besides faulty parts?

[TylerCharger69]

what were the rocker arm ratios???

[PFA42]

I couldn't tell you off hand but I'm running 440 source roller rocker set up.

[68X426]

Sorry, I can't help, I'm here to learn more too. 

[Challenger340]

Tie Bar Interference with the Block while in motion,
or,
Tie Bars "sitting" on the top of the Lifter Gallery when on the base circle of the Camshaft.(small base circle Cam)
or
not enough "Travel" in the Tie Bar slot to accomodate the Cam Lift.

How are you controlling the Camshaft End Thrust, and what was the End Thrust Clearance on the Cam when installed?

I've never seen Tie bar Failure, unless one of the above 4.

[PFA42]

From what I understand there's a "cam button" controlling cam end thrust. I don't know what the end clearance is (it was set up by my mechanic).  As for the block interference there wasn't any evidence that there was. It's possible that there was lack of travel and I have no clue if the tie bars were sitting on top of the lifter gallery. Thanks for the feedback!

I have to replace the cam and lifters. Is there a certain set up anyone recommends so I won't be breaking parts in the future?

[PFA42]

1.5 ratio on the roller rockers

[firefighter3931]

What brand were these lifters ? Like Bob said there can be several contributing factors that lead to failure. Cams with smaller base circles can cause issues with lifter boss interferance 

The 440 source roller rockers are NOT what i would run with a solid roller cam....i wouldn't use them with a flat tappet hydraulic either !  You need better rocker arms for sure ; Harland Sharp or T&D if you expect it to survive for any length of time. 

The Comp #829 is the default  solid roller lifter but there are better/more durable options out there. I went with a set of Isky EZ-Roll lifters which have bushings as opposed to needles on the axles and also have pressurized oil to the axle/wheel area. They are expensive but so is losing an engine due to lifter failure. 



Ron

[PFA42]

Ron
The lifters are scorpion. Out of curiosity, why are the 440 source rockers junk?

Do you recommend getting away from the hydraulic roller set up all together? Like I mentioned before I don't have the build sheet in front of me so all I can tell you off hand is that the cam and lifters are both hydraulic roller style.
Which set of rocker arms by sharp or t&d?

[Challenger340]

Apologies, when you said ROLLERIZED, i just assumed it was "Mechanical" Roller ?

I am not a Fan of HYDRAULIC Rollers for BB Mopars

On the Dyno,
I have seen good Power curves from Hyd Rollers, but certainly NOT enough, to warrant the extra costs & pitfalls I've experienced, over a regular Solid Flat Tappet(even with the Break-in and Zinc additive Headaches)
or,
the "Why" Hyd Rollers, as opposed to going directly to a "Street" grind, SOLID Mechanical Roller ?

I've just had too many Headaches with the BB Mopar Hydraulic Rollers, everything from stuck Plungers, Bleed down, Valvetrain geometry Gremlins, and a balancing act @ rpm keeping them pumped up against Spring Pressures.

Time is Money for me, been burnt already.
I'll wait until somebody, or Manufacturer, figures out getting the BB Mopar Hydraulic Roller stuff a "No brainer" before I play again with a Customers stuff.
until then,
Hydraulic Flat Tappet
or
Solid Flat Tappet
or
STREEET Solid Roller
or
Race Solid Roller
In THAT order.


I don't like unhappy Customers, or wasting my time playing with JUNK, I'm leaving the BB Mopar Hydraulic Roller stuff in the Store.

[firefighter3931]

Ron
The lifters are scorpion. Out of curiosity, why are the 440 source rockers junk?

Do you recommend getting away from the hydraulic roller set up all together? Like I mentioned before I don't have the build sheet in front of me so all I can tell you off hand is that the cam and lifters are both hydraulic roller style.
Which set of rocker arms by sharp or t&d?

There have been numerous documemented cases of the Source rocker arms coming apart. One member here had two failures resulting in dropped valves and engine rebuilds. Rocker arms are not an area to cut corners on. 

I assumed you were running some type of solid roller cam. Like Bob, i don't see any huge advantage vs a solid flat tappet. If you're going roller cam it better be worth it to justify the added cost and increased maintenance ! 

There's nothing wrong with a flat tappet solid as long as you use good oil and select the correct matching components. You can have the cam nitrided and use EDM lifters to address the low speed lubrication issues and have it survive in street duty. The rocker arm selection isn't as critical either. I really like the Crane ductile iron rockers for this type of application. You won't break them, period ! 



Ron

[PFA42]

Tracking on what you guys are saying. At this point I want a strong reliable engine.  I've read a bunch of the builds in the engine build section.  Is there a preferred valve train and cam you all suggest?  Since my current configuration crapped out and I have to replace the cam and lifters what is the best combo, building off of what I already have?  (Even if I have to replace the rocker arms and valve springs to get it right.)

This is what I have now:

-Block has been bored .040 making it a 4.360 bore, and has the standard stroke of 3.750 equating to 447 cubic inches.
-Pistons are forged aluminum and have been individually fitted to each cylinder by precision honing.
-Crankshaft is a forged steel piece re-ground to .010 undersize.
-Heads are "906" factory cast iron heads that have the runners smoothed and valves re-faced.
-Camshaft is Comp Hydraulic Roller, 440 source roller rocker arms, 1.5 ratio. Scorpion Hydraulic Roller lifters and custom pushrods. Spring rates were matched to cam as required.
-Intake is an aluminum Edelbrock dual plane (CH46)
-Edelbrock 1411 (750 CFM with electric choke)
-MSD Distributor with an MSD 6AL ignition control box
-factory windage tray.
-Headers are TTI 1-7/8" primary tubes
-Exhaust is TTI; 3" mandrel bent aluminized pipe with an 'X' pipe, Dynomax mufflers.

[Challenger340]

Just a "bump" here, so your staying close to the top, easier to spot.
and,
whats the
Tire Diameter ?
Rear Gearing ?
Convertor Stall Speed or 4 gear ?
What Hyd Roller grind were you running that failed ?

I'm sure Ron will chime in soon, he's the guru with the best "real world" experience for your application.
I build & Dyno, but I have limited feedback on how they "drive".    

The Comp xs282 may be a good "default" Cam Choice ? but go with what Cam Ron thinks is best !

[PFA42]

My cam is Camshaft:  Comp Cams XR280HR-10,  .541/.537 gross lift, 230/236 duration @ .050" lift
Tires are approximate 28 inches measured from the floor to the top. Wheel size is 15x7 front and 15x8.
3.91 gears on 8 3/4 suregrip. 2500 stall/727 TF
The scorpion hyd roller lifters are what failed. When the tie bars broke they spun around and torched the cam. I really enjoyed the build until it crapped out. Not necessarily looking to make changes other than trying to figure out what caused the lifter tie bars to break. However, I'm all ears.

[firefighter3931]

Based on those parameters i like the XS282S solid....seems Bob and I are on the same page. I specced this cam for Vegas Mike (see proven engine section for buildup & dyno results) Ideally i'd like to see a little more stall than you have but it should still work fine.

Definately degree it in and install on a 104* intake centerline to give it more low end grunt. I would also have the cam nitrided and use a set of EDM priority lube lifters. The valvesprings you're using now with the 280 hyd roller are fine so you don't have to touch the heads. 

The cam will have to be custom ordered to get the nitride treatment so ask them to grind it on a 3 bolt core so you can use your current timing chain set. The off the shelf xs282s uses a single bolt upper gear (FYI) 

Crane ductile iron 1.5 rocker arms and matching pushrods are all you need to complete a durable/bulletproof valvetrain.

The other comment i'll make relates to your carburator...you need something much better ! I like the proform double pumpers for this type of application. A 750cfm race series PF carb would be my choice hands down. You probably won't have to mess with it all. 


Ron

[oldschool]

x 2 on the carb....
i also have never heard of the link bars breaking.

[PFA42]

Ron,

Mechanical or vacuum secondary?

Do you suggest ditching the edelbrock for the proform just for this build or different configurations as well?

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

Mechanical or vacuum secondary?

Do you suggest ditching the edelbrock for the proform just for this build or different configurations as well?

All double pumper style carbs are mechanical secondary. Not a fan of edelbrock carbs unless the engine is built to stock specs.

You've got a performance cam, excellent intake manifold and quality headers/exhaust....let the big dog eat ! 


Ron

[charger2fast4u]

i to suggest the proform carbs i am running a proform 750 dp setup on my pretty much stock motor and like it. only thing i wish i could change would be to go with the one with a choke on it instead of the race version gets alittle hard to start sometimes especially on a daily driver.

[PFA42]

Rgr that on the carb. I was going to ask about the streetability of it.  There's no track anywhere close by so the only racing I get to do is on I-5 in SoCal and around the neighborhood from light to light. My Charger is a driver for the most part...how's the proform race using it in a driver car?

I read the sticky on the water pump and housing. I'm pretty sure that I'm running a stock set up there. Glad I didn't go to the source for that piece.

Ron any recommendations on "what to say" to 440 source to see if they'll allow me to return their roller rockers? I think I'm going to have to eat it there.

As for the Crane Rocker arms: How often would I be adjusting them to keep them within specs (on the norm). I was under the impression that with the roller set up I have been running it was basically set and go and relatively maint free.

Much appreciation for all the info you all have been providing me this week. Too bad you're in Canada or I'd just wheel in and check out your set up. I'll be in Buffalo for a week in August...maybe the capital of Canada needs a visit to check out your set up.

[PFA42]

Update: scorpion told me "oh well" on the lifters breaking.

Does anyone have any recommendations on what to do? Should this failure fall in the lap of the mechanic that did all the work? Right now he's going to cover all labor but wants me to buy the parts. Does that sound fair? Any input is appreciated.

[firefighter3931]

how's the proform race using it in a driver car?

I read the sticky on the water pump and housing. I'm pretty sure that I'm running a stock set up there. Glad I didn't go to the source for that piece.

Ron any recommendations on "what to say" to 440 source to see if they'll allow me to return their roller rockers? I think I'm going to have to eat it there.

As for the Crane Rocker arms: How often would I be adjusting them to keep them within specs (on the norm). I was under the impression that with the roller set up I have been running it was basically set and go and relatively maint free.

Much appreciation for all the info you all have been providing me this week. Too bad you're in Canada or I'd just wheel in and check out your set up. I'll be in Buffalo for a week in August...maybe the capital of Canada needs a visit to check out your set up.

The Proform carbs run nice on the street....i've recommended them to many members here with excellent results. 

440 Source won't be receptive...especially if the part hasn't failed yet. E-bay them while they're still in one piece.  The crane gold or even the ductile iron rockers would serve your needs very well. Expect to check the valves once a season and you won't have to adjust more than a couple, if that. The XS282S isn't super agressive so it's easy on valvetrain parts. 

The stock WP housing with a good waterpump is all you really need....i ended up going back and my overheating issues were eliminated. 

Hope this helps....


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Update: scorpion told me "oh well" on the lifters breaking.

Does anyone have any recommendations on what to do? Should this failure fall in the lap of the mechanic that did all the work? Right now he's going to cover all labor but wants me to buy the parts. Does that sound fair? Any input is appreciated.

I guess the big question is who supplied the parts and was there any warranty given by the mechanic ? If you supplied the lifters i can see him saying you're on your own....unfortunately. He does sound reasonable in that he's willing to warrenty the labor. 


Ron

[charger2fast4u]

The stock WP housing with a good waterpump is all you really need....i ended up going back and my overheating issues were eliminated. 

Hope this helps....


Ron
[/quote]

what kind of waterpump and housing were you running when it was overheating? did you  swap to a stock housing and better pump?

[PFA42]

Ron,

My mechanic supplied all the parts and performed all the work minus the machine shop work. There was no written or verbal explanation of a warranty. My thoughts are when anyone spends a couple thousand it's implied that the work is going to last more than a few hundred miles.

Does anyone have an engine builder in the San Diego area they would recommend?

[Belgium R/T -68]

FWIW, I have build 2 engines with stock rockersetup after listening to Ron. One 440 for the GTX and now the 500 stroker for the Charger.
Never had any better engines and both also uses the Proform carb.

Per

[oldkimmer]

Ron,

My mechanic supplied all the parts and performed all the work minus the machine shop work. There was no written or verbal explanation of a warranty. My thoughts are when anyone spends a couple thousand it's implied that the work is going to last more than a few hundred miles.

Does anyone have an engine builder in the San Diego area they would recommend?

.................Give Brian Halfiger a call at IMM  Engines in Indio Ca...............kim.........

[firefighter3931]

The stock WP housing with a good waterpump is all you really need....i ended up going back and my overheating issues were eliminated. 

Hope this helps....


Ron

what kind of waterpump and housing were you running when it was overheating? did you  swap to a stock housing and better pump?
[/quote]


Check out the sticky thread at the top of this page....lots of good info !


Ron

[firefighter3931]

Ron,

My mechanic supplied all the parts and performed all the work minus the machine shop work. There was no written or verbal explanation of a warranty. My thoughts are when anyone spends a couple thousand it's implied that the work is going to last more than a few hundred miles.

Does anyone have an engine builder in the San Diego area they would recommend?

If the mechanic purchased the parts then HE should be dealing with the supplier to make things right 


Ron

[PFA42]

Running stock water pump and housing. I think my overheating problem is from running to small of a fan. It's an electric dual setup but probably not pushing enough air.

Thanks for all the input guys. I'll keep ya posted on the outcome.