This is a bunch of BS. Iroquois lacrosse team denied entry into the UK

[bull]

The Iroquois invented the d^%n game and have the passports issued by their own sovereign nation to travel worldwide but the UK won't let them in unless they get the approval of the US State Dept. This is a threat to the sovereignty of Indian nations all across the US. This has never been an issue until now. First the US State Dept. farted around too long and when they did do something it wasn't enough.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SPORT/07/14/sport.iroquois.passport.controversy/index.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iI149z8c0uBRphmB54w06NhPQlNwD9H1321O0
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/us/16iroquoisweb.html

"The team's travel plans were first thrown into question last week, when the British government said the players would not be allowed to travel on their tribal passports unless the American government provided written assurance that they would be allowed to re-enter the United States after the tournament.

Federal officials refused to do that until Wednesday morning, when Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton authorized a one-time waiver clearing the way for the team to travel without United States passports, which it has refused to accept."

[68X426]

I read about this travesty, thanks for posting Bull.

I am just too tired to rant about this one. Wrong in every possible way. 

[mauve66]

they live in Canada, why would they need US passports
the "nation" is in upstate NY, so they don't even live in their "nation"
passports have had required upgrades for quite awhile now, all other "nations" know about it
both sides are completely jacked up, and we wonder how terrorists get into this country??
this is what happens when everyone has to have their own little special interest group get recognized or their being discriminated against somehow
kinda like when hotrod doesn't put enough mopars in their magazine....................

[bull]

they live in Canada, why would they need US passports
the "nation" is in upstate NY, so they don't even live in their "nation"
passports have had required upgrades for quite awhile now, all other "nations" know about it
both sides are completely jacked up, and we wonder how terrorists get into this country??
this is what happens when everyone has to have their own little special interest group get recognized or their being discriminated against somehow
kinda like when hotrod doesn't put enough mopars in their magazine....................

Some live in Canada, some live in the US but none of them have US or Canadian passports, just the Iroquois nation passports. This is not an interest group, this is a sovereign nation that was in place long before the US was created. The treaties struck between the US govt. and these Indian tribes have recognized them as sovereign nations since the US was created. They are not trying to start some stupid little Indian club where they pound their chests and say "look at us." Actually it's more like the US and UK pounding their chests saying "look at us" because this has never been a problem throughout the history of the Iroquois nation until now. It's no different than if a Canadian citizen with a Canadian passport one day suddenly had to get permission from the US govt. to travel abroad.

[TK73]

Don't need to go any further than this:

"We would be pleased to welcome the Iroquois Nationals Lacrosse Team, but like all those seeking entry into the U.K., they must present a document that we recognize as valid to enable us to complete our immigration and other checks."

If the UK does not recognize the documents as valid, they don't recognize the documents as valid.

[Ponch ®]

The Iroquois invented the d^%n game and have the passports issued by their own sovereign nation to travel worldwide but the UK won't let them in unless they get the approval of the US State Dept. This is a threat to the sovereignty of Indian nations all across the US. This has never been an issue until now. First the US State Dept. farted around too long and when they did do something it wasn't enough.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SPORT/07/14/sport.iroquois.passport.controversy/index.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iI149z8c0uBRphmB54w06NhPQlNwD9H1321O0
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/16/us/16iroquoisweb.html

"The team's travel plans were first thrown into question last week, when the British government said the players would not be allowed to travel on their tribal passports unless the American government provided written assurance that they would be allowed to re-enter the United States after the tournament.

Federal officials refused to do that until Wednesday morning, when Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton authorized a one-time waiver clearing the way for the team to travel without United States passports, which it has refused to accept."

Seems to me that if they are indeed sovereign nations, then the US State Department has no obligation whatsoever to "do anything" or intercede on their behalf. Let them deal with the UK directly.

Can't have it both ways...

[TK73]

Seems to me that if they are indeed sovereign nations, then the US State Department has no obligation whatsoever to "do anything" or intercede on their behalf. Let them deal with the UK directly.

Can't have it both ways...

There ya go makin sense again, gotta cut that sh!t out...

[TK73]

I'm wondering when Bull became a bleeding-heart liberal vested in the "special rights" of a minority group...   

[TK73]

List of Sovereign states:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states

Definition of sovereignty:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Sovereign+nation

[Ponch ®]

I'm wondering when Bull became a bleeding-heart liberal vested in the "special rights" of a minority group...   

[tricky lugnuts]

At the risk of being politically incorrect and offensive, the U.S. and U.K. have been going against their words and promises with the Iroquois and every other Indian tribe since the 17th century.  

Agreed with Bull: This is a bunch of honky B.S.

For goodness' sake, these people just want to play in a tournament and go back home.

According to the New York Times article, the U.K. agreed to let them in for the tournament if the U.S. State Department promised to let the members of the tribe reenter the U.S. afterward. The U.S. did that and the U.K. proceeded to say: Sorry, no deal.  

To stretch and pick a fight, I wonder where the passports were of all the Europeans coming over here to decimate and steal, sorry, "colonize" and "civilize" a continent. Maybe the Indians should have just said to the Pilgrims and all the other people trying to escape English tyranny and European hopelessness: Sorry, your passports don't comply with our security standards. Please return to your land of origin.

Instead they helped keep them from starving and freezing to death that first winter. Suckers. Granted, it wasn't the Iroquois, but the argument remains the same. The U.K. and other European countries, including the U.S., have been crapping on indigenous peoples for hundreds of years: India, South America, the Caribbean, the Congo . . .

Sorry to any U.K. members on the board here that may be insulted, but come on. I for one say thank goodness the sun has set on the British Empire.

The Iroquois ought to host the tournament next year and deny the U.K. entry. Or better yet, let them in and then kick their butts just to show them who is the bigger nation.

[bull]

I'm wondering when Bull became a bleeding-heart liberal vested in the "special rights" of a minority group...  

I think it's more libertarian than bleeding heart liberal or more anti big government than pro minority. I'm more interested in the rights of those who were here first than those who came and squatted, stole and pillaged; must like what the illegal immigrants are doing in the US now.

And a Wikipedia link that lists soveriegn nations doesn't really sway my opinion. I wonder if that's what the UK uses to decide who gets let in? That could explain why they've got a bunch of terrorists running around England blowing up train stations but no Indians.

[TK73]

Well guys, that's all nice and PC but it obfuscates the fact that the UK makes their own decisions on their Visas and a special interest group wants the US to lobby on their behalf.

All these guys had to do was to have a valid document that the UK recognizes. Seems somebody in their "Nation" didn't bother to keep on track with their papers validity... The Iroquois Embassy in DC (WHAT, they don't have one?!?!) should have contacted the UK Embassy in DC to check on their papers...


Again:

"We would be pleased to welcome the Iroquois Nationals Lacrosse Team, but like all those seeking entry into the U.K., they must present a document that we recognize as valid to enable us to complete our immigration and other checks."

Case closed   


PS: the Wiki article references include the CIA, The EU and the UN.  Most likely the info is valid.   

[451-74Charger]

The U.K clearly have a list of valid documents/Visas for entering the country listed on thier website, takes what, 5 seconds to google?
Not wanting to offend, but if you are too ignorant to check on the recognised entry documentation of a foreign country, thats your boo hoo.
How hard was it to google or call the British Embassy/Consulate?

I jumped through hoops, and submitted many documents for the USA to let me come here, and I complied with EVERY requirement listed, I didnt just say, well i have a valid UK drivers license so let me in.

People. It is up to you to make sure YOU comply with a countries stated requirements. If YOU do not, dont cry discrimination.
The British werent trying to stop them comming in, they just didnt want the US to deny them back (doesnt that make the US sound like the bad guy now?), and having the UK being stuck with them.

[tricky lugnuts]

I don't see what's "politically correct" about anything and I don't think anyone is crying "discrimination" in this case.

Yes, the UK makes its own decisions about what passports it recognizes, who it will issue Visas to and who enters the UK. Its a SOVEREIGN nation!

But calling the Iroquois "a special interest group" is about as far from reality as it gets.

The Grand Council of the Iroquois League is "the oldest governmental institution still maintaining its original form in North America." The Native American Rights Fund, the National Congress of American Indians - those are "special interest groups," "advocates," or "lobbyists" as you might call them.

The Iroquois League is a sovereign confederation of tribes. Granted, it may not be internationally recognized by every country out there. Obviously it's not recognized by the U.K. The only issue being argued is whether the U.K. should have recognized their tribal passports or, at least, issued them temporary travel Visas.

The only "special treatment" in this case is the fact that the U.S. State Department granted members of the team a one-time waiver to travel abroad and RETURN to the U.S. on their tribal passports. The U.K. had said that would be enough to let the team in and then reneged. International promise broken by the U.K. Not the first . . .

I'm guessing Hillary Clinton ordered that "special treatment" to avoid one hell of a black eye (a sort of "stay on the rez, redman" perception) for both countries - keeping in mind that this has been an ongoing issue with a number of sovereign tribes in the U.S. and the extent to which their sovereignty should be recognized or forced to conform at the state, federal and international level.

Call it "PC" or what you will, but I can't say I blame the Iroquois for wanting to use passports issued by their own government and not appeasing the British or U.S. by seeking out a U.S. or Canadian passport. They're Iroquois.

To put this into perspective, this would be like the U.S. or the U.K. telling the Dalai Lama to get a Chinese passport because they don't recognize Tibet or the security features of Tibet's passports. It ought to be a damn Monty Python skit about how stupid and terrified people, or at least governments, have become about largely inconsequential matters.

This incident simply further cements in my mind that the U.S. and British governments are both comprised of buffoons.

Suffice to say, the lacrosse tournament went on without a team from the nation of people who invented the game some 1,000 years ago because the British and U.S. (the so-called land of the free, home of the brave) are too skittish about the "security features" of an Indian tribe's passport to let what, 23 people or so, travel abroad for a week to play in an athletic event. The U.K. ought to have considered it a damn honor that the Iroquois wanted to visit the stinking place.

And this coming from the U.S., the same country that won't do squat and hasn't done squat for decades, DECADES, to prevent the roughly 11 million people who are here today from illegally entering by sneaking across its borders from Mexico.

451-74 Charger, I understand your point that you had to jump through the hoops to enter the U.S. and they should, too. I sympathize. That's one reason I don't have a U.S. passport.

I just don't think the Iroquois are ignorant for insisting on their sovereignty. After 200 years of being screwed they probably want to live a little on their own people's terms. Of course, the U.K. is free to reject that. And frankly, I'm not surprised that's the course they took.

[tricky lugnuts]

Also, it looks like the only security requirement the Iroquois passports are missing are RFID chips. The Iroquois passports are "just paper" and RFID chips are required per the "Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative" that went into effect last year:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/bob_ford/20100716_Bob_Ford__The_tangled_story_of_the_Iroquois_lacrosse_team.html

Got to love the those hemispherical travel initiatives! Better than trade agreements for trashing a nation's sovereignty. Thankfully our folks in Congress, ever intelligent, decided that we all wanted to join! Yay! RFID me!

[451-74Charger]

I just don't think the Iroquois are ignorant for insisting on their sovereignty. After 200 years of being screwed they probably want to live a little on their own people's terms. Of course, the U.K. is free to reject that. And frankly, I'm not surprised that's the course they took.

I probably chose the wrong words , but if a country has a written stated list of recognised documentation, it is up to the visitor to comply. period.

I think that a call to the British govt ahead of time could have avoided this embarrasment.

I also feel for the Iroquois, being s Sovereign nation and having pride in that nation, this was a real slap in the face to them. Maybe the Queen of England should "try" to visit with them and officially apologise on behalf of her Nation to the Iroquois Nation.

[bull]

Well guys, that's all nice and PC but it obfuscates the fact that the UK makes their own decisions on their Visas and a special interest group wants the US to lobby on their behalf.

All these guys had to do was to have a valid document that the UK recognizes. Seems somebody in their "Nation" didn't bother to keep on track with their papers validity... The Iroquois Embassy in DC (WHAT, they don't have one?!?!) should have contacted the UK Embassy in DC to check on their papers...


Again:

"We would be pleased to welcome the Iroquois Nationals Lacrosse Team, but like all those seeking entry into the U.K., they must present a document that we recognize as valid to enable us to complete our immigration and other checks."

Case closed  


PS: the Wiki article references include the CIA, The EU and the UN.  Most likely the info is valid.  

Whoa, did Glenn Beck take over TK's account? More likely it's Limbaugh because he likes that word "obfuscate" quite a bit.

[Ponch ®]

Well guys, that's all nice and PC but it obfuscates the fact that the UK makes their own decisions on their Visas and a special interest group wants the US to lobby on their behalf.

All these guys had to do was to have a valid document that the UK recognizes. Seems somebody in their "Nation" didn't bother to keep on track with their papers validity... The Iroquois Embassy in DC (WHAT, they don't have one?!?!) should have contacted the UK Embassy in DC to check on their papers...


Again:

"We would be pleased to welcome the Iroquois Nationals Lacrosse Team, but like all those seeking entry into the U.K., they must present a document that we recognize as valid to enable us to complete our immigration and other checks."

Case closed  


PS: the Wiki article references include the CIA, The EU and the UN.  Most likely the info is valid.  

Whoa, did Glenn Beck take over TK's account? More likely it's Limbaugh because he likes that word "obfuscate" quite a bit.

Did Rachel Maddow take over YOUR account?  

[bull]

Well guys, that's all nice and PC but it obfuscates the fact that the UK makes their own decisions on their Visas and a special interest group wants the US to lobby on their behalf.

All these guys had to do was to have a valid document that the UK recognizes. Seems somebody in their "Nation" didn't bother to keep on track with their papers validity... The Iroquois Embassy in DC (WHAT, they don't have one?!?!) should have contacted the UK Embassy in DC to check on their papers...


Again:

"We would be pleased to welcome the Iroquois Nationals Lacrosse Team, but like all those seeking entry into the U.K., they must present a document that we recognize as valid to enable us to complete our immigration and other checks."

Case closed  


PS: the Wiki article references include the CIA, The EU and the UN.  Most likely the info is valid.  

Whoa, did Glenn Beck take over TK's account? More likely it's Limbaugh because he likes that word "obfuscate" quite a bit.

when did Rachel Maddow take over YOUR account? 

If this were the Mexican lacrosse team having trouble I'm sure we'd be on the opposite side again. I guess you guys just feel obligated to argue the opposite of me, whatever the issue.

[Ponch ®]

Well guys, that's all nice and PC but it obfuscates the fact that the UK makes their own decisions on their Visas and a special interest group wants the US to lobby on their behalf.

All these guys had to do was to have a valid document that the UK recognizes. Seems somebody in their "Nation" didn't bother to keep on track with their papers validity... The Iroquois Embassy in DC (WHAT, they don't have one?!?!) should have contacted the UK Embassy in DC to check on their papers...


Again:

"We would be pleased to welcome the Iroquois Nationals Lacrosse Team, but like all those seeking entry into the U.K., they must present a document that we recognize as valid to enable us to complete our immigration and other checks."

Case closed  


PS: the Wiki article references include the CIA, The EU and the UN.  Most likely the info is valid.  

Whoa, did Glenn Beck take over TK's account? More likely it's Limbaugh because he likes that word "obfuscate" quite a bit.

when did Rachel Maddow take over YOUR account?  

If this were the Mexican lacrosse team having trouble I'm sure we'd be on the opposite side again. I guess you guys just feel obligated to argue the opposite of me, whatever the issue.

nah man...in this instance I happen to think that all sides involved have valid arguments. If the Iroquois want to travel using their own passports then a) make sure they comply with international guidelines (do they have casinos? I'm sure they could throw some of that $ towards making some nice passports, instead of handwritten pamphlets) and b) expect some places to not recognize them. Otherwise, stop grandstanding and just get US passports. I know its a big deal for cultural identity and whatnot, but seriously, be practical. A US passport is not going to strip you of your culture and heritage. The UK has a right to let or not let in anyone they please based on what they consider proper documentation. Just like Mexico can't start issuing passports / travel permits to everyone that wants to come here and expect the US to say "oh ok...if Mexico says its ok, then I guess we gotta let you in".

Having said that,all sides also seem to be lacking common sense...

[bull]

What I don't understand though is why it's suddenly an issue now. Maybe the Iroquois lacrosse team hasn't had a team good enough to compete worldwide since 2001 but I don't think that's the case. Why are the Iroquois suddenly a potential threat to UK's national security now?

[Ponch ®]

What I don't understand though is why it's suddenly an issue now. Maybe the Iroquois lacrosse team hasn't had a team good enough to compete worldwide since 2001 but I don't think that's the case. Why are the Iroquois suddenly a potential threat to UK's national security now?

I don't think theyre considered a threat to the UK 's national security, but if they don't meet the UK's travel requirements, then the UK has a right to turn them down. Sure, we all know theyre just a lacrosse team and not a bunch of terrorists (and that's where the common sense angle comes into play), but in all fairness to the UK, they can't start making exceptions here and there. Just like we say about illegals - you have to go through the proper channels and respect the laws of the country you are going to.

[TK73]

Probably some changes in UK law disqualified the papers where they were valid previously... maybe similar to our own changes requiring a passport for Mexico/Canada travel where a DL/birth certificate were sufficient previously...

[Ponch ®]

Probably some changes in UK law disqualified the papers where they were valid previously... maybe similar to our own changes requiring a passport for Mexico/Canada travel where a DL/birth certificate were sufficient previously...

you mean they made it harder for undocumented undesirables to get into their country? How dare they?!

[TK73]

you mean they made it harder for undocumented undesirables to get into their country? How dare they?!

[tricky lugnuts]

"Also, it looks like the only security requirement the Iroquois passports are missing are RFID chips. The Iroquois passports are "just paper" and RFID chips are required per the "Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative" that went into effect last year:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/bob_ford/20100716_Bob_Ford__The_tangled_story_of_the_Iroquois_lacrosse_team.html

Got to love the those hemispherical travel initiatives! Better than trade agreements for trashing a nation's sovereignty. Thankfully our folks in Congress, ever intelligent, decided that we all wanted to join! Yay! RFID me!"

That's why it's a big deal all of a sudden!

[bull]

Probably some changes in UK law disqualified the papers where they were valid previously... maybe similar to our own changes requiring a passport for Mexico/Canada travel where a DL/birth certificate were sufficient previously...

you mean they made it harder for undocumented undesirables to get into their country? How dare they?!

Interesting you say that because the "too bad, so sad" routine you're using here is absent from your posts in those illegal immigrant threads.

[Ponch ®]

Probably some changes in UK law disqualified the papers where they were valid previously... maybe similar to our own changes requiring a passport for Mexico/Canada travel where a DL/birth certificate were sufficient previously...

you mean they made it harder for undocumented undesirables to get into their country? How dare they?!

Interesting you say that because the "too bad, so sad" routine you're using here is absent from your posts in those illegal immigrant threads.

and the "too bad, so sad" routine used in the illegal threads by others are absent here.

[TK73]

Yep, happens that way when people are emotionally attached to an issue... that's why we have laws...

[bull]

Probably some changes in UK law disqualified the papers where they were valid previously... maybe similar to our own changes requiring a passport for Mexico/Canada travel where a DL/birth certificate were sufficient previously...

you mean they made it harder for undocumented undesirables to get into their country? How dare they?!

Interesting you say that because the "too bad, so sad" routine you're using here is absent from your posts in those illegal immigrant threads.

and the "too bad, so sad" routine used in the illegal threads by others are absent here.

No, we're talking about separate issues. One being a group of people refusing to obey the rules of a country they've entered illegally; the other a group of people who are arguing against, yet complying with, the rules of a country they wish to enter legally. This issue is an argument surrounding one nation recognizing the sovereignty of another.

[bull]

Yep, happens that way when people are emotionally attached to an issue... that's why we have laws...

One the Indians don't like but are compliant with; the other ignored and taken advantage of.

[Ponch ®]

No, we're talking about separate issues. One being a group of people refusing to obey the rules of a country they've entered illegally; the other a group of people who are arguing against, yet complying with, the rules of a country they wish to enter legally. This issue is an argument surrounding one nation recognizing the sovereignty of another.

If they were complying with the rules, they wouldn't have been turned away. They were expecting the UK to change, ignore, or make an exception to their rules and accommodate them.

[bull]

No, we're talking about separate issues. One being a group of people refusing to obey the rules of a country they've entered illegally; the other a group of people who are arguing against, yet complying with, the rules of a country they wish to enter legally. This issue is an argument surrounding one nation recognizing the sovereignty of another.

If they were complying with the rules, they wouldn't have been turned away. They were expecting the UK to change, ignore, or make an exception to their rules and accommodate them.

And if the UK were complying with the fact that the Iroquois Nation is a sovereign nation, which it is, there wouldn't be an issue either.

[Ponch ®]

No, we're talking about separate issues. One being a group of people refusing to obey the rules of a country they've entered illegally; the other a group of people who are arguing against, yet complying with, the rules of a country they wish to enter legally. This issue is an argument surrounding one nation recognizing the sovereignty of another.

If they were complying with the rules, they wouldn't have been turned away. They were expecting the UK to change, ignore, or make an exception to their rules and accommodate them.

And if the UK were complying with the fact that the Iroquois Nation is a sovereign nation, which it is, there wouldn't be an issue either.

Except the UK doesn't have to recognize them as such if they don't want to. However, if the Iroquois wanted to go there, then they have to abide by their rules. If they were that adamant about their status as a recognized nation, they would have boycotted the tournament in the 1st place once the UK's stance became clear.

[bull]

The Iroquois are abiding by the UK rules. That doesn't mean they, or I, have to like the rules and can't speak out against them. You know this nothing more than a bunch of red tape BS semantics. Basically you're saying it's ok that Onata the Iroquois should be denied his license application at the DMV because he forgot to dot an "i" on his form and the snag behind the counter is on a power trip. I'm saying that's wrong. However, you say it's quite alright for Jose to license his $300 Taurus with no title even though he just ran across the border at 2 am three nights ago. This is where our arguments differ on this type of issue.

Oh well, Sammy Hagar is better than David Lee Roth.

[Ponch ®]

Oh well, Sammy Hagar is better than David Lee Roth.

Oh now you've gone and taken it to a whole new level. This aggression will not stand.

[bull]

Oh well, Sammy Hagar is better than David Lee Roth.

Oh now you've gone and taken it to a whole new level. This aggression will not stand.

Boy, you sure sidestepped that one.

[bakerhillpins]

Where is Brock? Someone should be selling popcorn. 

   

[Ponch ®]

Oh well, Sammy Hagar is better than David Lee Roth.

Oh now you've gone and taken it to a whole new level. This aggression will not stand.

Boy, you sure sidestepped that one.

No, I think both are equally unacceptable.

[Old Moparz]

.

[moparstuart]

.

[bull]

.

Tonto would have let them play.

[moparstuart]

.

Tonto would have let them play.

who knew tonto was a world class lacrosse champion 

[mauve66]

The Iroquois are abiding by the UK rules. That doesn't mean they, or I, have to like the rules and can't speak out against them. You know this nothing more than a bunch of red tape BS semantics. Basically you're saying it's ok that Onata the Iroquois should be denied his license application at the DMV because he forgot to dot an "i" on his form and the snag behind the counter is on a power trip. I'm saying that's wrong. However, you say it's quite alright for Jose to license his $300 Taurus with no title even though he just ran across the border at 2 am three nights ago. This is where our arguments differ on this type of issue.

Oh well, Sammy Hagar is better than David Lee Roth.

no they aren't abiding by the rules, the document changes went into effect last year so they have had at least 6 MONTHS to get their shit together and didn't bother cause "their special"
UK doesn't have to recognize them as a nation, just like we don't recognize all the changes in governments in the middle east and africa
like i said before a special group wanting special priviliges, maybe i should start lobbying that all Veterans get VETERANS DAY off with pay just cause i think we are more deserving than any other honest hard working american citizen

federal dollars pay for the roads that go through any "sovereign" indian nation, my federal tax dollars, if they want to be a sovereign nation then start taking care of your people with money from YOUR nation and not mine
were indians here first?? yes , did we invade and conquer?? yes  why do they deserve any more favors than any other nation that has been invaded and conquered anywhere else in the world??

[bull]

Take it easy, Mauve. Don't give yourself a stroke.

[mauve66]

naw man, i love a good DISCUSSION, besides, the doctors have it all wrong

you get heart attacks from keeping everything in and then FINALLY blowing up, due to the fat in your arteries all the time during you "quiet" times
if you keep your blood pressure high ALL the time your body is used to it and it keeps the fat cleaned out from all the high pressure
don't believe me??
go look at the inside of you house drain pipes and then look inside a fire hose................. all that pressure in the fire hose keeps it perfectly clean

[bull]

That's weird. My dad had a heart-attack and he pretty much always had steam coming out his ears.

[mauve66]

always 1 exception to ever rule............ i hope........... maybe i've just had good luck the first 40 years of my life.... my wife says my luck is running out.............