refreshing 440 and adding a cam some questions

[charger2fast4u]

i got a 71 440 HP2 engine i'm about to freshen up alittle. replace piston rings add a bigger cam i have a edelbrock RPM intake, MSD 6AL2  full ignition system TTI headers 750 proform carb.  don't want to spend to much money on it or i mise well go to a stroker. so i aint going fulll blown rebuild. my questions are what's a good brand piston rings to go with? what's the best cam setup to go with on this build with stock iron heads? while i'm redoing this what's a good aluminum high flow housing and water pump to go with? how are  the milodon pumps?

[charger2fast4u]

is this a good fluid damper to go with? http://store.440source.com/Fluid-damper-SFI-Certified-Chrome-New/productinfo/200-1023/

[Hot_Rodder]

I shall pass knowledge that was passed to me on this...

Cam, look into the Lunati VooDoo #60303 cam. It's been recommended to me for a 440 numerous times by folks who have built numerous big blocks..... Make sure you get the matching springs and such as well.

As for piston rings..... usually on a rebuild I'd replace the pistons and get a piston and piston ring kit.... Usually the cylinders have enough wear on them to need a bore clean up job... But as for brand... Total Seal is a good one, but I think is more on the high end...

As for aluminum water pump assemblies... I will recommend this: http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hopupa.html part #MRE6900KAH This is the one that I'm going to be running. Stay away from the 440 source housings and such, they don't flow for much of anything, and there are numerous housings out there that have small water pump inlets and such that really restrict water flow. If I remember right, the above assembly flows fine. Also, if I remember right, the Mopar Performance water pump housing does fine, and the above housing is similar to there's, but not as costly, lol.

As for the fluid damper, I've heard too many stories about folks having these, and theirs leaking so, I've decided to go with something a little different, but I'm not at that point now so I've not made my mind up.

The 750 will do fine for now, not sure how it's gonna do on the upper end of things and such, but for cruising and what have ya, it'll do fine. I'm gonna build up this 440 I have sitting around a lil, and am going to be using a Holley 850 cfm double pumper for now... I'd like to run an efi for better drive ability...

On a side note, you may want to consider port matching your stock heads to the gaskets, will help give you a little more flow, and pick up a lil more power... But you can quickly spend a lot of money on the factory heads so.... Just make sure they're find and good to go.

Hope this helps out some, enjoy, and have fun.

[charger2fast4u]

I shall pass knowledge that was passed to me on this...

Cam, look into the Lunati VooDoo #60303 cam. It's been recommended to me for a 440 numerous times by folks who have built numerous big blocks..... Make sure you get the matching springs and such as well.

As for piston rings..... usually on a rebuild I'd replace the pistons and get a piston and piston ring kit.... Usually the cylinders have enough wear on them to need a bore clean up job... But as for brand... Total Seal is a good one, but I think is more on the high end...

As for aluminum water pump assemblies... I will recommend this: http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hopupa.html part #MRE6900KAH This is the one that I'm going to be running. Stay away from the 440 source housings and such, they don't flow for much of anything, and there are numerous housings out there that have small water pump inlets and such that really restrict water flow. If I remember right, the above assembly flows fine. Also, if I remember right, the Mopar Performance water pump housing does fine, and the above housing is similar to there's, but not as costly, lol.

As for the fluid damper, I've heard too many stories about folks having these, and theirs leaking so, I've decided to go with something a little different, but I'm not at that point now so I've not made my mind up.

The 750 will do fine for now, not sure how it's gonna do on the upper end of things and such, but for cruising and what have ya, it'll do fine. I'm gonna build up this 440 I have sitting around a lil, and am going to be using a Holley 850 cfm double pumper for now... I'd like to run an efi for better drive ability...

On a side note, you may want to consider port matching your stock heads to the gaskets, will help give you a little more flow, and pick up a lil more power... But you can quickly spend a lot of money on the factory heads so.... Just make sure they're find and good to go.

Hope this helps out some, enjoy, and have fun.

i'm looking for a cam setup that will work with my stock iron heads springs lifters and pushrods if possible. and stay with the stock pistons just rering them like i said if i'm going to do a full rebuild and be replacing alot of parts i mise well just build a stroker. i just want to make a reliable motor with the parts i listed that will be going on it and find out the biggest cam i can put in it without swapping springs and what not. i was thinking it would be good to replace the lifters with the cam though so they wear evenly. the 750 carb should be plenty for this build as it's not much more then just bolt on parts. which pump and housing are you going with? i seen 3 aluminum one's that they list on there that they sell with different prices.

[b5blue]

New lifters are a must for a new cam as is matching valve springs to prevent coil binding. A mechanic friend of mine showed a simple but very dramatic point on the value of fresh springs.....he held out a new one in one hand and a old used in the other and just let them drop, the new one bounced all over and the old one seemed dead in comparison. Cylinder wall condition dictates re-ringing or not. Break down the engine and check the cylinders very carefully for taper and out of round. Pay close attention to the ring ridge at the top of the cylinders where the top ring stops, if it's fairly deep there you may not want to just re ring it as by the time you ream and hone the piston is so loose you will not have much time before it is puffing and loosing power. I get what your trying to do and I have helped a few guys do it with good results but the condition of the block and crank were pretty nice. I used the Mopar "Resto" cam and though not very high tech it is a proven good all round cam for a street driver. Good luck! 

[RD]

New lifters are a must for a new cam as is matching valve springs to prevent coil binding. A mechanic friend of mine showed a simple but very dramatic point on the value of fresh springs.....he held out a new one in one hand and a old used in the other and just let them drop, the new one bounced all over and the old one seemed dead in comparison.

good comparison, but as a cheaper alternative, just take your springs to a machine shop and have them test them to ensure they will still produce the amount of spring pressure you will require based upon your build. 

now... with that being said, if you purchase a different camshaft, make sure (if you do not plan on replacing  your springs) that the OE springs are a match to your 'new' camshaft specifications.  some camshafts require springs that will perform based upon the 'new' cam's spring pressure and lift spec's

[charger2fast4u]

thanks for the replys. i was looking at this comp cam and lifter setup    http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp-Cams/249/CL21-225-4/10002/-1?parentProductId=746624   would this be a good choice? or is it to big to run the stock rockers?

[Hot_Rodder]

If you are wanting to reuse your factory springs, then have them checked out like mentioned above. Once you get the results, go from there. Generally a single spring setup aren't all that expensive, and being new will be matched to which ever cam you'll end up with. As for cam selection with factory springs, I'd prefer not to spec one out because I don't know what your springs are rated for nor what they can still take.
I'd imagine something like this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-60302LK/ Your springs could handle... Though, this is a 3 bolt cam, I think it might come in a one bolt though.
As for the rering, check your block and make sure the cylinders are in good enough shape to do a rering and not need a bore job... Other wise, you will pretty much be wasting your money which you don't want to do...

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/hopupa.html  part #MRE6900KAH

[charger2fast4u]

if i go with the comp cams cam i posted i would buy new springs to match it.  only thing is if i go with this cam lifter and spring kit would i need new pushrods to? what about valves valve locks valve seals? would the stock rocker arms still be able to be used? basically i don't want to rebuild the whole head assembly just to be able to run a bigger cam. or i mise well go with aluminum heads since i'll be spending alot on parts for stock iron heads. they list the comp cam as a single bolt setup on jegs but the same cam is on 440 source and says they have it in 3 bolt style. which is the better one to go with single or 3 bolt? i don't know much when it comes to cam setups. the water pumps on mancini whats the difference from the one you listed and the one beside it MRE6900KHV for $30 less?

[Hot_Rodder]

Hmmm... I'll reply as I can, lol.
-I do not think you would need new pushrods with this cam and such. I ran factory pushrods with the Mopar 509 cam in my old 440 without a problem. Length wise unless you're milling the heads/block, there want be a difference. Just make sure that your pushrods aren't bent.
-Valve locks, unless you go to a 10* retainer, then your factory locks (keepers) should be fine.
-Valves, unless you want to replace your current valves (going to a bigger size, I wouldn't worry with it.
-Valve seals, replace them, makes since, if you're gonna be right there at them, replace them....
-Stock rocker arms should be fine, but it would be a good idea to go with the factory style arms that are out on the market because they have a little more meat where needed...
-As for single bolt versus 3 bolt... On a motor like this, I don't think it matters really. But if you do go with a 3 bolt ca, you'll have to buy a 3 bolt timing chain assembly or gear setup (which ever you want, probably chain), and the bolts (I'm going with a 3 bolt and bought the ARP 3 cam bolt kit). If you stick with the single bolt, which is fine, use a little thread locking compound on the bolt to keep it in place and you should be more than good to go.
-As for the water pumps, looks like the difference is the water necks... The one I posted has a billet aluminum water neck, and the one you're asking about has a chrome steel water neck. Either will be fine. I posted the one that I'm going to be using, myself personally, if I'm going to be running an aluminum water pump assembly, I'd rather go ahead and run an aluminum water neck too... But that's just me, lol.

Hope this helps some, I'm assuming that you'll end up getting a Comp Cams K kit? I know it's costly, but it comes with the cam, lifters, timing chain, ect.
Here's a summing racing link for reference: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K21-225-4/ As you can see, it comes with everything, lol. It's just an idea... If you decide this, I'd call and make sure of this stuff:
A: How many grooves are on the locks....
B: Will the valve spring diameter work on factory heads without modification (I can't remember off the top of my head... Maybe someone here will chime in on this)
C: What degree are the locks and retainers, 7* or 10*

Then again, you can order the came and lifter kit and get a set of springs that will work on your heads (assuming that if the ones in the kit want). Also, maybe you can get away with reusing your locks and retainers.... Save a couple dollars... Anyway, up to you on how you want to go about everything. And one more thing, I'd call around to some places, Summit and Jegs isn't always the lowest price... Place down in Fl beat Summit and Jegs at all their prices, lol. I'd have to look up the contact info though... He was going to do a solid roller cam and such for a build that I can't do anymore, sadly.

[firefighter3931]

How much stall speed will you be running ? Rear end gearing and tire diameter ?

The xe284 is a fairly healthy cam....it needs lots of stall and gear to work effectively. 


Ron

[charger2fast4u]

it will be ran with a keisler 5 speed and most likely 3.55 gears. not sure what tires i'll be going with yet i'm thinking 17'' front 18'' rear

[Hot_Rodder]

You would be giving wheel dia, need to know the tire diameter... If you're gonna be running a 5 speed, why not go with a taller gear like a 3.91? You'll have the o.d. for it so...

[charger2fast4u]

i know i only listed the rim dia i haven't decided what size tires to go with yet. i was thinking somewhere around a 45 or so sidewall on them. i like the 3.55 gearing i have in it only gear i don't have much pulling power in is 5th and with a motor making alittle more then what i have now will fix that anything over 3.55 is to much inmo. first and second would be useless and i'd loose alot of highway speed and gas milage

[firefighter3931]

it will be ran with a keisler 5 speed and most likely 3.55 gears. not sure what tires i'll be going with yet i'm thinking 17'' front 18'' rear

Based on the gearing and the fact that it's a std trans the cam I would use is an XE274H along with a set of #911 valvesprings. 


Ron

[charger2fast4u]

what would i need to do to the engine to work with the xe284 and make more power then the xe274? would going .030 over bore on the block help at all? i'm debating cleaning up the block while it's torn down anyways. how does gearing come into play with cam selection? i'm still learning as i go cams are one thing i haven't gotten into yet. if i went with the xe284 what  valvesprings would be the best choice to go with? there won't be any problems using stock rockers and valve to piston clearance as long as i dont have the heads and block decked right?

[b5blue]

New pistons let you change compression and give a tighter build that will last many times longer. Listen to Ron's advise there are many things that effect why to use what, you do not just go: hey I like the numbers for this cam! Get a Mopar Performance Big Block Book and read it first! 

[firefighter3931]

New pistons let you change compression and give a tighter build that will last many times longer. Listen to Ron's advise there are many things that effect why to use what, you do not just go: hey I like the numbers for this cam! Get a Mopar Performance Big Block Book and read it first! 

Yep....the whole combination needs to be matched to work well 

what would i need to do to the engine to work with the xe284 and make more power then the xe274? would going .030 over bore on the block help at all? i'm debating cleaning up the block while it's torn down anyways. how does gearing come into play with cam selection? i'm still learning as i go cams are one thing i haven't gotten into yet. if i went with the xe284 what  valvesprings would be the best choice to go with? there won't be any problems using stock rockers and valve to piston clearance as long as i dont have the heads and block decked right?

If you want to run that xe284 cam you need more compression or it will be real soft down low. You don't want or need sloppy throttle response and poor street manners, do you ? 

A 71 440 is going to have 9:1 compression so don't make the most common mistake.....over camming 


Just my  fwiw


Ron

[charger2fast4u]

thanks for the help what would be a more suitable compression ratio for that cam? is 10.1 a good match for it? what's the stock iron heads good to in compression while being reliable? anyone know whats a good book to have for rebuilding 440's i seen alot of different one's but wanted to see whats the best one's to go with.

[b5blue]

Mopar Performance

[1Bad70Charger]

You live once and life just goes by to darn fast, so if you can spend the extra $1500 go with the Eddy Alum RPM heads, as this will REALLY wake up the car like there is no tomorrow, and will allow you to run a much more aggressive higher lift cam (that you can't run with the iron stockers) allowing you to take advantage of the extra air flow of the Eddy RPM heads (which simply can't be beat for making max power out of your freshly rebuilt 440 engine).


I mean for $1,500 (for the Eddy Heads) and with the higher lift cam you can run will allow you to step up to make optimal power for your new rebuilt 440, and you are probably looking at an easy extra 70 to 80 HP, and for $1,500, that's alot of BANG for your Buck. I would also build a 10:5 to 1 engine for max power with the Eddy alum heads which should be no problem at all with 93 octane.

That my plan anyways for rebuilding my 440 and my  .  Best of luck to you in your rebuild!  

[charger2fast4u]

the options are endless. i'm looking for a pretty much stock rebuild for now on this engine atleast. with just upgraded ignition, intake, exhaust, bigger cam and more compression. i'm thinking i might need to get the block bored it has a little wear ring inside the top of the piston stroke. when it go's to the shop should i see about decking the top or anything? i see people doing it to raise compression. should i stay away from that and just use pistons? i'd say 10.1 is the most comp you would want to run with stock iron heads for reliability?

[Hot_Rodder]

I'm not going to suggest a particular piston other than one with a tight quench style piston. Being that the piston sits down int he bore (below 0 deck @ tdc) and the stock heads have such a big combustion chamber, you're gonna find it a little difficult to make the compression you want without a dome piston or machine work to the heads and/or block. But for a reference:
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/test/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=29 Quench dome style piston face
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/test/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=30 Flat top piston
These are for reference, I'm not saying to run these for sure... But should give you an idea.

[BSB67]

"with just upgraded ignition, intake, exhaust, bigger cam and more compression. i'm thinking i might need to get the block bored it has a little wear ring inside the top of the piston stroke. when it go's to the shop should i see about decking the top or anything?"

Maybe you don't realize, but this is like 3/4 of the way to doing everything

[Hot_Rodder]

"with just upgraded ignition, intake, exhaust, bigger cam and more compression. i'm thinking i might need to get the block bored it has a little wear ring inside the top of the piston stroke. when it go's to the shop should i see about decking the top or anything?"

Maybe you don't realize, but this is like 3/4 of the way to doing everything

Yeah, not much else to do after all this.

[1Bad70Charger]

"with just upgraded ignition, intake, exhaust, bigger cam and more compression. i'm thinking i might need to get the block bored it has a little wear ring inside the top of the piston stroke. when it go's to the shop should i see about decking the top or anything?"

Maybe you don't realize, but this is like 3/4 of the way to doing everything

Yeah, not much else to do after all this.

Except adding some Eddy 84 cc alum Heads! 

[Hot_Rodder]

"with just upgraded ignition, intake, exhaust, bigger cam and more compression. i'm thinking i might need to get the block bored it has a little wear ring inside the top of the piston stroke. when it go's to the shop should i see about decking the top or anything?"

Maybe you don't realize, but this is like 3/4 of the way to doing everything

Yeah, not much else to do after all this.

Except adding some Eddy 84 cc alum Heads! 

Yeah maybe new freeze plugs and oil pump too... Then the bearings, other than that, what would still be left? Carb for one, but what else? Got a new motor... Anyway, as said, get the compression to around 10:1, maybe 10.5:1, get a cam that is matched up with the rest of your combo. Look into new heads, you can throw a ton of money into factory heads and still fall just short of new heads... But if dead set on running the factory heads and not wanting to spend much money, you'll have to get a set of matched springs to which ever cam you end up running, make sure they are installed to the manufactures spec's correctly, also replace the valve seals while you're at it... Make sure the valve guides aren't worn out, if they are then.... See previous statement about new heads... If you have to get into replacing valve guides and such, you will find out just how quickly the factory head costs can add up. As for aftermarket heads, The Eddy RPM's are nice, I've got a set of Stealth heads that I had Modern Cylinder heads rework, alot... Anyway, the only bad part that I've heard about the Stealth heads, is the keepers/retainers.... Be nice if you could get the heads with out springs, retainers, keepers... Pretty much a bare head but with valves... Oh well.

[b5blue]

You're in the endless loop now! Here is my  Compression is really related to octane, to run 10.5 to one you need to take out timing or switch to aluminum heads. (As they handle heat differently) If you detune you loose power, if you use aluminum heads you loose money. The cat piss fuel we have today needs a computer and injectors to run the stuff correctly. I really advise before you buy one part you get a Mopar Performance B/RB "how to book" and read it. It is real easy to mismatch components and not ever be happy for what you spent. The book will map out a path to what you want for the best money. Everyone here will help tweak that path even better. 

[charger2fast4u]

Yeah maybe new freeze plugs and oil pump too... Then the bearings, other than that, what would still be left? Carb for one, but what else? Got a new motor... Anyway, as said, get the compression to around 10:1, maybe 10.5:1, get a cam that is matched up with the rest of your combo. Look into new heads, you can throw a ton of money into factory heads and still fall just short of new heads... But if dead set on running the factory heads and not wanting to spend much money, you'll have to get a set of matched springs to which ever cam you end up running, make sure they are installed to the manufactures spec's correctly, also replace the valve seals while you're at it... Make sure the valve guides aren't worn out, if they are then.... See previous statement about new heads... If you have to get into replacing valve guides and such, you will find out just how quickly the factory head costs can add up. As for aftermarket heads, The Eddy RPM's are nice, I've got a set of Stealth heads that I had Modern Cylinder heads rework, alot... Anyway, the only bad part that I've heard about the Stealth heads, is the keepers/retainers.... Be nice if you could get the heads with out springs, retainers, keepers... Pretty much a bare head but with valves... Oh well.
[/quote]


i already have a proform 750 carb edelbrock RPM intake MSD 6al2 ignition system with dist and full tti 3'' x pipe exhaust i'm throwing on this motor. so i figured i was going to go with 10.1 or so and thought a high lift cam would be nice that's how i started looking at the XE284H but you have some good points here. i'd say i'll be throwing $600 at the least after refreshing the heads with springs seals ect.. to get these in reliable shape. i like the line of indy cylinder heads. i was planning on using them on the stroker bluild when i get to it. i was looking at the indy EZ1 heads     http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/indyezheads1.html    what do you's think of them with the rest of the build?