The Official Oil Spill Thread....

[Ponch ®]

We already broached the subject in another thread...but this issue deserves its own thread where can talk it out.

I'll start where we left off:

Yeah but nobody dumps 20 million barrels of oil into US waters without getting criminally investigated.  

IMHO it's political spin to praise that decision, and it's political spin to criticize it.

Honestly, I don't get that. How do you get criminally investigated for something that can be considered an accident or engineering failure? Seems like there's some allegation of violations to some laws, but unless those violations directly led to the spill, I don't see how it's a 'criminal' situation. To use a car analogy: I got in a car accident a few months ago - I didn't have a front license plate (which is illegal), but that doesn't mean that's what caused the crash and I'm at fault. If it's because of the damage that the spill is causing...well, that's like the city going after me for dumping oil and antifreeze onto the street after the accident.

Sometimes I think America is turning into one of those countries where every time sometime happens, the public isn't satisfied unless there is a scapegoat put in jail. We can't seem to accept that sometimes shit just happens.

[elacruze]

Sometimes I think America is turning into one of those countries where every time sometime happens, the public isn't satisfied unless there is a scapegoat put in jail. We can't seem to accept that sometimes shit just happens. 

John Q. Public is stupid. He believes that people and technology which are beyond his grasp must be perfect. The only entity entitled to imperfection is himself.

[Todd Wilson]

Well we took over the car companies.............got ahold of the health care industry....................now its time to grab ahold of the oil companies............



Todd

[RECHRGD]

I'm not into conspiracy theories. However it does seem odd to me how quickly this happened after Obama OK'd more offshore drilling, in turn pissing off the eco-terrorist types.  

[chargergirl]

My issue is that the "clean up", in the eco sensitive areas, mandates action to keep negative impact at a minimum. Therefore one should keep as much oil off the estuaries as possible. That is the inaction that I am speaking of. The beaches will heal...it will be disgusting, those globs of oil, however they can be removed without excessive damage.  The oil companies have been drilling in our gulf for years...no major accidents. I believe there is more to the story than simply, "The failsafes failed". Nothing out there is built that way. There are 4 failsafes cause one might fail. The explosion was excessive and is there a hole blown in the helicopter pad? Sure looked like it. I am not blaming the oil company. I simply want the coastline protected where it will impact the worst. Funny how there is no investigation going on about the tar balls that showed up on the keys beaches...they didn't belong to BP...so who do they belong to? What don't we know?

[tricky lugnuts]

Per the investigation, it seems like one thing BP could get dinged on is ignoring the EPA order to use less toxic dispersants.

Never thought about the eco-terrorism possibility before.

[hemi68charger]

Per the investigation, it seems like one thing BP could get dinged on is ignoring the EPA order to use less toxic dispersants.

Never thought about the eco-terrorism possibility before.

Oh yeah,, The Brits are out to get us...........  They still haven't gotten over the fact that our gorilla-warfare tactics of 1776 kicked their hineys......  Or, is that arse... 

[Beer]

What the investigation will likely show is a chain of events that had 3-6 items that if any one did not happen the event would not have happened.

What is particulary impressive in my opinion is the only ones lost were on the drill floor or in the crane.  EVERYONE ELSE got off.  This is a testiment to the safety culture the oilfield has evolved to.

I would speculate the cementers, BP drilling engineer/Company men, Transocean Drill crew, all had a hand in it, however if one or more of them were on their game, the mishap would have been nothing more than a kick that could have been controlled easily..

As a offshore oil field worker, BP has the reputation for erring to the side of safety, in fact imposing overly strict Safety policies on the rigs they contract.

As a former Transocean employee, I will say that BOP testing was never taken lightly and I am not aware of ANY falsifying any test or documentation.  In fact if the BOP test failed (witnessed and test charts held by the client i.e. BP) the BOP would be pulled and the rig would go on what is called "Down time" (client would not be paying the full day rate). A "SWAT" team would come out and expiedite repairs to the BOP, and then the BOP would be lowered again, once latched up the rig would go back on day rate. As for failsafes not working, there was never a requirement to test the BOP functions using the ROV (although I bet there will be following this event). 

I think (this is my speculation and only that) the drill crew had the sense to close the well in using the BOP, and when they did, a tool joint (the threaded section of the connection of the drillpipe) was were the rams closed.  The rams can shear the drill pipe...but not if the tooljoint is there...it is much thicker...now picture the rams closed against the tooljoint, but the 5000psi plus rushing past the opening...soon the rams get washed out...then a few days later send the ROV to close em...there is nothing left to close, and people wonder why the ROV functions did not work.

So who's fault is it?   Fact is BP is the leasee, and responsible for their well.  All their fault...not likely. But they will have to pay the cost for cleanup.  The lawyers will sort out the rest, new rules will be put in place, new focus into alternate energy solutions etc...






 

[John_Kunkel]

Honestly, I don't get that. How do you get criminally investigated for something that can be considered an accident or engineering failure?

What if an in-depth investigation of the chain of events shows that BP and Transocean supervisors made critical decisions in favor of production schedules and against safety considerations?

[Ponch ®]

Honestly, I don't get that. How do you get criminally investigated for something that can be considered an accident or engineering failure?

What if an in-depth investigation of the chain of events shows that BP and Transocean supervisors made critical decisions in favor of production schedules and against safety considerations?

At that point you go ahead and deem it a criminal investigation.  But until then, it should just be an in depth investigation. I have no particular interest in BP, but seems to me like when you start calling it a criminal investigation from the get go, you're pretty much already sealing its fate in the court of public opinion before all the facts are out.

[Mike DC]

Honestly, I don't get that. How do you get criminally investigated for something that can be considered an accident or engineering failure? Seems like there's some allegation of violations to some laws, but unless those violations directly led to the spill, I don't see how it's a 'criminal' situation. To use a car analogy: I got in a car accident a few months ago - I didn't have a front license plate (which is illegal), but that doesn't mean that's what caused the crash and I'm at fault. If it's because of the damage that the spill is causing...well, that's like the city going after me for dumping oil and antifreeze onto the street after the accident.

I'm not saying anybody spilling 20 million barrels of oil will get charged with a crime & have a court battle over it.  I'm just saying that any incident spilling those kinds of numbers will get investigated for possible criminal & civil issues. 

Heck, you probably couldn's spill 3 million barrels without the incident getting criminally investigated in some measure.  Not 3 million barrels spilled right off a populated US shoreline.

What the investigation will likely show is a chain of events that had 3-6 items that if any one did not happen the event would not have happened.

I agree.  Something as complex as oil drilling always has multiple redundancies built into things. Maybe there aren't enough redundancies in retrospect, but it's usually multiple things that caused the incident in the news.

It's like a modern airliner crash - people always want a smoking gun thing to hold up and point to, but the truth usually isn't that simple.  Almost any single-event failure that is capable of downing the whole aircraft has been backed up with some kind of redundancy measure a long time ago.

[bull]

What I don't understand is why all these government and oil company experts sat on their brains, pointed fingers and talked about the spill for over a month before ever making a concerted effort to stop it.

There's already a criminal investigation taking place: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6430AR20100601

[Rolling_Thunder]

I'm not into conspiracy theories. However it does seem odd to me how quickly this happened after Obama OK'd more offshore drilling, in turn pissing off the eco-terrorist types.  

And that's why the GOP is getting a TON of votes for everything now...   senate, congress....     

[RallyeMike]

I'm not into conspiracy theories. However it does seem odd to me how quickly this happened after Obama OK'd more offshore drilling, in turn pissing off the eco-terrorist types. 

And that's why the GOP is getting a TON of votes for everything now...   senate, congress....     

Eco-terrorists voting Republican?   

[Mike DC]

   
Conspiracy theories are another thing that was unavoidable in this situation.  A spill this big, this close to a govt ruling on the issue. 


I find it amusing that both sides of the political aisle have ideas that it was a conspiracy to benefit the other side. 

 

[tricky lugnuts]

Kind of funny:

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2010m6d2-Video-Jon-Stewart-makes-fun-of-BP-President-Obama-for-failed-Gulf-oil-spill-efforts

[Old Moparz]

It sounds wrong calling it a spill, the word "spill" almost removes the harshness of the situation. Milk is spilled, oil gushing out of an underwater well is a catastrophe. The "spill" has been going on for so long, it has people pretty angry & makes them forget the fact that 11 people died. When the 29 coal miners died recently, it launched a criminal investigation of the company that owns the mine, Massey. It should be no different with BP if safety violations caused the explosion that killed 11 people.

[Ponch ®]

It sounds wrong calling it a spill, the word "spill" almost removes the harshness of the situation. Milk is spilled, oil gushing out of an underwater well is a catastrophe. The "spill" has been going on for so long, it has people pretty angry & makes them forget the fact that 11 people died. When the 29 coal miners died recently, it launched a criminal investigation of the company that owns the mine, Massey. It should be no different with BP if safety violations caused the explosion that killed 11 people.

I did more thinking about this and John Kunkel's comment about a how the investigation may uncover a "chain of events" that led to the disaster.

It occurred to me that both of the Space Shuttle disasters were eventually attributed to poor management decisions. With the Challenger, managers ignored several warnings about the parts that failed. With Columbia, they knew the ship was damaged but NASA managers refused to let the astronauts go out and inspect it.

In both cases safety was overlooked for whatever reasons (safety, money, time, etc) and lives were also lost. There were all sorts of official investigations and congressional committees, but to my knowledge there was never a criminal investigation.

So what's the difference? Is it because w the oil spill it's easier to satisfy the public's desire to see heads roll when it's an evil, dirty, oil company?

[bull]

If you've seen the pictures of the pipe there's a flange just below the break. Seems like it would have been fairly easy (for BP) to make a fitting with a valve attached to it, remove the broken pipe at the flange and install the cap onto the flange with the valve open. Once it's in place, close the valve.

[Khyron]

If you've seen the pictures of the pipe there's a flange just below the break. Seems like it would have been fairly easy (for BP) to make a fitting with a valve attached to it, remove the broken pipe at the flange and install the cap onto the flange with the valve open. Once it's in place, close the valve.

stop finding simple solutions!

[PocketThunder]

Drilling in ANWR seems like a better idea right about now.   





You could get alota oil in a safer, more controlled environment.  (i just wanted to use alota in a sentence) 

[bull]

Drilling in ANWR seems like a better idea right about now.   





You could get alota oil in a safer, more controlled environment.  (i just wanted to use alota in a sentence) 

Right. Seems to me it'd be a lot easier to work on leaks on the surface of the planet than 5,000 feet under water.

[Old Moparz]

(i just wanted to use alota in a sentence) 

[Mike DC]

 
I don't mind a criminal investigation into the BP spill. 


If NASA had been a private for-profit organization there might have been a criminal investigation into the Challenger incident.  Probably not a "criminal" investigation initially, but the c-word might have gotten involved once they discovered it was a management decision that caused the shuttle explosion.  There was still a lot of investigating to do between the discovery of the O-ring problem and how NASA actually came to the decision to launch.

With the BP spill they are getting far enough into the process to know a fair amount about what specific mechanical processes failed.  If maybe not final confirmations of the problems, they at least have strong suspicions by now.  The next logical step is to learn about what role the human error decisions played.

[Ponch ®]