once again california wants to tell other states what to do

[69DodgeCharger]

But you can't miss the point that we can't start chipping away at some of the most sacred values and ideals (citizenship, equality, INALIENABLE RIGHTS) that we hold as Americans


That Sentence only applies to legal American citizens Ponch.

[RECHRGD]

I wonder how many of our tax dollars help fund this little organization?   http://www.calstatela.edu/orgs/mecha/planphilmecha.htm

[tricky lugnuts]

Per Ponch's concern that he is more likely to be "humiliatingly" questioned by police about his legal status since he is Latino, albeit a legal citizen of the United States... The litmus test police use will probably be, or at least should be, something simple and fairly discreet, like: What is your Social Security number? [Granted, that's not something our SS numbers were designed for...] Or, where were you born?

While Ponch clearly speaks English, likely has a SS number, and possibly a valid driver's license - all of which are likely to be major immediate indicators that he is in fact a legal citizen - his concern in this regard is fair...

But I tend to believe that if you get arrested or seriously questioned for any sort of crime, that information is likely something that even any blue-eyed blonde-haired person, a Rockefeller or not, would also be asked for, or simple information that could be gleaned from swiping a driver's license. If police stop you for questioning their first goal is generally to find out who you are. Through that process, it probably becomes rather apparent rather quickly if a person is or is not a legal citizen...

Not that the police can't abuse their powers...

But to belabor his point, even honkies with dark hair and scruffy faces like myself get tans... That is to say, don't think nobody has ever said to me, "Man, you look like a Mexican!" A policeman could easily make the same mistake...possibly humiliating me.

Again, however, let's face it, most of these people are not international spies or masters of disguise who speak 14 languages...

I agree the whole thing is a damn mess that would have been best solved by not letting an estimated 12 million people to infiltrate and set up life within in your borders in the first place... But alas...

[twodko]

The constitution and all its "protections" apply to legal and/or naturalized US citizens only. I welcome anyone who wishes to immigrate to the United States but do so legally according to our laws. Do not sponge off my country, do not bleed our social services dry, do not bleed our medical services dry and do not wave some other flag in protest of your "right" to be here.

Tom

[Ponch ®]

All I'm going to say is the time is now to stop.. We can panhandle this situaiton until we're blue in the face. Liberalists are going to cry foul every time the police question anyone. One must have very thin skin to be offended about being asked if one's legal or not. The sad reality of it is that most, easily 90%, of illegals are of Hispanic origin. If you think anarchy is going to happen because States enforce Federal Law (and who's to say AZ didn't consult with the US Attorney General), then you have another thing coming if 11 million more illegals show up on our door steps... California couldn't change any laws now even if it wanted to... There's too much hispanic influence.. It's like zoning in Houston, it'll never happen........ The city can go to hell and look like dodo, but noone's going to care because everyone wants their selfish convenience of being able to park their cars and trucks in their front yards and house up to 3 families per one house ( yes, it happens,,, I lived here, see it, breath it and unfortunately, moved from it)........

We can go back - n - forth until we're blue in the face.............. From my point of view, it has to stop... Period......... If it means stepping out of the box to do it, so be it....... I applaud AZ in their "we're not out to make friends" approach and if it offends you to enforce law, Sorry.............   Come up with a better plan.............  No one has yet................

It's not about being thick skinned about being asked if im legal or not. I can deal with that. But its a matter of principle. What this is doing is essentially singling out a group of people - legal or not - for persecution.  Should we go after all white people because a lot of these extremist/fundamentalist/neo nazi militias like the Hutaree are white?  Like I said, shoot the illegals at the border if you want to keep them out. But don't mess with MY rights as an American just because I happened to be born looking a certain way.

I'm pretty sure the Arizona does not allow the simple "your papers, please" police action unless an individual has already been lawfully stopped for questioning as being a suspect involved in some other, non-immigration related criminal activity - that is, if the police pull you over for suspected drunk driving and THEN have reason to believe you may not be a legal citizen, then they can ask to see proof that you are a citizen. I don't think the new law allows police in Arizona to just patrol the streets asking suspected foreigners for their papers.

Yes, but like I said earlier, how do you determine who may or may not be a legal citizen in the first place? That they don't speak English? The way they're dressed? Just exactly how?

You guys who keep repeating "the Constitution only applies to Americans and people who are here legally" are completely missing the point. For the sake of argument, I don't care about the illegals or what happens to them. What about all the Americans (like me) who are susceptible to being questioned and asked about our legal status? I didn't break any laws...why should I be treated as a 2nd class citizen? If you don't have to prove you're legal, why should I? Does the Constitution apply less to me than it does to you just because I'm hispanic? 

[RD]

The illegal aliens and their sympathizers do not have a foot to stand on when you look specifically at the law of the federal government and the state of Arizona.  PERIOD.  That is the law,  you don't like it, change it.  Until then, stfu and quit your damn whining.  If you are an illegal, you do NOT have the right to free speech and free assembly.  You do not have fourth amendment rights, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHTS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.

I would not be so pissed about this if the reactions of the illegals were nothing but a spit in my face and talk about how good Mexico and being a Mexican is and blah blah blah.  If its so fricken good, get the hell out of my country and go back to your shangri-la.

All illegal aliens are criminals, period.  I dont care what anyone says, a criminal is a criminal. If you are a woman with children and you enter my country illegally so that we will pay for your children's education; school breakfast and lunches; your healthcare; and to qualify for social services, then I applaud your efforts BUT YOU ARE STILL A CRIMINAL LEECHING OF THE WORK OF CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.  All illegals go to your country of origin.  If you want to live here, do it the right way. If you dont like your country, go make it better.

Sorry Ponch, and all those who think that illegal immigration is acceptable behavior and should be rewarded instead of punished, but this whole argument is BS and shouldnt even have taken place.  Illegals should never be here in the first place.

Below is a map of North America, just so we know this geography lesson.  If you have an illegal alien as a friend, print this out and give it to him.  If they have an issue with it, I will give you my address and they can come and discuss it with me.

[69DodgeCharger]

It's not about being thick skinned about being asked if im legal or not. I can deal with that. But its a matter of principle. What this is doing is essentially singling out a group of people - legal or not - for persecution.  Should we go after all white people because a lot of these extremist/fundamentalist/neo nazi militias like the Hutaree are white?  Like I said, shoot the illegals at the border if you want to keep them out. But don't mess with MY rights as an American just because I happened to be born looking a certain way.


And that principle is? Does your inconvenience over the possibility of being questioned about your status outweigh the common good? (see DUI checkpoints, employment drug screens, etc.) No it does not. As far as the extremist groups you mentioned if they fit the profile and generate a "reasonable suspicion" of being a danger to the greater good or public in general then yes we should watch and or go after them.

You guys who keep repeating "the Constitution only applies to Americans and people who are here legally" are completely missing the point. For the sake of argument, I don't care about the illegals or what happens to them. What about all the Americans (like me) who are susceptible to being questioned and asked about our legal status? I didn't break any laws...why should I be treated as a 2nd class citizen? If you don't have to prove you're legal, why should I? Does the Constitution apply less to me than it does to you just because I'm hispanic?

We keep repeating that the Constitution only applies to Legal, and or naturalized American citizens because that is the stone cold fact of the matter. There is no gray area. In fact it clearly illustrates that we do indeed "get the point" As far as your argument about being susceptible to being questioned and asked about your legal status it's not an issue if you haven't committed any crime to bring you into contact with Law Enforcement. Unless you generate reasonable suspicion. (can't speak English, no ID, no legal residence, documentation/vehicles that belong to other people etc.) As far as having to prove you are legal it happens every single time you have contact with the police for any reason. In fact asking for ID it is usually the first or second question they will ask you. I'm not offended by it at all and would be more than happy to "carry my papers anywhere I go" The Constitution applies to you as fully as an other legal American citizen. The fact that you are of Hispanic decent is irrelevant.

[Ponch ®]

Sorry Ponch, and all those who think that illegal immigration is acceptable behavior and should be rewarded instead of punished, but this whole argument is BS and shouldnt even have taken place.  Illegals should never be here in the first place.

See...did I ever say it was acceptable and should be rewarded? read my previous posts. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Ponch is of Mexican origin, so therefore he MUST be a sympathizer of illegals.  

[RD]

Sorry Ponch, and all those who think that illegal immigration is acceptable behavior and should be rewarded instead of punished, but this whole argument is BS and shouldnt even have taken place.  Illegals should never be here in the first place.

See...did I ever say it was acceptable and should be rewarded? read my previous posts. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Ponch is of Mexican origin, so therefore he MUST be a sympathizer of illegals.  

if you do not punish them by sending them across the border, then you are rewarding them by allowing them to stay in this country.  i didnt say this because of your heritage, i said that because your rhetoric shows a sympathizing nature for those that are here illegally.  If I am mistaken, then correct me.. but your comment on "pissing all over the Constitution" made me believe you thought such legislation is illegal and directly contradicts current laws.

[Ponch ®]

And that principle is? Does your inconvenience over the possibility of being questioned about your status outweigh the common good? (see DUI checkpoints, employment drug screens, etc.) No it does not. As far as the extremist groups you mentioned if they fit the profile and generate a "reasonable suspicion" of being a danger to the greater good or public in general then yes we should watch and or go after them.

The principle is that I'm as American as you are, so unless they make everyone prove their citizenship/legal status, I shouldn't be treated any differently. When it comes to DUI and employment drug tests, you're comparing apples and oranges. Those instances aren't really targeting anyone specifically, and anyone that gets tagged is treated the same. Furthermore, you have a choice whether or not you want to apply for a job that has drug tests in the first place.  

We keep repeating that the Constitution only applies to Legal, and or naturalized American citizens because that is the stone cold fact of the matter. There is no gray area. In fact it clearly illustrates that we do indeed "get the point" As far as your argument about being susceptible to being questioned and asked about your legal status it's not an issue if you haven't committed any crime to bring you into contact with Law Enforcement. Unless you generate reasonable suspicion. (can't speak English, no ID, no legal residence, documentation/vehicles that belong to other people etc.) As far as having to prove you are legal it happens every single time you have contact with the police for any reason. In fact asking for ID it is usually the first or second question they will ask you. I'm not offended by it at all and would be more than happy to "carry my papers anywhere I go" The Constitution applies to you as fully as an other legal American citizen. The fact that you are of Hispanic decent is irrelevant.

Actually the constitution doesn't say ANYWHERE that it's only valid for Citizens or Legal Aliens. But I'm no constitutional scholar so..let's say you're right . Even then, the fact that I am hispanic is completely relevant, because what most of you guys seem to be saying is "so what if you get asked if you're legal or not and your rights are being trampled on...that's too bad, live with it because it's for a 'good cause'". Odds are 1000-1 that if I was caucasian, no one would ask me for papers...but since I'm not, I'm being treated differently.

[twodko]

Ponch,

I'm not disputing your point of view and, in fact, whole heartedly agree. This is the dilemma as I see it. There is no easy answer to this. What do we do? How do we address this issue as a country? How do we protect the civil rights of all people while exercising our right to protect the sovereignty of our borders? We have got to stop the bleeding of services and the draining of our resources by those who want to immigrate but have no intention of contributing to this country much less attaining legal status.
The only hope I have is that cooler minds will prevail in this debacle in fairness to all while addressing this very real need to close the porosity of our borders.

Tom

PS What RD said.

[Ponch ®]

Sorry Ponch, and all those who think that illegal immigration is acceptable behavior and should be rewarded instead of punished, but this whole argument is BS and shouldnt even have taken place.  Illegals should never be here in the first place.

See...did I ever say it was acceptable and should be rewarded? read my previous posts. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Ponch is of Mexican origin, so therefore he MUST be a sympathizer of illegals.  

if you do not punish them by sending them across the border, then you are rewarding them by allowing them to stay in this country.  i didnt say this because of your heritage, i said that because your rhetoric shows a sympathizing nature for those that are here illegally.  If I am mistaken, then correct me.. but your comment on "pissing all over the Constitution" made me believe you thought such legislation is illegal and directly contradicts current laws.

Yeah, I do think such legislation is illegal and unconstitutional, in the same vein that the Health Care reform is unconstitutional, or gun control laws are unconstitutional. The fact that this has to do with immigrants doesn't mean I necessarily sympathize with them or that I think they should be allowed to stay here. I'm more concerned with the nature of the law itself and the overall precedent it may set in regards to the rights of ALL Americans.

[Ponch ®]

Ponch,

The only hope I have is that cooler minds will prevail in this debacle in fairness to all while addressing this very real need to close the porosity of our borders.

Tom

Hey, I've already postulated my solution to that twice .  

[RD]

i would gladly be questioned by any policeman regarding my citizenship in order to ensure that those are illegal are removed expeditiously.  our fourth amendment rights are shit on by the government all the time.. illegal search and seizures, illegal wire tapping by homeland security agencies, etc. etc.  Yet we allow our government to infringe upon those "unalienable" rights every day.  Go ahead and put terrorism, jihad, and bomb in one sentence (oops just did) and see if you dont come up on a NSA or CIA or FBI spreadsheet somewhere.

its time to quit curtailing the rights and privileges of the whole for a minority that doesnt even have legality.  Its time to quit feeling like we are offending those who are illegal and realize the citizens of this country are OFFENDED.

[Ponch ®]

i would gladly be questioned by any policeman regarding my citizenship in order to ensure that those are illegal are removed expeditiously.  our fourth amendment rights are shit on by the government all the time.. illegal search and seizures, illegal wire tapping by homeland security agencies, etc. etc.  Yet we allow our government to infringe upon those "unalienable" rights every day.  Go ahead and put terrorism, jihad, and bomb in one sentence (oops just did) and see if you dont come up on a NSA or CIA or FBI spreadsheet somewhere.

its time to quit curtailing the rights and privileges of the whole for a minority that doesnt even have legality.  Its time to quit feeling like we are offending those who are illegal and realize the citizens of this country are OFFENDED.

I'm sure you would gladly be questioned about your citizenship...but realistically, do you think that's going to happen? No. I've seen your pic in the p90x thread (looking good, BTW...and I don't mean it in a gay way) and I seriously doubt you'd be suspected of being an illegal immigrant. But a guy that looks like me might get questioned about it just based on my appearance (which I can't help...unless I go all Michael Jackson), and that ain't cool because I'm just as American as you are. That's why I think there's a lot of things that need to or could be done to stop illegal immigration, but laws like these aren't the answer.  

[69DodgeCharger]

And that principle is? Does your inconvenience over the possibility of being questioned about your status outweigh the common good? (see DUI checkpoints, employment drug screens, etc.) No it does not. As far as the extremist groups you mentioned if they fit the profile and generate a "reasonable suspicion" of being a danger to the greater good or public in general then yes we should watch and or go after them.

The principle is that I'm as American as you are, so unless they make everyone prove their citizenship/legal status, I shouldn't be treated any differently. When it comes to DUI and employment drug tests, you're comparing apples and oranges. Those instances aren't really targeting anyone specifically, and anyone that gets tagged is treated the same. Furthermore, you have a choice whether or not you want to apply for a job that has drug tests in the first place. 

We keep repeating that the Constitution only applies to Legal, and or naturalized American citizens because that is the stone cold fact of the matter. There is no gray area. In fact it clearly illustrates that we do indeed "get the point" As far as your argument about being susceptible to being questioned and asked about your legal status it's not an issue if you haven't committed any crime to bring you into contact with Law Enforcement. Unless you generate reasonable suspicion. (can't speak English, no ID, no legal residence, documentation/vehicles that belong to other people etc.) As far as having to prove you are legal it happens every single time you have contact with the police for any reason. In fact asking for ID it is usually the first or second question they will ask you. I'm not offended by it at all and would be more than happy to "carry my papers anywhere I go" The Constitution applies to you as fully as an other legal American citizen. The fact that you are of Hispanic decent is irrelevant.

Actually the constitution doesn't say ANYWHERE that it's only valid for Citizens or Legal Aliens. But I'm no constitutional scholar so..let's say you're right . Even then, the fact that I am hispanic is completely relevant, because what most of you guys seem to be saying is "so what if you get asked if you're legal or not...that's too bad, live with it". Odds are 1000-1 that if I was caucasian, no one would ask me for papers...but since I'm not, I'm being treated differently.

Who says you are being treated differently? have you been stopped and "asked for your papers?" No I doubt that you ever have. You're screaming Chicken Little a bit prematurely aren't you? The drug screens and DUI checkpoints are apples to my apples in relation to preserving public safety. By being in the interest of the greater good. This was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States. Now how does profiling, or asking if an individual of any race is in the US legally compare to that? Simple, they have become an unbearable burden on the system with their anchor babies, drug dealing gangs, refusal to assimilate into American culture, learn the language, drunk driving, assaults and sex crimes. Not to mention the thieving. These symptoms are a drain on the "greater good" and to public safety and prosperity. And unfortunately the vast majority of those ills are created by Hispanic illegal aliens. Even in our little hickabilly neck of the woods. So therefore it only makes sense to "profile" them. By the way Police have been profiling people since the dawn of Law Enforcement. This country can no longer afford to take in every stray that shows up in the backyard. Sooner or later you have to "run them off" or take them "to the pound"....or more importantly quit feeding them. (benefits)

Is it ok that I get pulled over a few times a year on suspicion of drunken driving because I drive an older looking/beat up truck and wear a flannel shirt with a 3-4 day beard and a greasy ball cap traveling slowly down a backroad? No, but I fit the profile and know exactly why they have pulled me over usually. But I can live with it in the name of public safety. And the police have always made legal legitimate contact. I'm not real keen on it but I would rather they are actively enforcing and preventing this activity rather than just giving me a pass. It's not an inconvenience for me to prove I am "legal" and then I am on my way.

As far as your argument that you will be hassled by "The Man" If any Police officer can't tell within seconds you don't constitute "reasonable suspicion" then they need to be fired.

[Tilar]

Actually the constitution doesn't say ANYWHERE that it's only valid for Citizens or Legal Aliens.

Actually it does starting right at the very first sentance.

[Ponch ®]

Actually the constitution doesn't say ANYWHERE that it's only valid for Citizens or Legal Aliens.

Actually it does starting right at the very first sentance.

Maybe. Are you referring to "We the People Of the United States...."?  It's up for interpretation...it doesn't say that it's for citizens only. On the other hand, it doesn't say that it isn't. For the most part it's understood that "the People Of the United States" is everyone under the Jurisdiction of the laws of the land (which would include illegal immigrants) or simply that "The People" run the government, not the other way around. But i don't know...you could be right.

Either way, it's somewhat paradoxical to say that illegal aliens aren't protected by the Constitution, because by that same logic then they are not subject to the law, thus they can't be accused of a crime of breaking any laws, since technically those laws don't apply to them based on their illegal status.

[RD]

i would gladly be questioned by any policeman regarding my citizenship in order to ensure that those are illegal are removed expeditiously.  our fourth amendment rights are shit on by the government all the time.. illegal search and seizures, illegal wire tapping by homeland security agencies, etc. etc.  Yet we allow our government to infringe upon those "unalienable" rights every day.  Go ahead and put terrorism, jihad, and bomb in one sentence (oops just did) and see if you dont come up on a NSA or CIA or FBI spreadsheet somewhere.

its time to quit curtailing the rights and privileges of the whole for a minority that doesnt even have legality.  Its time to quit feeling like we are offending those who are illegal and realize the citizens of this country are OFFENDED.

I'm sure you would gladly be questioned about your citizenship...but realistically, do you think that's going to happen? No. I've seen your pic in the p90x thread (looking good, BTW...and I don't mean it in a gay way) and I seriously doubt you'd be suspected of being an illegal immigrant. But a guy that looks like me might get questioned about it just based on my appearance (which I can't help...unless I go all Michael Jackson), and that ain't cool because I'm just as American as you are. That's why I think there's a lot of things that need to or could be done to stop illegal immigration, but laws like these aren't the answer. 

Ponch, I hold no ill-will to you, I personally LOVE you for your comment about my body and how much you want me (even though I am not a sista! )  Okay, I stretched that one a little far hehe... Let's just chalk my tirade up to a bad day and hope you accept my apology if I upset you mate.

Jamey

[hemi68charger]

Maybe. Are you referring to "We the People Of the United States...."?  It's up for interpretation...it doesn't say that it's for citizens only. On the other hand, it doesn't say that it isn't. For the most part it's understood that "the People Of the United States" is everyone under the Jurisdiction of the laws of the land (which would include illegal immigrants) or simply that "The People" run the government, not the other way around. But i don't know...you could be right.

Either way, it's somewhat paradoxical to say that illegal aliens aren't protected by the Constitution, because by that same logic then they are not subject to the law, thus they can't be accused of a crime of breaking any laws, since technically those laws don't apply to them based on their illegal status.

OK Ponch.......... talk about a stretch.......... Think you need a course in Constitutional Law (I'm no expert, but that philosophy is so far-fetched)..... If you're going to use the argument that not being protected by law enables one to have immunity from the law (like some diplomatic dignitary), you just fell flat on your face.........

I'm done.........

[Ponch ®]

Maybe. Are you referring to "We the People Of the United States...."?  It's up for interpretation...it doesn't say that it's for citizens only. On the other hand, it doesn't say that it isn't. For the most part it's understood that "the People Of the United States" is everyone under the Jurisdiction of the laws of the land (which would include illegal immigrants) or simply that "The People" run the government, not the other way around. But i don't know...you could be right.

Either way, it's somewhat paradoxical to say that illegal aliens aren't protected by the Constitution, because by that same logic then they are not subject to the law, thus they can't be accused of a crime of breaking any laws, since technically those laws don't apply to them based on their illegal status.

OK Ponch.......... Think you need a course in Constitutional Law..... If you're going to use the argument that not being protected by law enables one to have immunity from the law (like some diplomatic dignitary), you just fell flat on your face.........

I'm done.........

hey man, I don't know, I could be wrong (and I have no problem saying that). I'm just thinking that in a twisted way it makes sense. It's kinda like saying "If I punch an illegal in the face, I can't go to jail because he's illegal and is not protected by the law, but if he punches ME in the face, then he should go to jail". That sort of thing.

[69DodgeCharger]

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/birth/1bc4e_doc.html - The Constitution

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html - Bill Of Rights

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/h.sb1070_04-19-10_astransmittedtogovernor.doc.htm - Arizona Immigration Law

[Tilar]

Personally, I think Article 3 of The Articles of Confederation could justify the new law in AZ and give other states the power to help enforce it.

[Mike DC]

                          

The Consititution never seriously dealt with any of the immigration issues we have today.  In the 1700s they did not have a big pile of "legal" and "illegal" citizens to differentiate between.  Of course they wrote some immigration & citizenship laws but it wasn't the same environment.  


 

Ponch is talking about the Arizona law's potential for promoting racial profiling.  

What we should do about illegals when we catch them . . . totally different subject.  

 

[skip68]

I don't care what color of skin you have, if you go to a country "U.S." and a large amount of people from your country "Mexico" are flooding the new country "U.S." with crime, you need to EXPECT to be looked at more than the natives of the new country.   I would think that most of the Mexicans in AZ would want to help protect the better way of life and help put a stop to all the bad apples coming from Mexico.  This is a bad problem we have keeping the bad ones out.  They just need to suck it up and deal with it.