once again california wants to tell other states what to do

[mauve66]

http://www.newser.com/article/d9flikvg0/la-city-council-approves-boycott-of-arizona-business-over-new-immigration-law.html

[mauve66]

Mexicans here and in Mexico are rather upset by the recent enactment of stricter anti-illegal alien laws by Arizona 's Legislature.



Paraphase of another country's Immigration Laws:



1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

2. All ballots will be in this nation's language.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

3. All government business will be conducted in our language.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

4. Non-residents will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

6. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs. Any burden will be deported.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

8. If foreigners come here and buy land... options will be restricted. Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

9. Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies. These will lead to deportation.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted &, when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All assets will be taken from you.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Too strict?

The above laws are the current immigration laws of MEXICO !

[Ponch ®]

http://www.newser.com/article/d9flikvg0/la-city-council-approves-boycott-of-arizona-business-over-new-immigration-law.html

What these mental midgets don't seem to realize is that by enacting these boycotts, the people that are really getting screwed aren't the AZ legislature or the governor...it's the waiters, busboys, hospitality employees, cooks, construction workers, etc. who will lose money  - if not their jobs altogether - as a direct result of these boycotts' impact. And guess what...a lot of these people are legal Hispanic/Mexicans. Talk about self serving, shortsighted attempts at grandstanding.

[TK73]

I don't understand how this is California telling other states what to do...

Can you explain please?

[AKcharger]

I don't understand how this is California telling other states what to do...

Can you explain please?

Emsions standards, trying to push a carbon cap and tax scam, stuff like that.

...the "thread lock" clock is ticking 

[bull]

I don't understand how this is California telling other states what to do...

Can you explain please?

You need to remove the Marxist-colored glasses to understand.

[Ponch ®]

I don't understand how this is California telling other states what to do...

Can you explain please?

Emsions standards, trying to push a carbon cap and tax scam, stuff like that.

...the "thread lock" clock is ticking 

California ain't telling other states what to do. The other states have chosen to follow.

[TK73]

I don't understand how this is California telling other states what to do...

Can you explain please?

You need to remove the Marxist-colored glasses to understand.

Ah... sorry my conspiracy-paranoid colored ones are in the shop...   

[Mike DC]

     
Considering how dysfunctional the entire govt of Cali is, it's amazing that govt sees itself as a model for other states to follow. 

[RECHRGD]

Why is it that damn near every thing I buy has a warning on it that the state of California has determined that something used in the making of said product may cause cancer?   Bob

[PocketThunder]

We dont have that issue here in Minnesota, it too cold up here!   

[hemi68charger]

...

Too strict?

The above laws are the current immigration laws of MEXICO !

Our country has become one of enabling and what demographics can get me the "empathic/sympathic" vote......  The melting pot is boiling over.. There's only so much you can put in the pot to begin with........... In the spirit of Willie Wonka, our country's borders aren't an "Everlasting Gobstopper"...

[twodko]

Those folks in every state who are legal citizens of this country not with standing, IMO Arizona has had the balls to do what other states can't or won't.

Tom

[Ponch ®]

IMO Arizona has had the balls to do what other states can't or won't.

Tom

piss all over the Constitution?

[Charger74]

IMO Arizona has had the balls to do what other states can't or won't.

Tom

piss all over the Constitution?

No Ponch, enforce the laws that our federal gov't won't.  If you read the bill signed into law in AZ, it clearly mirrors federal law.  Please read it, then research the federal immigration laws.    AZ is not trampling the Constitution unlike our current congress and administration is doing.

Besides, best quote I heard is this.  Let LA boycott AZ, it's not like the have the money to spend there anyway.

[hemi68charger]

IMO Arizona has had the balls to do what other states can't or won't.

Tom

piss all over the Constitution?

WHAT !!!!!  
The Constitution and it's original meaning has been so diluted it's plain wrong...........

Constitution doesn't give any provisions to duplicate schooling in other languages, print all governmental policies and documents in two different languages or giving people here illegally any "Monopoly" get-out-of-jail card. I do believe it was taken for granted by our founding fathers that everyone was to speak a unified language. In so much so, it wasn't addressed.. I bet they would have something to say about it now.. I hope they aren't turning over in their graves and getting all flustered up there in Heaven. You do the crime, you serve the time, on the other side. Period. The Constitution doesn't empower the children of illegals to free schooling, etc, etc, etc (I'm not heartless, but it's gotten to the pitful end of the spectrum where you can't really do anything but stop further expansion cold-turkey)...........

Piss all over the Constitution !!!??? Arizona is protecting it's borders because the very people ( I can say names because I'm still in the military ) won't provide executive orders to enforce the law, but by-God, I had better be able to serve my country on a moments notice when he,, errrrrrr,, I mean, they call on me. !! (By the way, I've answered that call on 4 different occasions). I would love to see the financial report on all the money spent on duplication of effort from a governmental level (Local, State and Federal). I bet it would a lot...........

If people truly here want a better life for themselves and their family, start off by giving back to this country. Starting now, all "undocumented aliens/residents/current-catch phrase must serve 6 years military serve............  

It pisses me off to no end to think I have continued to serve my country for 20+ years protecting the Constitution. Just because people are here physically, doesn't mean they fall under the protection of that said sacred piece of paper..... They have to earn it !!! (do it the proper and legal way)  Arizona is taking care of business, and kudos to them........ Unless anyone's been living with their heads in the sand, the violent criminal activity coming in from southern borders is a reality, period... I'm calling a spade a spade.. It is what it is.......... There's no profiling involved..... I don't hear about too many Germans or Italians crossing the borders............ I do hear illegals and their legal family members protesting that their civil rights have been violated.. "Bah Humbug".... If that much energy was spent in their homeland getting rid of corruption, they might have a reason to stay home and thrive.........

Can anyone tell this subject is near to my heart?  

[Troy]

If you read closely it's yet another piece of legislation with no teeth. There are very few contracts covered under the "boycott". I think the number I saw was less than $4 million(?). Most of the real contracts are deemed too important (or too legally bound) to get out of.

Troy

[Ponch ®]

IMO Arizona has had the balls to do what other states can't or won't.

Tom

piss all over the Constitution?

No Ponch, enforce the laws that our federal gov't won't.  If you read the bill signed into law in AZ, it clearly mirrors federal law.  Please read it, then research the federal immigration laws.    AZ is not trampling the Constitution unlike our current congress and administration is doing.

Actually, it is trampling on the Constitution. As we discussed in the "Speak English" thread - its enforcement will raise Fourth Amendment and Equal Protection/Due Process issues. How do you differentiate between a legal or illegal immigrant, all things being equal? Does the legal immigrant (or American Citizen of hispanic descent) deserve to be hassled about his legal status just because of his appearance or name? I guess the sensible option would be to make EVERYONE (not just immigrants) carry some sort of documentation that proves they are citizens or legal immigrants and show it every time they get pulled over for running a stop sign. But then again, National IDs is something those wacky Europeans do...and we don't wanna be like them, do we?  

Have YOU actually read the Arizona law and federal laws? Although states can set their own laws on how to deal with immigrant related crimes, they can't set their own policies on immigration itself (check out the 1996 Immigration Reform Act - it forbids local/state participation of immigration enforcement without permission from the Federal Government). This is how the Arizona law opens :"The intent of this act is to make attrition [of the immigrant population] through enforcement the public policy of all state and local government agencies in Arizona." It's basically saying that its going to implement it's own laws to drive out immigrants. It doesn't matter if it mirrors Federal Law...it simply can't do it. Arizona might as well decide to start its own trade alliances with China, or declare war on Canada.

I'm not saying that illegal immigration isn't a problem or that something shouldn't be done about it. But this Arizona law is pretty egregious. It's trampling on the laws of the land on the pretext that it's going to punish those who are breaking the law (the illegals). Two wrongs don't make a right!

Troy (Hemi68charger) - I understand that this a matter very dear to your heart, and appreciate your service to our country. But you can't miss the point that we can't start chipping away at some of the most sacred values and ideals (citizenship, equality, INALIENABLE RIGHTS) that we hold as Americans just because there is a problem and we think that doing so will help solve it. Those very ideals are what makes us an exceptional nation and sets us apart from other countries. This isn't some third world country, where whoever is in charge changes/adapts the laws to fit whatever the current situation calls for. It's like the anti-gun nuts who go on a crusade to ban all guns just because some wacko goes on a shooting rampage. It's pretty shortsighted, just like the stupid boycotts of Arizona IMHO.

[Mike DC]

IMHO the Arizona law was a hand grenade lobbed into Washington.  They're trying to start a ruckus and get a conversation going.  I hope they succeed in doing that. 



If the other 49 states said the sky was blue, then the Cali govt would past a law declaring it green just to be difficult. They would rather be trendy than have a functioning state. 

 

[hemi68charger]

Actually, it is trampling on the Constitution. As we discussed in the "Speak English" thread - its enforcement will raise Fourth Amendment and Equal Protection/Due Process issues. How do you differentiate between a legal or illegal immigrant, all things being equal?

How is anyone here illegally protected by the 4th? And, how do you differentiate? I don't think AZ law empowers cops to pull over and check for the sake of checking. This is akin to Al Qaeda and the Taliban, they blend in so well, it's hard to tell the bad guys from the good. I know that's the extreme, but it's the same nonetheless... We've been too passive in the past, it's time to act and if someone can come up with a better proposal, I'm sure governmental agencies are ALL ears. AZ has had enough... You don't think 11 million illegals are extreme? Naaaaaaaaaaa, just a drop in the bucket.

... I guess the sensible option would be to make EVERYONE (not just immigrants) carry some sort of documentation that proves they are citizens or legal immigrants and show it every time they get pulled over for running a stop sign. But then again, that's something those wacky Europeans do...and we don't wanna be like them, do we?  

Ponch,, why not have a national ID card? I'm for it, wouldn't phase me a bit... Actually, your Immigration Reform Act of 1996 states all immigrants must have a biometric id card issued, think vaccination history is required as well... Lord only knows what infections may be crossing the border. Another reason to protect the borders...... Enforcement by the Fed's is short of hysterical at best. They have done NOTHING, NADA, NILL for decades........... Yes, both Republican and Democratic administrations are guilty as charged, so there's plenty of people to point fingers at.

Also, although states can set their own laws on how to deal with immigrant related crimes, they can't set their own policies on immigration itself (check out the 1996 Immigration Reform Act - it forbids local/state participation of immigration enforcement without permission from the Federal Government). Have you actually read the Arizona law?  "The intent of this act is to make attrition [of the immigrant population] through enforcement the public policy of all state and local government agencies in Arizona." It's basically saying that its going to implement it's own laws to drive out immigrants. Arizona might as well decide to start its own trade alliances with China, or declare war on Canada.

How many times do you have to ask then before you take matters into your own hands... Maybe if the Fed's would have stepped it up, AZ wouldn't have had to enforce the law.

What section covers States being neutered? I just googled the law and read it briefly... I see where the US Attorney General can work with State officials in getting training in the new Federal Law.

As far as attrition goes, it's called deterrence......

[moparstuart]

IMO Arizona has had the balls to do what other states can't or won't.

Tom

piss all over the Constitution?

No Ponch, enforce the laws that our federal gov't won't.  If you read the bill signed into law in AZ, it clearly mirrors federal law.  Please read it, then research the federal immigration laws.    AZ is not trampling the Constitution unlike our current congress and administration is doing.

Actually, it is trampling on the Constitution. As we discussed in the "Speak English" thread - its enforcement will raise Fourth Amendment and Equal Protection/Due Process issues. How do you differentiate between a legal or illegal immigrant, all things being equal? Does the legal immigrant (or American Citizen of hispanic descent) deserve to be hassled about his legal status just because of his appearance or name? I guess the sensible option would be to make EVERYONE (not just immigrants) carry some sort of documentation that proves they are citizens or legal immigrants and show it every time they get pulled over for running a stop sign. But then again, National IDs is something those wacky Europeans do...and we don't wanna be like them, do we?  

Have YOU actually read the Arizona law and federal laws? Although states can set their own laws on how to deal with immigrant related crimes, they can't set their own policies on immigration itself (check out the 1996 Immigration Reform Act - it forbids local/state participation of immigration enforcement without permission from the Federal Government). This is how the Arizona law opens :"The intent of this act is to make attrition [of the immigrant population] through enforcement the public policy of all state and local government agencies in Arizona." It's basically saying that its going to implement it's own laws to drive out immigrants. It doesn't matter if it mirrors Federal Law...it simply can't do it. Arizona might as well decide to start its own trade alliances with China, or declare war on Canada.

I'm not saying that illegal immigration isn't a problem or that something shouldn't be done about it. But this Arizona law is pretty egregious. It's trampling on the laws of the land on the pretext that it's going to punish those who are breaking the law (the illegals). Two wrongs don't make a right!

Troy (Hemi68charger) - I understand that this a matter very dear to your heart, and appreciate your service to our country. But you can't miss the point that we can't start chipping away at some of the most sacred values and ideals (citizenship, equality, INALIENABLE RIGHTS) that we hold as Americans just because there is a problem and we think that doing so will help solve it. Those very ideals are what makes us an exceptional nation and sets us apart from other countries. This isn't some third world country, where whoever is in charge changes/adapts the laws to fit whatever the current situation calls for. It's like the anti-gun nuts who go on a crusade to ban all guns just because some wacko goes on a shooting rampage. It's pretty shortsighted, just like the stupid boycotts of Arizona IMHO.

I agree ponch tell a bunch of white guys they have to carry paper work and be subject to search and see the sh*t hit the fan  . 

[Ponch ®]

How is anyone here illegally protected by the 4th? And, how do you differentiate? I don't think AZ law empowers cops to pull over and check for the sake of checking. This is akin to Al Qaeda and the Taliban, they blend in so well, it's hard to tell the bad guys from the good. I know that's the extreme, but it's the same nonetheless... We've been too passive in the past, it's time to act and if someone can come up with a better proposal, I'm sure governmental agencies are ALL ears. AZ has had enough... You don't think 11 million illegals are extreme? Naaaaaaaaaaa, just a drop in the bucket.

It's not so much the illegals that are protected by the Fourth Amendement, it's the people who are here legally or American Citizens (like myself) who happen to be Hispanic. They may not pull someone over just for the sake of checking, but if I run a stop sign and get pulled over, why should I be subjected to the humlliation of being asked if I'm legal or not? Let's face it, if a blond blue eyed white guy named Parker Rockefeller gets pulled over for the same thing, odds are they are not going to ask him for papers. If you think that scenario would not happen, that's just being naive. In other words, I'm being treated differently - as a US Citizen - just because of how I look and/or my name.  How is that kosher?

Ponch,, why not have a national ID card? I'm for it, wouldn't phase me a bit... Actually, your Immigration Reform Act of 1996 states all immigrants must have a biometric id card issued, think vaccination history is required as well... Lord only knows what infections may be crossing the border. Another reason to protect the borders...... Enforcement by the Fed's is short of hysterical at best. They have done NOTHING, NADA, NILL for decades........... Yes, both Republican and Democratic administrations are guilty as charged, so there's plenty of people to point fingers at.

I agree, there's plenty of people to point fingers at, of all political persuasions. Again, I'm not defending illegal immigration nor do I think the borders shouldn't be protected. Hey, they can build the Berlin wall shoot them at the border for all I care. I'm more concerned about our rights and freedoms as Americans that are being sacrificed in a reactionary manner. Why would we want a national ID card? Like I said, that's something Europeans do...and maybe it helps them keep better tabs on who goes into their countries...but for the most part all it does is help them control their citizens more than their borders. Given the current situation and the way things are going...do we really want to give that opening  to (guy you can't name).

How many times do you have to ask then before you take matters into your own hands... Maybe if the Fed's would have stepped it up, AZ wouldn't have had to enforce the law.

What section covers States being neutered? I just googled the law and read it briefly... I see where the US Attorney General can work with State officials in getting training in the new Federal Law.

As far as attrition goes, it's called deterrence......

Because if every person / state / city/ individual starts taking matters into their own hands every time they feel wronged, we'd end up in anarchy and chaos. Whether or not what the feds are doing is adequate or not is one thing. Can't start making up your own laws just because you don't like what's already in place. Again, it's what sets us apart from other places.

BTW - it's Section 133 (too long and verbose to repost it, but look it up). basically it says that any Immigration Enforcement is ultimately under the jurisdiction and supervision of the Attorney General (ie. the Feds)

[tricky lugnuts]

I'm pretty sure the Arizona does not allow the simple "your papers, please" police action unless an individual has already been lawfully stopped for questioning as being a suspect involved in some other, non-immigration related criminal activity - that is, if the police pull you over for suspected drunk driving and THEN have reason to believe you may not be a legal citizen, then they can ask to see proof that you are a citizen. I don't think the new law allows police in Arizona to just patrol the streets asking suspected foreigners for their papers.

Here's the exact language of the bill... Note, this language was a last-minute addition to the bill to placate folks worried that the law would lead to racial profiling and unwarranted stops by police officers: 

"For any lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town in this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation."

You must realize, as things stand now, in many states illegal immigrants are arrested on criminal charges, only to be released on low bonds and then never show up again for court.

QUOTE:
I agree ponch tell a bunch of white guys they have to carry paper work and be subject to search and see the sh*t hit the fan  . 
END QUOTE

But you realize, hopefully, that is exactly what Congress plans to do...

The "bipartisan" immigration reform law introduced by Senator Lindsay Graham (R-South Carolina) and a Democrat that eludes my memory at this point, would establish a new biometric national ID card that all American citizens would have to get to be employed. (Aside from granting amnesty to millions of illegal aliens with no criminal records who agree to pay a fine.) Under the proposed law, citizens would not have to get the new biometric card - which would use a retina scan, the veins on the back of your hand, fingerprints, it hasn't been decided yet, of course -immediately. They would only have to get one when they switched jobs for the first time after the law is implemented.

To me, that is 1. punishing American employers and 2. punishing American citizens... Those are two things, in my opinion, this government is really starting to excel at.

[hemi68charger]

How is anyone here illegally protected by the 4th? And, how do you differentiate? I don't think AZ law empowers cops to pull over and check for the sake of checking. This is akin to Al Qaeda and the Taliban, they blend in so well, it's hard to tell the bad guys from the good. I know that's the extreme, but it's the same nonetheless... We've been too passive in the past, it's time to act and if someone can come up with a better proposal, I'm sure governmental agencies are ALL ears. AZ has had enough... You don't think 11 million illegals are extreme? Naaaaaaaaaaa, just a drop in the bucket.

It's not so much the illegals that are protected by the Fourth Amendement, it's the people who are here legally or American Citizens (like myself) who happen to be Hispanic. They may not pull someone over just for the sake of checking, but if I run a stop sign and get pulled over, why should I be subjected to the humlliation of being asked if I'm legal or not? Let's face it, if a blond blue eyed white guy named Parker Rockefeller gets pulled over for the same thing, odds are they are not going to ask him for papers. If you think that scenario would not happen, that's just being naive. In other words, I'm being treated differently - as a US Citizen - just because of how I look and/or my name.  How is that kosher?

Ponch,, why not have a national ID card? I'm for it, wouldn't phase me a bit... Actually, your Immigration Reform Act of 1996 states all immigrants must have a biometric id card issued, think vaccination history is required as well... Lord only knows what infections may be crossing the border. Another reason to protect the borders...... Enforcement by the Fed's is short of hysterical at best. They have done NOTHING, NADA, NILL for decades........... Yes, both Republican and Democratic administrations are guilty as charged, so there's plenty of people to point fingers at.

I agree, there's plenty of people to point fingers at, of all political persuasions. Again, I'm not defending illegal immigration nor do I think the borders shouldn't be protected. Hey, they can build the Berlin wall shoot them at the border for all I care. I'm more concerned about our rights and freedoms as Americans that are being sacrificed in a reactionary manner. Why would we want a national ID card? Like I said, that's something Europeans do...and maybe it helps them keep better tabs on who goes into their countries...but for the most part all it does is help them control their citizens more than their borders. Given the current situation and the way things are going...do we really want to give that opening  to (guy you can't name).

How many times do you have to ask then before you take matters into your own hands... Maybe if the Fed's would have stepped it up, AZ wouldn't have had to enforce the law.

What section covers States being neutered? I just googled the law and read it briefly... I see where the US Attorney General can work with State officials in getting training in the new Federal Law.

As far as attrition goes, it's called deterrence......

Because if every person / state / city/ individual starts taking matters into their own hands every time they feel wronged, we'd end up in anarchy and chaos. Whether or not what the feds are doing is adequate or not is one thing. Can't start making up your own laws just because you don't like what's already in place. Again, it's what sets us apart from other places.

BTW - it's Section 133 (too long and verbose to repost it, but look it up). basically it says that any Immigration Enforcement is ultimately under the jurisdiction and supervision of the Attorney General (ie. the Feds)

All I'm going to say is the time is now to stop.. We can panhandle this situaiton until we're blue in the face. Liberalists are going to cry foul every time the police question anyone. One must have very thin skin to be offended about being asked if one's legal or not. The sad reality of it is that most, easily 90%, of illegals are of Hispanic origin. If you think anarchy is going to happen because States enforce Federal Law (and who's to say AZ didn't consult with the US Attorney General), then you have another thing coming if 11 million more illegals show up on our door steps... California couldn't change any laws now even if it wanted to... There's too much hispanic influence.. It's like zoning in Houston, it'll never happen........ The city can go to hell and look like dodo, but noone's going to care because everyone wants their selfish convenience of being able to park their cars and trucks in their front yards and house up to 3 families per one house ( yes, it happens,,, I lived here, see it, breath it and unfortunately, moved from it)........

We can go back - n - forth until we're blue in the face.............. From my point of view, it has to stop... Period......... If it means stepping out of the box to do it, so be it....... I applaud AZ in their "we're not out to make friends" approach and if it offends you to enforce law, Sorry.............   Come up with a better plan.............  No one has yet................

[69DodgeCharger]

IMO Arizona has had the balls to do what other states can't or won't.

Tom

piss all over the Constitution?

How do you figure? Can you point out the unconstitionality of the said laws. One of which is basically a mirror of Federal law which surely must have been reviewed by US attorneys prior to enactment. Or perhaps you were thinking of the unconstitionality of forcing citizens under the penalty of law to purchase a certian product from private for profit businesses, or be fined and or jailed Or have the Govt. take it directly from your accounts, or from your tax return....Or are you just crying because somebody finally has the "stones" to do what's right and put LEGAL American citizens first.