In America it's English, learn it.

[moparstuart]

 
Compare the current hispanic illegal immigration to what happened 100-150 years ago with the Irish.  

Those old Irish immigrants were legal (mainly due to a system that actually let large numbers of immigrants in easily) but that's about the only difference.  The same complaints were made about them.  They come over, they have too many kids they can't support, they take our bottom-rung jobs, they're slobs living in group homes in bad conditions, they're dragging down the rest of us middle class people, etc.  




Every generation of natives gets pissed off as soon as they get a bit threatened by the number of immigrants.  This battle gets re-fought over and over again through the centuries.  It's part of capitalism at the core for a country to do this, just like outsourcing stuff overseas.

I would agree that the current situation with absolutely no border control is all wrong and it needs to end.  (IMHO it's downright ludicrous when the nation claims to be fighting a "War on Terror" at the same time.)  But it doesn't make a ton of difference in the overall big picture situation.  In past times we would have let in virtually anyone who tried to come here too, they would just not have broken any laws in the process.  I'm not defending breaking the laws, but I'm saying that our modern-era strict immigration policies have essentially outlawed something that was historically normal for the country.




In short - if you don't like lots of fairly recent immigrants, you're in the wrong country.  

We can protest the open borders and the illegal nature of the current batch of immigrants.  But trying to kick them back out of the country is basically counter to the core of the USA's principles. 

[bull]

 
Compare the current hispanic illegal immigration to what happened 100-150 years ago with the Irish.  

Those old Irish immigrants were legal (mainly due to a system that actually let large numbers of immigrants in easily) but that's about the only difference.  The same complaints were made about them.  They come over, they have too many kids they can't support, they take our bottom-rung jobs, they're slobs living in group homes in bad conditions, they're dragging down the rest of us middle class people, etc.  

Every generation of natives gets pissed off as soon as they get a bit threatened by the number of immigrants.  This battle gets re-fought over and over again through the centuries.  It's part of capitalism at the core for a country to do this, just like outsourcing stuff overseas.

I would agree that the current situation with absolutely no border control is all wrong and it needs to end.  (IMHO it's downright ludicrous when the nation claims to be fighting a "War on Terror" at the same time.)  But it doesn't make a ton of difference in the overall big picture situation.  In past times we would have let in virtually anyone who tried to come here too, they would just not have broken any laws in the process.  I'm not defending breaking the laws, but I'm saying that our modern-era strict immigration policies have essentially outlawed something that was historically normal for the country.

In short - if you don't like lots of fairly recent immigrants, you're in the wrong country.  

We can protest the open borders and the illegal nature of the current batch of immigrants.  But trying to kick them back out of the country is basically counter to the core of the USA's principles. 

Flawed apples/oranges logic IMO. Maybe people complained about immigration back then but as you pointed out it was legal. And at that point in time there were not countless social programs using our money to give them handouts. And as far as I know they weren't killing US citizens and kidnapping them and trashing the place and protesting in the streets when people said enough. And there were vast amounts of wide open spaces that were expanding (to the bane of the Indians) and the number wasn't 11 million among a population of 309 million. People will always complain about uncertain changes but in this case I think the correct term for what's going on is "righteous anger."

[hemi68charger]

 
Compare the current hispanic illegal immigration to what happened 100-150 years ago with the Irish.  

Those old Irish immigrants were legal (mainly due to a system that actually let large numbers of immigrants in easily) but that's about the only difference.  The same complaints were made about them.  They come over, they have too many kids they can't support, they take our bottom-rung jobs, they're slobs living in group homes in bad conditions, they're dragging down the rest of us middle class people, etc.  




Every generation of natives gets pissed off as soon as they get a bit threatened by the number of immigrants.  This battle gets re-fought over and over again through the centuries.  It's part of capitalism at the core for a country to do this, just like outsourcing stuff overseas.

I would agree that the current situation with absolutely no border control is all wrong and it needs to end.  (IMHO it's downright ludicrous when the nation claims to be fighting a "War on Terror" at the same time.)  But it doesn't make a ton of difference in the overall big picture situation.  In past times we would have let in virtually anyone who tried to come here too, they would just not have broken any laws in the process.  I'm not defending breaking the laws, but I'm saying that our modern-era strict immigration policies have essentially outlawed something that was historically normal for the country.




In short - if you don't like lots of fairly recent immigrants, you're in the wrong country.  

We can protest the open borders and the illegal nature of the current batch of immigrants.  But trying to kick them back out of the country is basically counter to the core of the USA's principles. 

I respectively disagree.........  

The America we know can take only so much expansion at any given time. If one continues to use the argument of past immigration (case and point, Irish), there was a better form of assimilation. People actually wanted to assimilate. Nowadays, they could care less... We didn't have social programs who catered to the impoverished new mass. We didn't have two different streams of the educational system, hence under-utilizing our tax base. It's simply crazy. Then, to top it off, many make sure to have their babies here in the States in order to claim residency based on their new-born's citizenship...

[Ponch ®]

 our modern-era strict immigration policies have essentially outlawed something that was historically normal for the country.

unless you were Chinese or Japanese....

People that say "well, my great grandparents came here from (Insert European Country Name Here) and they came here legally..." forget that back then all you pretty much had to do was show up at Ellis Island, get yourself a cool name like "Vito Corleone" and you were in - legally. I have relatives that have been trying to come here legally for years, but the process is entirely too complicated or cost prohibitive. And the people that are coming here illegally don't really have the means nor the patience to go through the proper channels. Having said that, I think going back to the modus operandi of the late 1800's-early 1900's is unrealistic and dangerous. For instance, we let a bunch of real life Vito Corleone's in back then..who knows who'd try to sneak in now.

But I still think if the issue is with 'illegal' immigrants, then perhaps we should look at how to make the process of coming here legally simpler and more effective. Oh that's right...they'll be bringing their mongrel people culture and habits with them...

[hemi68charger]

 our modern-era strict immigration policies have essentially outlawed something that was historically normal for the country.

Shot, I think we're finally catching up with the rest of the world. Heck, Mexico has stricter punishments than we do.......... We have liberties here in the States, that goes without saying, but lets not abuse those liberties.

[Mike DC]

 
I would agree that what we had 100 years ago wouldn't be the greatest idea to re-implement today. 

But then again you could have said the same thing back then too, and for all the same reasons.  And remember that the working/middle class natives are always the group that wants the immigration numbers reduced, past or present.



So when is a tighter immigration & deportation policy "progress" and when is it going against the grain of the country's (somewhat reckless) character? 

Wherever the line eventually gets drawn in our lifetimes, it probably still won't be tight enough to satisfy the natives. 

[Ponch ®]

Wherever the line eventually gets drawn in our lifetimes, it probably still won't be tight enough to satisfy the natives.  

exactly, for them there will always be a reason why "those people" shouldn't be here:

As I said earlier in this thread...first it's "I have no problem with immigrants as long as they're here legally", then "I have no problem with immigrants as long as they're here legally and speak english", and eventually it will be "I have no problem with immigrants as long as they're here legally, they speak english, and they're not of "undesirable" cultural backgrounds". I mean, where does it end?

[twodko]

Johnny SixPack

Now that's forward thinking!

T

[RD]

But I still think if the issue is with 'illegal' immigrants, then perhaps we should look at how to make the process of coming here legally simpler and more effective.

I agree with you to an extent, but at the same time, should we allow a greater number of people into the United States to just fix Mexico's inability to deal with their own dying country?  If Mexico was not so backwards, then maybe the huge influx of the Mexican's into our country would not be so bad.

The United States is no longer the huge industrial might that we used to be.  We do not have the blue collar labor jobs available that will be able to handle a huge influx of unskilled workers into the U.S. if the immigration policy was made easier.  Then, with all of these new people/citizens, what jobs would they do?  The current unemployment rate is hideous, yet we should allow more people into the pool to make the ratio even higher?

The point of the matter is this.  The U.S. should not HAVE to lessen its immigration policy, Mexico should fix their fricken country.  The longer the U.S. coddles Mexico and all the illegal immigrants from that country, then there is no need for Mexico to right itself.  Mexico is a staging area into the American dream.  That is what Mexico's economy banks on.  Whether it is through illegal immigrants making money and sending it to Mexico, or the international drug trade being ran through its country, or its hugely corrupt government that has no inherent power or the ability to enforce anything; Mexico cant fight itself out of a wet paper bag.

So, the facts are this.  The U.S. needs to quit having a huggy/feely/warm'n fuzzy political correctness domestic and foreign policy when it comes to illegal immigration and put some teeth into their laws.  Because what they are doing now is not working.  And because it is not working, Mexico will NEVER pull their head out of their ass and become something greater than what they are.

The U.S. citizens that pay for all the unnecessary health costs, social services, and yet do not receive the same equitable treatment as illegal immigrants should not have to SHOULDER the costs that are caused by criminal activity from illegal immigration. (one example being a illegal immigrant receiving in-state tuition, when a person who is a U.S. citizen has to pay out of state tuition if from a different state: texas and kansas states offer this bullshiza policy.  how is that fair.  you are being rewarded to be an illegal?)

If that is discrimination, then by God I will stick to it.  Call me a racist, call me a bigot, call me whatever the hell you want.  If you want the illegals here, fine and dandy, you go pay for their health related costs, their welfare, and their tuition.  Do not ask me to, because I will not.


~~~~~~~~edit~~~~~~~~~

I do not care if Mexico was a country populated by caucasians who speak zimbabwean, if they choose to illegally enter my country, become a drain on its resources, and fails to remotely attempt at assimilating to its current culture, then they need to get out expeditiously.

[bull]

As I said earlier in this thread...first it's "I have no problem with immigrants as long as they're here legally", then "I have no problem with immigrants as long as they're here legally and speak english", and eventually it will be "I have no problem with immigrants as long as they're here legally, they speak english, and they're not of "undesirable" cultural backgrounds". I mean, where does it end?

But Ponch, in essence that is the policy now. If you ask a Canadian what it takes to legally become a US citizen they'll tell you that you have to prove you are worth your salt, have a certain level of skill, can hold a job and have no criminal record. Chryco has fought certain elements of this for years trying to get into the US and become a citizen. My brother-in-law had to show the immigration officials he would not be a drain on the system once he moved here and only after several years of red tape he finally became a US citizen. I'm not sure what you mean by "undesirable cultural backgrounds" but the standards for legal immigration into the US are not low as it relates to character.

[Todd Wilson]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?179317-Mexicos-Army-finds-Zetas-cartel-training-camp-large-weapons-cache&p=4940713#post4940713

[Todd Wilson]

You and Troy are assuming that those people ruining neighborhoods are illegals. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. And those "anchor babies" are US Citizens like you and me, whether you like it or not. At that point, then the problem isn't necessarily with them being illegal but with them being "those people" (ie. them mexicans).


[/quote]

Theres probably a pretty good chance they are here illegally. You said it yourself that the legal process takes a long time and lots of money to do!  These houses I speak of are everywhere around here.


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

 our modern-era strict immigration policies have essentially outlawed something that was historically normal for the country.

I have relatives that have been trying to come here legally for years, but the process is entirely too complicated or cost prohibitive.

Why dont you just have em come on over. This would be fine wouldnt it? Maybe they could have a kid  and then be able to stay.


Todd

[Todd Wilson]

We had a chinese dude in our ham radio club who has since moved away. This guy was a really neat guy to talk to. He came over to the USA the right way. Got his citizen ship.  He was a very greatful person for all that he had here in the states and the things he could do here. He had a family.  He spoke chinese and he spoke english.  He talked about all the BS over in china that himself and family had to go thru for all kinds of things.  Not once did he speak chinese to anyone and expect them to speak it back.  He didnt come over here and want to force the american people to speak chinese or live like the POS country he just left. He wanted to be an american and do all the things americans do. Take the opportunity given to him for a better life for himself and family.

Thats what immigration is all about and what has made this country so great.


Todd

[hemi68charger]

You and Troy are assuming that those people ruining neighborhoods are illegals. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. And those "anchor babies" are US Citizens like you and me, whether you like it or not. At that point, then the problem isn't necessarily with them being illegal but with them being "those people" (ie. them mexicans).

OK, ya don't get it..... I'm not making any assumptions.. I'm old enough to know better.... Call them what you will, I think of myself as an open-minded individual with an appreciation for different cultures and peoples. But, don't bring negative traits over here.. It's generations of people.... There are two issues I'm talking about. First, there's the illegal thing, cut and dry...... Then there's the negative consequences of certain people, i.e crime, hostage taking, murder, etc... it's a social condition that has crossed the border and I'm tired of it..... "Those Mexicans", you words, not mine. I've been down the road of cultural diversification and acceptance.. It's cornerstone of my civilian employer and the military. If you have no problem with it, then by all means, invest your life into a house and area and watch it fall apart around you. Feel comfortable your tax dollars are being wasted.... It ticks me off to no end to know that the State of Texas will facilitate an illegal resident to pay In-state tuition at college whereas I or my mother can't get a darn dime to help her with her dementia; a person who was born here to legal residents (grandma and grandpa), paid local, state and federal taxes/social security her whole life... I have no sympathy for the "broken" families when Mom and Dad come over here for the soul reason to give birth to their child on US soil... If one thinks it doesn't happen, ya'll need to pull your head out of the sand......

So, to all those who feel they can manipulate the system without giving back to the society they take from, a real big, "You're welcome"...... I'll put my life on the line, fight the nation's wars to protect the very Constitution you feel so obliged to take advantage of.... I could go a lifetime without seeing another Mexican flag being waved in protest here in the States (Oh, wait, our country allows that, but Mexico doesn't)

[RD]

The government in the U.S. is powerless to stop this shit.. no I take that back, they dont give a shit because the corporations who pay for their campaigns tell them not to give a shit, but ultimately its the U.S. taxpayer who get it in the azz.

[bull]

The government in the U.S. is powerless to stop this shit.. no I take that back, they dont give a shit because the corporations who pay for their campaigns tell them not to give a shit, but ultimately its the U.S. taxpayer who get it in the azz.

Well, until they figure out a good way to throw elections we can still send them packing.

[hemi68charger]

The government in the U.S. is powerless to stop this shit.. no I take that back, they dont give a shit because the corporations who pay for their campaigns tell them not to give a shit, but ultimately its the U.S. taxpayer who get it in the azz.

Well, until they figure out a good way to throw elections we can still send them packing.

Yeap,, If there's a loud enough voice, they will listen. I hate to say this, but the voices of those that support illegal immigration, amnesty or "looking the other way" are louder for the most part than those who wish to have laws enforced, bad juju stay out and tax dollars not misallocated....  Soooo, ya'll have to write your Congressional representatives..........

[RD]

from associated press:

Almost twice as many people support it (AZ law) as those who oppose it , according to an Associated Press-GfK poll this month. It found that 42 percent favored it, 24 percent opposed it and another 29 percent said they were neutral.

[hemi68charger]

from associated press:

Almost twice as many people support it (AZ law) as those who oppose it , according to an Associated Press-GfK poll this month. It found that 42 percent favored it, 24 percent opposed it and another 29 percent said they were neutral.

Now, if the people who support it would go one step further and communicate that with their representatives. It's one thing to have popular opinion via a poll by the media, but it's another when constituents call the office...... 

[Bob]

  

Mexico's Calderon takes his case to Capitol Hill
By BEN FELLER (AP) – 1 hour ago

WASHINGTON — Mexican President Felipe Calderon is taking his case for a fair and orderly overhaul of U.S. immigration policies to the people who can do something about it: members of Congress.

One day after private meetings with President Barack Obama and White House celebrations in his honor, Calderon pivots Thursday to Capitol Hill. He is addressing a joint meeting of Congress, where he is expected to push for immigration changes and emphasize the economic priorities linking the U.S. and Mexico.

Calderon's state visit comes at a time of renewed furor over the flawed immigration system from Mexico into the United States. From border security troubles to questions about how to deal with the millions of illegal migrants living in the U.S., the immigration debate remains politically vexing, frustrating and volatile.

Obama is lobbying lawmakers to get moving on legislation that would seek to deal with the security, employment and citizenship issues all at once. But he concedes he doesn't yet have the Republican support he would need to get such a complex deal done. Whether any progress will happen this year is unclear.

Stoking the matter is a new law approved by Arizona lawmakers and set to take effect July 29 unless derailed by legal challenges. It requires police, in the context of enforcing other laws, to question people about their immigration status if there's reason to suspect they are in the country illegally.

Calderon calls that discriminatory, and Obama agrees the Arizona law could well be applied that way. He has ordered a Justice Department review.

"A prosperous North America that benefits both Americans and Mexicans is only feasible if we work shoulder to shoulder and if we confront these challenges decisively and courageously," Calderon said at the White House on Wednesday, pushing for cooperation on the economy, immigration and security.

[Ghoste]

And you can be certain that Calderon of course intends to ensure that his country will enact reciprocal legislation with all of the same rights and guarantees that he expects for people coming to the US.  Not that that anyone would want to move there.

I should stress that I really have no place commenting on the issue one way or the other but it seems to me like this has largely become a case of amnesty more than anything and it irks me to see a group of people protest any nation by waving the flag of their old nation.  Pick one and stick with it.

[hemi68charger]

Pick one and stick with it.

... and if it isn't "Old Glory", then go back to the country you're waving.......  

Man, that's pretty simple...........

[RD]

from associated press:

Almost twice as many people support it (AZ law) as those who oppose it , according to an Associated Press-GfK poll this month. It found that 42 percent favored it, 24 percent opposed it and another 29 percent said they were neutral.

Now, if the people who support it would go one step further and communicate that with their representatives. It's one thing to have popular opinion via a poll by the media, but it's another when constituents call the office...... 

count me in!

[bull]

One thing that's very scary to me is that we've spend 14 pages debating something that everyone knows is common sense. Everyone knows that when you move to another country that you can and should learn the common language there for the good of yourself and the people who live there. Why is it even a question? Why is there a debate? It's very telling about the state of the mentality and ethics of the US right now.