In America it's English, learn it.

[Ponch ®]

The Netherlands;
1. Were not established by, or for, immigration as was the U.S.
2. Have a very small population which is easy to dilute.

 Everyone comes from somewhere......... They just did it centuries before........... lol

Holland's population denisty is MUCH higher than ours, and that's what counts.. it's called being crowded... Immigration is a large part of the reason why the surge has happened there along with longer life spans and increasing birth rates ( originating from the immigrate population)

The US wasn't established for the sole reason of immigration (religious freedom against the Church of England). But, to use your argument, they all came here from different backgrounds and they ALL blended in into one society, one culture and one language. The Dutch of Penn. don't speak Dutch.

As the great Teddy Roosevelt said,

"In the first place we should insist that the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equity with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming an American and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any flag of a nation to which we are hostile. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people." Theodore Roosevelt in a letter to the American Defense Society in 1919.

"Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or to leave the country," he said in a statement to the Kansas City Star in 1918. "English should be the only language taught or used in the public schools."

Even he knew at the beginning of the 20th century there would be problems here in the US with self-segregation and the lack of assimilation.

Then again, this type of "OMG...the ____ are taking over and soon we're gonna be screwed" fear mongering has been around for a long time. Just ask ol Ben Franklin:

"And since Detachments of English from Britain sent to America, will have their Places at Home so soon supply'd and increase so largely here; why should the Palatine Boors [Germans] be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the Exclusion of ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion." (Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, 1751)."

Things turned out pretty well in the end...

[hemi68charger]

Things turned out pretty well in the end...

Yes, the country turned out pretty darn well.. I agree with you. But what was good then, doesn't mean it's good now.. But again, there was one unifying presence, everyone assimilated into this experiment called America. That was a different time, the country didn't have cities and States on the brink of bankruptcy, there wasn't a Welfare system, schools didn't have to cater to the children of "undocumented worker" (by law here, all children are supposed to go to school and everyone foots the bill). It's one thing when situations like this become a financial burden on the State (look at California), but to add insult to injury, those very people who are taking advantage of the porous borders to meek out a living for themselves and family, refuse to learn the culture where they come to. (please, don't give me the excuse of there's not enough time in the day, they knew it would be hard when THEY made to decision to cross the border). I in no way am painting a stereotype here. There are 100 of thousands of immigrants who enter legally and foot their own bill. I find it wrong that colleagues of mine here at my office have to leave the US after 7 or so years because their work visas expired. They do the right thing, go back to their homeland. All the while, you have people living under shadows and covertly staying here forever, eventually having children, who in turn become citizens, then their parents get nationalized, etc....  the cycle continues...

I have done my part and still do to this very day to serve my country without reservation. I can't stand the fact that I took an oath to help uphold and defend the laws of the land and the US Constitution and all the while, the people who are supposed to represent me turn a blind eye to the reality of law-breaking actions. They have their reasons and it usually boils down to either votes or money.......  Forget about integrity, honor and just doing what's right under the law......

I'm all for living and working to get a better life.. The energy spent should make go to the homeland where they come from and rid the political situation that's causing them to want to leave their homeland in the first place........  Instead of running away from the problem, fix it........

Troy >> agreeing to disagree....... 

[RD]

we have two camps here, one that believes in the humanitarianism of the US in regards to immigration without fault or plausible deniability, and those that feel each immigrant has individual responsibilities to the country in which they are immigrating to (albeit legally or illegally).

I chose the individual responsibilities aspect of the two.  If you believe the US is here to cater to all individuals based upon their own apathetic conditions, environment, and status; then you are stating that it is okay for them to be criminals, put a drain on the taxpayer, create economic hardships for businesses that provide social services, and be a direct cause to increase the size of government (of which is not a good thing in many's eyes, not just conservatives).  I will call a jack a jack, that is the truth plain and simple.  The current situation is the current situation.  No amount of history dredging will take away from the fact that we should ALL be united under one common purpose, loyalty, and language.  That has been the rule for over 200 years.

If ya dont like it, change the law.

[hemi68charger]

If ya dont like it, change the law.

Here here...

And, it can be done........... I know... I have legislation that was introduced to the Texas Congress and the idea went from bill to Law......... Mexico City and Brazil have a very high number of millionaires, maybe it's time for people of those lands to start social change... Seems Brazil's on its way with the country's newest President.......

[elacruze]

If ya dont like it, change the law.

And that, friends, is where every Political discussion must end if it ends with reason. 

[Ponch ®]

If ya dont like it, change the law.

And that, friends, is where every Political discussion must end if it ends with reason. 

well, this thread is the rare occurrence (at least so far) in which people have a discussion/debate about controversial issues without resorting to name calling and personal attacks. 

[hemi68charger]

If ya dont like it, change the law.

And that, friends, is where every Political discussion must end if it ends with reason. 

well, this thread is the rare occurrence (at least so far) in which people have a discussion/debate about controversial issues without resorting to name calling and personal attacks. 

Who are you calling a nice guy !!!!!     >>>>  really.......... >>>>> 

[moparstuart]

If ya dont like it, change the law.

And that, friends, is where every Political discussion must end if it ends with reason. 

well, this thread is the rare occurrence (at least so far) in which people have a discussion/debate about controversial issues without resorting to name calling and personal attacks. 

damit 

[hemi68charger]

I think I'm going to run for Congress........   

[mauve66]

nobody said you can't talk in your native tongue,
its just the we shouldn't spend billions printing documents in multiple languages (people who shouldn't drive already get around that, language doesn't matter),
we shouldn't spend millions providing special spanish only classes 'cause they don't know any english (how will they learn if they are only taught in spanish?),
yes every city has a little havana, little tokyo, little seoul, everyone is entitled to their heritage
but this is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA don't wave another countries flag around demanding more respect, GO LIVE IN THAT COUNTRY since you love it so much
you don't see irish immigrants waving the irish flag on st patricks day, we don't care about the country we just want to get drunk on green beer dammit

[RD]

you don't see irish immigrants waving the irish flag on st patricks day, we don't care about the country we just want to get drunk on green beer dammit

 

[dkn1997]

If ya dont like it, change the law.

And that, friends, is where every Political discussion must end if it ends with reason. 

well, this thread is the rare occurrence (at least so far) in which people have a discussion/debate about controversial issues without resorting to name calling and personal attacks. 

screw you, ballbag!   

the real problem putting stuff in multiple languages:  zero motivation to learn the language that's primarily spoken in the country you live in.  I don't think that every immigrant who came here in the early 20th century that learned English did so just because it seemed fun or cute.  It was survival.  It was the gateway to the American Dream. 

I notice that when I was a kid, it was mostly old farts that didn't speak the English.  Now I see a lot of guys in their 20's who can't also.  I also found out that a hell of a lot of them don't even know their native language that well.  Then I was told that many come here with no more than an elementary level of education.  That part is hard.  It's like they have to learn their own language first, then learn a new one.

what was I saying?  oh yeah, ponch is still a ballbag!

[Ponch ®]

what was I saying?  oh yeah, ponch is still a ballbag!

oh yeah? you should become a sex therapist...that way I can call you when I want to hear your f---g opinion...

[RD]

lol, you guys crack me up.

[dkn1997]

what was I saying?  oh yeah, ponch is still a ballbag!

oh yeah? you should become a sex therapist...that way I can call you when I want to hear your f---g opinion...

I expected no less from you 

[RD]

ok, i may stir the pot here, but you have to admire Americans (of US descent for "Nacho") and their way to twist or define a word to make it sound less criminal.

I guess being referred to as "undocumented resident" makes you not a criminal, but if you are labeled "illegal" clearly you are breaking the law but should not be punished for it.  Some days, I sincerely want to say to hell with this country.  Those that are illegal aliens are now the victims of hate-laws and discrimination, BUT PLEASE... do not take into consideration that they knew they were wrong when they chose to circumvent the immigration policy and break the law.  If you enter a country illegally, what makes anyone think you do not have the capability or wherewithal to break more laws?  After all, you started in this country on a lie and with a bad precedent right?

If I was a immigrant going through the procedure to become a citizen, I think I would be the most pissed off at the illegals.  It is kind of a slap in the face.  Its pretty much a F you from the illegals.  They are protesting and marching in the streets to put forth a opinion under the guise of the first amendment (which has no bearing for those that are NOT citizens).  Their blatant outcry to demand rights they do not deserve tells those that are trying to gain those rights that all their work doesn't mean shit.  "See, you can exercise the freedom and rights of citizens and not be a citizen.  Isn't this country grand? You should be like us and just give this country the big middle finger because we don't give a shit about it, just as long as we get what we want."

this may cause a stink, and maybe I am tired, but I think everyone has lost sight of the real picture here.  It IS black and white.  If you are not here legally, you are breaking the law.  If you break the law, you should be apprehended.  If you are apprehended, you should be deported to the country of your origin.  Would you expect any other country to treat you with the same bogus politically correct bullshit that you see happen here in the U.S. to illegal (errr sorry) undocumented residents?  If you think they will.. go to Russia without a passport or legality.  You may leave quickly or stay a long time in Siberia.  I hear the winters are wonderful.

My question is this, if they truly did not thing they were in the wrong, then why such the big protest across the land?  If you have nothing to hide and are here legally, why do you care if you get asked to prove your citizenship?  If you are in the right, then you have nothing to worry about, right?  This is a classic case of people who see themselves as "possible" victims are duped into a frenzy of politically correct idiocy that is solely directed to cure the ills of the minority.  Whatever happened to the majority is right?

[Ghoste]

Yeah, it sometimes makes you wonder if we would be having this debate at all if the border patrol were authorized to use lethal force on anyone they see climbing the fences or wading the rivers to get in.   

[Ponch ®]

Yeah, it sometimes makes you wonder if we would be having this debate at all if the border patrol were authorized to use lethal force on anyone they see climbing the fences or wading the rivers to get in.  

this gets all of my leftie friends (which is 90% of them) in a frenzy, but I actually sometimes say "just shoot them at the border"

RD - I hear your argument a lot and I understand the point about illegal = breaking the law. That's true and I have no problem with that reasoning. But I don't know if I'd go as far as calling them criminals - at least in the sense that rapist is a criminal, a pedophile is a criminal, or a guy doing inside trading is a criminal. It's true that some of those illegals are criminals by that definition as well, but the majority of them are just people who want to earn a buck. Think of it this way - a lot of the things that are (or aren't  ) on my car are considered "illegal" or not compliant with the law....but does that make me a "criminal"?

Now, the problem with aprehending all the illegals and deporting them is that how do you know who's illegal and who isnt? Nowadays if someone is arrested and has no documents, he/she is probably going to get deported - which is fine, they did something to get themselves arrested in the 1st place. But there's no way to go around arresting or questioning people just because they're suspected to be illegal. That's my problem with this AZ law. I'm an American, born and raised in the USA...but if I'm out there and I run a stop sign and I get pulled over, theoretically the cop / law enforcement can ask me if I have papers if they "suspect" I'm illegal. Why should I be subjected to that humiliation, based ONLY on my appearance and my last name? Does everybody with brown skin and a non english name need to carry a badge that says "hey, i'm legal"? That's some 1930's Germany shit right there bro...and I personally find that we (as a country) are sinking to that level far, far scarier than some illegal dude selling oranges on a street corner. Just something to ponder...

[bull]

If I was a immigrant going through the procedure to become a citizen, I think I would be the most pissed off at the illegals.  It is kind of a slap in the face.  Its pretty much a F you from the illegals.

Not a perfect example of what you're talking about but a decent one: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/30/arizona.hispanics.immigration/index.html

"There used to be a level of dignity and self-respect. They were hard-working people who wanted to contribute to American society because it was better than where they came from," says Gaines, a petite woman in her 70s. "But our government has been giving them handouts for so long that now they expect them."

[RD]

good article bull, its nice to see that those with hispanic roots, but are U.S. citizens, are standing up for what is right, even though they are "traidora" i.e traitors in the eyes of those who are illegal or illegal sympathizers.

"If I entered another country illegally I'd go to jail, yet they're demanding better treatment than their government would give us," she says.

"Many of these families were having one child after another just to earn a paycheck from the U.S. government and they didn't care about their children's education," says Gaines, the controversial founder of American Citizens United, a grass-roots organization known for its extreme views on immigration enforcement. "They didn't want to contribute, just take."

"There used to be a level of dignity and self-respect. They were hard-working people who wanted to contribute to American society because it was better than where they came from," says Gaines, a petite woman in her 70s. "But our government has been giving them handouts for so long that now they expect them."

"We as Americans have the right to defend this country's laws. There's nothing racist about protecting the country," she says.

[RD]

Yeah, it sometimes makes you wonder if we would be having this debate at all if the border patrol were authorized to use lethal force on anyone they see climbing the fences or wading the rivers to get in.  

this gets all of my leftie friends (which is 90% of them) in a frenzy, but I actually sometimes say "just shoot them at the border"

RD - I hear your argument a lot and I understand the point about illegal = breaking the law. That's true and I have no problem with that reasoning. But I don't know if I'd go as far as calling them criminals - at least in the sense that rapist is a criminal, a pedophile is a criminal, or a guy doing inside trading is a criminal. It's true that some of those illegals are criminals by that definition as well, but the majority of them are just people who want to earn a buck. Think of it this way - a lot of the things that are (or aren't  ) on my car are considered "illegal" or not compliant with the law....but does that make me a "criminal"?

Yes, technically you are a criminal, but the punishment for your crimes will not be deportation, but rather a traffic violation.  Your time, will fit the crime.

Now, the problem with aprehending all the illegals and deporting them is that how do you know who's illegal and who isnt?

They will have a state issued ID or driver's license.  If they dont have it, then yes, I agree with deportation for that is the right time to fit the crime.

Nowadays if someone is arrested and has no documents, he/she is probably going to get deported - which is fine, they did something to get themselves arrested in the 1st place. But there's no way to go around arresting or questioning people just because they're suspected to be illegal.

If you are doing nothing wrong, I am sure the police will not just pull you over to check your immigration status.  If they did that, they would not be able to address the larger criminal activity that is being accomplished. I can see cops pulling someone over for registration out of date, walking late at night with a nightcoat on in a known drug neighborhood, meeting the description of a known felon who committed a crime and has an APB on him/her, etc etc and the list goes on.  There are many reasons why police stop people to question them, NOT just about immigration status.  If you have proper ID, then the only way you will feel like a victim is if you choose to.  If you are legal, then you have nothing to fear.  If you are illegal, then I hope the U.S. door hits you in your arse really hard as you cross the border back to THEIR country.  Not mine, theirs.

That's my problem with this AZ law. I'm an American, born and raised in the USA...but if I'm out there and I run a stop sign and I get pulled over, theoretically the cop / law enforcement can ask me if I have papers if they "suspect" I'm illegal. Why should I be subjected to that humiliation, based ONLY on my appearance and my last name? Does everybody with brown skin and a non english name need to carry a badge that says "hey, i'm legal"? That's some 1930's Germany shit right there bro...and I personally find that we (as a country) are sinking to that level far, far scarier than some illegal dude selling oranges on a street corner. Just something to ponder...

if you get pulled over for running a stop sign, then you will automatically be asked to provide a drivers license, insurance and proof of registration.  If you cannot provide any of the three, you will be ticketed.  If you are illegal, you will be ticketed and deported.  So, did the cop pull you over for being brown or because you ran a stop sign.. its because you ran a stop sign. If you are an illegal, the real crime would definitely be your stupidity for breaking the law and allowing you to get pulled over by a cop, thus just securing the U.S. door hitting you squarely in your arse as you are deported.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

for your reading pleasure:

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

[Ponch ®]

Yeah, it sometimes makes you wonder if we would be having this debate at all if the border patrol were authorized to use lethal force on anyone they see climbing the fences or wading the rivers to get in.  

this gets all of my leftie friends (which is 90% of them) in a frenzy, but I actually sometimes say "just shoot them at the border"

RD - I hear your argument a lot and I understand the point about illegal = breaking the law. That's true and I have no problem with that reasoning. But I don't know if I'd go as far as calling them criminals - at least in the sense that rapist is a criminal, a pedophile is a criminal, or a guy doing inside trading is a criminal. It's true that some of those illegals are criminals by that definition as well, but the majority of them are just people who want to earn a buck. Think of it this way - a lot of the things that are (or aren't  ) on my car are considered "illegal" or not compliant with the law....but does that make me a "criminal"?

Yes, technically you are a criminal, but the punishment for your crimes will not be deportation, but rather a traffic violation.  Your time, will fit the crime.

Now, the problem with aprehending all the illegals and deporting them is that how do you know who's illegal and who isnt?

They will have a state issued ID or driver's license.  If they dont have it, then yes, I agree with deportation for that is the right time to fit the crime.

Nowadays if someone is arrested and has no documents, he/she is probably going to get deported - which is fine, they did something to get themselves arrested in the 1st place. But there's no way to go around arresting or questioning people just because they're suspected to be illegal.

If you are doing nothing wrong, I am sure the police will not just pull you over to check your immigration status.  If they did that, they would not be able to address the larger criminal activity that is being accomplished. I can see cops pulling someone over for registration out of date, walking late at night with a nightcoat on in a known drug neighborhood, meeting the description of a known felon who committed a crime and has an APB on him/her, etc etc and the list goes on.  There are many reasons why police stop people to question them, NOT just about immigration status.  If you have proper ID, then the only way you will feel like a victim is if you choose to.  If you are legal, then you have nothing to fear.  If you are illegal, then I hope the U.S. door hits you in your arse really hard as you cross the border back to THEIR country.  Not mine, theirs.

That's my problem with this AZ law. I'm an American, born and raised in the USA...but if I'm out there and I run a stop sign and I get pulled over, theoretically the cop / law enforcement can ask me if I have papers if they "suspect" I'm illegal. Why should I be subjected to that humiliation, based ONLY on my appearance and my last name? Does everybody with brown skin and a non english name need to carry a badge that says "hey, i'm legal"? That's some 1930's Germany shit right there bro...and I personally find that we (as a country) are sinking to that level far, far scarier than some illegal dude selling oranges on a street corner. Just something to ponder...

if you get pulled over for running a stop sign, then you will automatically be asked to provide a drivers license, insurance and proof of registration.  If you cannot provide any of the three, you will be ticketed.  If you are illegal, you will be ticketed and deported.  So, did the cop pull you over for being brown or because you ran a stop sign.. its because you ran a stop sign. If you are an illegal, the real crime would definitely be your stupidity for breaking the law and allowing you to get pulled over by a cop, thus just securing the U.S. door hitting you squarely in your arse as you are deported.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

for your reading pleasure:

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

See, this is one of those deals where in theory everything you say is true...but I have to pull the "personal experience" card. Now, I'm not some whiny "the white man is out to get me" type, but I can tell you that there have been two occasions where I've been pulled over for what I suspect was no other reason than just "check me out". Every other time I've been pulled over a) I already knew that I'd screwed up (speeding, stop sign..etc) and b) the cop would come up to the car, do the "you know why I pulled you over? You were _____", then ask for my license and registration, check them out, give me my warning or ticket and then let me go. Now, when I got pulled over, had the cop come to my car, ask me for ID/ins./registration, ask me if I have any weapons or drugs in the car, have me get out...then after running my license and finding it clean, taking 20 minutes to tell me why they pulled me over: my exhaust was too loud. Funny, since when they first spotted me I wasn't on the gas  - so no exhaust noise - and they were nowhere near enough to have heard it anyway before they pulled me over. That similar scenario happened one other time (tinted front windows...again..funny because they were rolled down when I got pulled over and they didn't ask me to roll them up until after I'd been questioned and produced my paperwork). I don't know, maybe I read too much into those experiences, but all things being equal.... I took those two experiences in stride because at worst they were a waste of my time, but you get the idea.

Asking for proper ID doesn't do much. Unfortunately some states (including CA) still issue ID's/license to illegals, and if not, they probably already have a fake or legit but crooked one. Besides, there are many people other than illegals driving around without a license or ID. If a white guy (who, for the sake of argument, could be a Canadian illegal) gets caught w/out a drivers license or ID...do you think they're going to ask him for proof of citizenship or legal residence? No. Again, why should the American guy of Hispanic origin be subjected to that? Hey, if it makes it far enough thriugh the legal system where it comes up that he/she is illegal, that's one thing. But are we really leaving it up to the individual cop/LOE to make the decision on the spot that the guy is a suspected illegal? What is he going to base that on? At what point do we draw the line?

[RD]

If a white guy (who, for the sake of argument, could be a Canadian illegal) gets caught w/out a drivers license or ID...do you think they're going to ask him for proof of citizenship or legal residence? No. Again, why should the American guy of Hispanic origin be subjected to that? Hey, if it makes it far enough thriugh the legal system where it comes up that he/she is illegal, that's one thing. But are we really leaving it up to the individual cop/LOE to make the decision on the spot that the guy is a suspected illegal? What is he going to base that on? At what point do we draw the line?

I sure as hell hope they ask the canadian for documentation, i dont want his ass in this country illegally either.

We leave alot up to the individual peace officer's discretion when it comes to traffic stops.  I would rather have him/her using their judgment on the side of caution rather than submitting to what may allow any illegal criminal activity to gain a threshold within any area of the U.S.

If a individual realizes that their actions or lack of actions will lead to actual punishment (not paper punishment that hold no real enforcement), then by all means let the peace officer use their better judgment to ensure that all individuals, who are suspected to be illegal aliens, are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  There is exactly NO way that any law can please everyone, but as long as it appeases the whole then the law was emplaced for the right reasons.  The commonwealth includes the majority too.  

I will be honest, I am really sick and tired of being considered a racist or a bigot (not by you ponch or anyone on this board, really from the Kansas Dems) for supporting laws that strengthen the enforcement and punishment of illegal immigration.  

I am not perfect, I know this, but I will never wish any person ill will or harm to them if they are in the right.  But, if they are in the wrong, then by damned they better not try and proselytize to me how their wrong is right and my right is wrong.  I really, really hate double speak.

[elacruze]

All the arguments have some validity. Here's something to ponder.

We (the U.S.) intentionally protect illegal immigration.
We (politicians) pander to voters on both sides of the argument.

If we enforce immigration law and deport illegals, we lose cheap labor.
If we gave amnesty and document everyone, we lose cheap labor.
The Tax base doesn't want to lose cheap labor.

Including wages paid to illegals in the national accounting would also shine a little more light on how few people really earn a decent paycheck.

[Ponch ®]

If a individual realizes that their actions or lack of actions will lead to actual punishment (not paper punishment that hold no real enforcement), then by all means let the peace officer use their better judgment to ensure that all individuals, who are suspected to be illegal aliens, are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  

but again...what is a suspected illegal alien? you might say "well Ponch...you speak english, drive a nice car (not to start another 4 door Charger flamefest  )...of course theyre not gonna tag you as an illegal!" But what if I was in a different situation in life,where I was working construction or as a janitor? I will probably look like what you think an illegal alien looks like, but I'm not so I shouldn't have to be subjected to suspicion merely on the basis of my appearance. See, when you do that, you're going against one the most venerable tenets of our legal system - that you're innocent until proven guilty. The moment you start picking people out like that, you're making them guilty until proven innocent.

I'll say this: whether or not someone is an illegal immigrant IS a matter of black and white. But how do you deal with the problem isn't so much...