In America it's English, learn it.

[Ponch ®]

i think the whole crux of this argument is that English is the official language of the United States, voted for by a slim margin over German.  The United States of America should not have to cater to individuals who immigrate to this country by addressing themselves in their native language.  If the individuals immigrate to this country through the appropriate process than they should already know the english language (or a good working form of it) in order to be actively involved in society without worries of misinterpretation of laws, ordinances, or codes.

This goes back to the whole concept of making individuals legal citizens within our country.  This whole advertisement has come about and has been given "teeth" due to the recent Arizona law in regards to illegal immigration.

Either way, it does not mean you are not allowed to speak your native tongue to others.  It does not mean that you are not allowed to learn another language.  It does mean that you should be responsible to learn the basic requirements of any citizen of this country.  Learn English, its the official language.

If we only have a few spanish words, as per ponch, cluttering the roadway, then why discriminate against all the other languages?  Let us have all of them up there.  (I wonder how much that will cost the taxpayers?).

Troy has a very valid point. If we were to travel and reside in a country that speaks other than English, would we expect them to speak our language to us for the rest of our lives?  Or, would we understand it is our responsibility to speak their language?  I know I would learn their language.  

It is at this very principle in which our politically correct and sugarcoating society has sat back and turned a blind eye that will begin the degradation of our ideals.  You stick to your roots and demand a simple and sturdy foundation, or you allow it to crumble.  Solidarity comes through commonality.  Diversity is good, but without a common standard, it will be held together loosely.

I don't think the government should cater to other people's languages either. In a perfect world, everyone would learn english. But for whatever reason or another, some people don't. Take my grandparents, for example  - they came here some time in the 50's (legally, for those of you who will inevitably wonder). They never really learned english - not because they didn't want to, but because they spent almost every waking hour working some shitty job or another, trying to make a better life for their kids. Didn't leave much time for night school.

In the end, the people that don't learn english the only ones who are harmed in the end...so I don't get what the fuzz is all about. If all we're arguing about is a few pieces of paper printed in different languages, then I think we're in pretty good shape. Like I said earlier...go ahead and do it...it's not going to matter because people will find ways around it. I'm sure the staggering amount of money saved will help pay off what we owe to the Chinese.

Travel to any country where there is a sizeable American presence (be it tourists, ex-pats, military, etc) and you bet your red-white-and-blue ass that the natives will at least try to learn basic english. It's good business sense. And that's why a lot of businesses and corporations in the US go out of their way to promote themselves in whatever language. So it's not so much the government as the private sector...and if you're gonna try to tell somebody how to conduct their business, then we're in trouble.

Finally, I don't necessarily see what the illegal immigration debate has to do with this one.

[RECHRGD]

Everyone has good points on this subject.  I'm with Troy on the enabling part.  We spend untold millions, that we can't afford, on bilingual documents (many languages, not just Spanish) and interpreters that only serve to make the learning of English unnecessary.  Bob

[Ponch ®]

Everyone has good points on this subject.  

That's because, like most complex issues like these, there really isn't a clear cut black/white answer and there is some level of validity to both sides of the argument.

[Tilar]

Ok, so now all you Americans will have to go back to school to learn English..lol
and stop dropping letters from words.

Wat u talkin bout willis?

[Mike DC]

     


This language thing is just a specific issue where some people are staking out their turf for the greater battle on immigration/citizenship.



If the borders were ever locked up tightly then the # of people in the USA who cannot speak english would basically stop growing.  The immigrant populations want their kids to be fluent in english just as much as any of us natives do. 



 

[Ponch ®]

     


This language thing is just a specific issue where some people are staking out their turf for the greater battle on immigration/citizenship.



If the borders were ever locked up tightly then the # of people in the USA who cannot speak english would basically stop growing.  The immigrant populations want their kids to be fluent in english just as much as any of us natives do. 



 

Right. What I'm seeing a lot is that now a lot of those "I'm all for immigrants, as long as they're here legally" guys are now saying "I'm all for immigrants, as long as they're here legally and speak english". Next thing it'll be "I'm all for immigrants, as long as they're here legally, and they speak english, and they're not from Latin America or Asia"...and so on...

[Darkman]

This is a good thread. In the land Down Under, the government is now being forced to have Muslim only schools as the normals schools' curriculum "offends" them. All I can say is WTF??? If the Australian culture offends you then F*CK OFF! My family emigrated from Croatia to this fine country when I was a baby (the legal way, after having several initial legal attempts denied). They worked hard to fit in and slowly learned the language. At home we only spoke Croatian and I too only learned english at school. What I learned, I then taught to my parents. Back then (in the 70's) if you wanted to come here, you needed to abide by their rules. But now due to all this human rights crap and activists, the government has lost its power to do anything and are being overun by communities and cultural groups. We also have china towns in most capital cities and when you go in them....not a word of fricken english! Whatever country you go to, you should make an honest attempt to learn and accept the culture, if not, don't go! Don't force your culture on others! If you live in a country that thinks blowing yourself up is good, then stay there and blow yourself up! If you don't like that lifestyle then move and change your lifestyle and don't bring your troubles over here! I know we are a multi cultural society and I have no problems with having other languages on certain signs (shop fronts etc) and people talking in their own language but let's be realistic about it.

Sorry for the rant, but this issue really irks me!

[chargergirl]

Being the second generation American I understand all the discord. On my fathers side my great grandmother immigrated from Cuba, and his father from England. On my mother's side my great grandmother came from Sicily while her husband was from Napoli,  grandfather on that side Scottish and Iriqois. What does that make me...American. I spoke fluent American and Spanish (Castillion) since my abuela, grandmother, but actually my great grandmother, took care of me while my parents worked. I would translate books for her. Her English was not great and I would translate when speaking to other people. We never, NEVER, spoke Spanish in front of others since it was unexcepted, especially then, in public. We spoke only Spanish in private. When I was 6 my mother forbade it be spoke in the house...she still regrets doing that to this day. Every language is a key opening another door. However ALL immigrating to this country are obligated to learn the language of that country. I would not move to another country and expect them to switch to my language. I would hope for tolerance and a sense of humour while I attempt to learn theirs. 2nd gen American with 3 kids serving.

[RD]

Finally, I don't necessarily see what the illegal immigration debate has to do with this one.

I wasnt try to bring that topic up, I was merely stating that this guy running for governor probably wouldnt have had a adverstisement like he did "IF" Arizona didnt just recently pass their new immigration law.  It was snowball, and now many will jump on this bandwagon and let it keep rolling so to say.  Sorry if I was unclear on that Ponch.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Right. What I'm seeing a lot is that now a lot of those "I'm all for immigrants, as long as they're here legally" guys are now saying "I'm all for immigrants, as long as they're here legally and speak english".

well that is a valid expectation since in order to be legal in this country you have to have a working English vocabulary.

Next thing it'll be "I'm all for immigrants, as long as they're here legally, and they speak english, and they're not from Latin America or Asia"...and so on...

will not be from me!  what i stated above is as far as I will go.

[hemi68charger]

Why wouldn't it be placed on the schools? That's what theyre there for. Now, if youre talking about offering bilingual education and all that nonsense...then yeah, I find that unacceptable and unnecessary.

No, I 100% disagree.... It's the school's responsibility to teach proper English, grammar, etc., not to teach them how to talk. That's the responsibility of their parents, period. Most kids learn their language before they even show up to Kindergarten... Here in Houston, a lot of schools have two different areas, Spanish speaking classes and English speaking classes with the hopes that the Spanish speaking children can blend in with the English classes by 3rd grade.. What a waste of money to have two of everything for the first 3 years.... Why oh why can't Spanish speaking parents both teach themselves English and speak it as well at home. All this does is better prepare their children for society here in the States. For those that don't, it's pure laziness or the lack of ambition to assimilate. Government can't not be a crutch........

if one or both don't speak english at all...they don't have much of a choice, do they?

They do have a choice, it's called ESL..

Troy

[RD]

Why wouldn't it be placed on the schools? That's what theyre there for. Now, if youre talking about offering bilingual education and all that nonsense...then yeah, I find that unacceptable and unnecessary.

No, I 100% disagree.... It's the school's responsibility to teach proper English, grammar, etc., not to teach them how to talk. That's the responsibility of their parents, period. Most kids learn their language before they even show up to Kindergarten... Here in Houston, a lot of schools have two different areas, Spanish speaking classes and English speaking classes with the hopes that the Spanish speaking children can blend in with the English classes by 3rd grade.. What a waste of money to have two of everything for the first 3 years.... Why oh why can't Spanish speaking parents both teach themselves English and speak it as well at home. All this does is better prepare their children for society here in the States. For those that don't, it's pure laziness or the lack of ambition to assimilate. Government can't not be a crutch........

if one or both don't speak english at all...they don't have much of a choice, do they?

They do have a choice, it's called ESL..

Troy

TOTALLY AGREE!  It is the school's responsibility to educate, not to teach K-8 grades languages.  That is why foreign languages are an "elective" in high school and not a requirement.

If you cannot speak English when entering school, how can you learn to read and write proper English.  The syntax and sentence construction between English and almost all of the foreign languages are totally 180.  If the children learned English prior to attending school like the majority of all US children, then there would be no need for a huge amount of educational spending that is required at this given time.

Everyone in the US has a choice to learn English.  The issue is this, most are used to the US catering to their English deficit by the means of translators or multi-lingual documentation.  This has caused them to decide that they do NOT have to learn English.  I mean, why would you if we do not demand that they learn it or make it so they have to learn it?

[Mike DC]

    
I actually think the schools do need to deal with the students who cannot speak & read & write english correctly.  (And half of that group never learned any other language first, they're just native english speakers who don't do it well.)

But I should put this in context - this belief is part of my bigger opinion that the entire education system is a total wreck, from kindergarten all the way to graduate school.  IMHO the existing system is so completely wrong for modern needs that even trying to help it is counterproductive.



If we're speaking of whether or not to add basic english teaching onto the jobs of the existing gradeschool system, then I understand it's not a realistic demand.  Not like the system is right now.  They've got too much on their plate as it is.  

[nh_mopar_fan]

"English Immersion" and it's proven to be much more successful in getting children up to speed in English than bilingual classes.

[hemi68charger]

...    
But I should put this in context - this belief is part of my bigger opinion that the entire education system is a total wreck, from kindergarten all the way to graduate school.  IMHO the existing system is so completely wrong for modern needs that even trying to help it is counterproductive.
...

Again, I agree, but that's a completely different potential thread....  

I personally think a foreign language from Junior High through High School should be mandatory, but that's just me. We are a global community. But, the real picture here is basic human need, the need to communicate. I mean, it's almost as important to us as a communal creature, as,,,,, as going to the bathroom. If people who live in the deep rainforest of the Amazon don't have a school, they'll become a mute? Nope, they learn from their parents, family and community.
When someone takes it upon themselves to move here to the States, whether legally or illegally, they shoulder the added responsibility of rearing their children outside of the parents' comfort zone.... When they CHOOSE not to help teach their children English or English themselves, it does put a burden on that society... Period....  I mean, come on.. Simply look around at most governmental agencies at the State to city level, there's English and Spanish.. Someone's got to pay for that duplication..  I wonder how the people of Quebec feel about English speaking people and having duplication of French and English......

Whew.......... debate....... Isn't this a great country? <<< No translation required......

[RD]

I work in the education system, as does my wife.  Let me paint a scenario for you that is a worst case scenario.

you have a developmentally disabled child who grew up in a spanish home (since its the flavor right now). He or She is in 3rd grade but reads spanish at 1st grade level.  His/hers English speaking level is negligible and his/her comprehension of the English language is pre-K.  Will this child, at his/her certain age, be able to maintain the requirements of the NCLB act and continue to progress at a level required to stay with his/her age group?

Why do I ask this? I have a english speaking 3rd grader that is having difficulty doing this and he had English as his primary language.  The hypothetical child would have a job 5 times harder to become fluent in english than if they had english as a primary language in the home from the get go.  I know this. I work with children who are ESL/ELL each day here in Kansas.  I worked with them when I was in my education program in Emporia, Kansas where 62% of the population is hispanic.

"English Immersion" and it's proven to be much more successful in getting children up to speed in English than bilingual classes.

They do work, but the question is this, should we have such a huge need for this type of education if English was indeed required to be learned prior to school?  There will always be that one child that needs ESL/ELL classes, but imagine how much less of a burden it will be on the educational system if the family's that are ESL, or non-English speaking, would learn English or push the learning of English to their family members?

This is not even hitting the concept of how greater the percentage of them succeeding in society to a position greater than that of their peers.  Ponch said it:

In the end, the people that don't learn english [are] the only ones who are harmed in the end.

but he forgot to mention that though there are no physical or mental harm, the economic burden of enabling those that speak other languages to be aware of their surroundings is felt by not only the taxpayer, but by everyone including businesses because of the monetary cost needed to print everything in other languages.

[bull]

Fear is a great motivator but when you coddle people you keep them down; you keep them unmotivated and dependent. Those who refuse to learn the common or official language of any given country when they move there will, as Ponch said, never get ahead. That would be fine if it didn't have a negative impact on all of society, namely a financial impact. Specifically it costs money for a government to cater to those who refuse to learn the common language (as is being done in the US) and therefore it costs taxpayers money. And yet the fact that these people reside in the US means they must be dealt with on some level. So until those people are motivated to become independent through the absence of pandering they will remain a burden to the taxpayers, businesses, society and their own personal progression. Like any sort of help it must be temporary, there must be benchmark improvements and there must be dealines or it will be taken advantage of.

Kudos to those who follow the law and proper procedure when moving here to the US and kudos to those who take it upon themselves to learn a foreign language so as not to be a burden. Unfortunately not everyone is motivated to do that and those are the ones who become a problem.

[Ponch ®]

Why wouldn't it be placed on the schools? That's what theyre there for. Now, if youre talking about offering bilingual education and all that nonsense...then yeah, I find that unacceptable and unnecessary.

No, I 100% disagree.... It's the school's responsibility to teach proper English, grammar, etc., not to teach them how to talk. That's the responsibility of their parents, period. Most kids learn their language before they even show up to Kindergarten... Here in Houston, a lot of schools have two different areas, Spanish speaking classes and English speaking classes with the hopes that the Spanish speaking children can blend in with the English classes by 3rd grade.. What a waste of money to have two of everything for the first 3 years.... Why oh why can't Spanish speaking parents both teach themselves English and speak it as well at home. All this does is better prepare their children for society here in the States. For those that don't, it's pure laziness or the lack of ambition to assimilate. Government can't not be a crutch........

if one or both don't speak english at all...they don't have much of a choice, do they?

They do have a choice, it's called ESL..

Troy

I actually agree about english immersion and how bilingual education is BS. Remember, children learn differently. You can throw a non english speaking 4-5 year old into a pre-school where only english is spoken and he/she will be yapping away in a year or two. I've seen it happen. But like Mike DC said...the education system as a whole is pretty screwed up.

why can't the parents teach themselves English? As I said earlier, sometimes it's just not feasible...if you've been working 12-16 hours a day, first at the clothing factory and later at the chicken plant, you don't have much time or inclination to go home or read a book. It's like when someone here starts crying about how they lost their job and can't find another one due to lack of education/credentials and somebody says "why don't you take your ass back to night school?", the response is usually something like "well, i cant because I have two kids and I have to look for a job and blah blah." Not trying to make excuse or justify it, just saying...it's always easier said than done.

[bull]

I know you weren't addressing me but I'll respond anyway. No one said it was easy but it can be done. If it's worth doing then it should be done and plenty of people have done it. But like I said, when you remove the motivation some people will take advantage and when they do that they become a burden. A person can endure just about any hardship if they know it's temporary and life will improve because of it.

[derailed]

I don't know, i think that for their own sake immigrants SHOULD learn english. They'll go farther in life and in society. But if they can't or won't, that's fine. Let them speak whatever their native language is...they'll be stuck in their crappy below minimum wage jobs forever. But the state shouldn't FORCE them to learn english. Just like it can't force you to go to college and get an advanced degree.

Ponch,, I 100% agree with you on people speaking their native tongue in their homes (doesn't do the children any good though when they are at their developing years and ALL the emphasis on learning English is placed on the schools???)....

Why wouldn't it be placed on the schools? That's what theyre there for. Now, if youre talking about offering bilingual education and all that nonsense...then yeah, I find that unacceptable and unnecessary.

Besides, I think the effects of what language is spoken at home are overstated. Even though my mom speaks english fluently, all that was spoken at home was spanish (during my developmental years) yet it did not affect in any way whatsoever my ability to learn and speak english once I hit school and started socializing w other kids. I see the same thing today with kids and they have no problem whatsoever either. Heck, I have a cousin who was cared for either by my grandma (who only spoke Spanish) or by his paternal grandmother (who only spoke Serbian) until he was 4-5 years old. Yet he speaks perfect English now and probably doesn't even remember a word of the other two languages. Strke that...he does speak a little spanish...atrociously.

I do see where you're coming from when you say that it might seem rude and uncourteous to have a conversation in another language in front of others who don't know it. I try to avoid doing that as much as I can, but sometimes I just have to speak spanish to someone for whatever reason. But still...besides that, there is no other reason why people shouldn't be able to converse in their own language without some asshole butting in and telling them to speak english...esp. if one or both don't speak english at all...they don't have much of a choice, do they?

For what it's worth, I think we are visually cluttered with way too many things anyway (advertisements, billboards, "In loving memory of Dale Earnhardt" decals in the back of pickup trucks, tacky t-shirts, bumperstickers, fast food signs, gaudy street signs, brightly colored green/purple/pink cars and so on), so a few spanish words here and there should be the least bothersome of the clutter.

Right on man 

[451-74Charger]

Look at the Dutch,
I am told by a dutch friend that it is now a requirement in Holland due to the overwhelming immigration issues that all immigrant MUST learn Dutch.
I learned 3 languages in school and have never used them outside of the classroom.

[elacruze]

Look at the Dutch,
I am told by a dutch friend that it is now a requirement in Holland due to the overwhelming immigration issues that all immigrant MUST learn Dutch.
I learned 3 languages in school and have never used them outside of the classroom.

The Netherlands;
1. Were not established by, or for, immigration as was the U.S.
2. Have a very small population which is easy to dilute.

I learned French, Spanish, and German.
I lived in Miami. Spanish.
With French-Canadians. French.
I worked at an RV rental business who catered to Germans. German.

[hemi68charger]

The Netherlands;
1. Were not established by, or for, immigration as was the U.S.
2. Have a very small population which is easy to dilute.

 Everyone comes from somewhere......... They just did it centuries before........... lol

Holland's population denisty is MUCH higher than ours, and that's what counts.. it's called being crowded... Immigration is a large part of the reason why the surge has happened there along with longer life spans and increasing birth rates ( originating from the immigrate population)

The US wasn't established for the sole reason of immigration (religious freedom against the Church of England). But, to use your argument, they all came here from different backgrounds and they ALL blended in into one society, one culture and one language. The Dutch of Penn. don't speak Dutch.

As the great Teddy Roosevelt said,

"In the first place we should insist that the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equity with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming an American and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any flag of a nation to which we are hostile. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people." Theodore Roosevelt in a letter to the American Defense Society in 1919.

"Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or to leave the country," he said in a statement to the Kansas City Star in 1918. "English should be the only language taught or used in the public schools."

Even he knew at the beginning of the 20th century there would be problems here in the US with self-segregation and the lack of assimilation.

[Nacho-RT74]

as stated lot of valid points and nice to get a good discussion, but JUST a detail I think we should be agreed. The use of the arguments like that on a political campaign or on they way did said, is WRONG. Sounds racist.

[hemi68charger]

as stated lot of valid points and nice to get a good discussion, but JUST a detail I think we should be agreed. The use of the arguments like that on a political campaign or on they way did said, is WRONG. Sounds racist.

Nacho... What are you referencing? Usually political campaigns are a platform for a segment of society to voice their issues... And of course, there's always the other side of the coin in political viewpoint. Sometimes issues just can't be sugar-coated.......  They are what they are......

Troy

[elacruze]

The Netherlands;
1. Were not established by, or for, immigration as was the U.S.
2. Have a very small population which is easy to dilute.

 Everyone comes from somewhere......... They just did it centuries before........... lol

Holland's population denisty is MUCH higher than ours, and that's what counts.. it's called being crowded... Immigration is a large part of the reason why the surge has happened there along with longer life spans and increasing birth rates ( originating from the immigrate population)

The US wasn't established for the sole reason of immigration (religious freedom against the Church of England). But, to use your argument, they all came here from different backgrounds and they ALL blended in into one society, one culture and one language. The Dutch of Penn. don't speak Dutch.

As the great Teddy Roosevelt said,

"In the first place we should insist that the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equity with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming an American and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any flag of a nation to which we are hostile. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people." Theodore Roosevelt in a letter to the American Defense Society in 1919.

"Every immigrant who comes here should be required within five years to learn English or to leave the country," he said in a statement to the Kansas City Star in 1918. "English should be the only language taught or used in the public schools."

Even he knew at the beginning of the 20th century there would be problems here in the US with self-segregation and the lack of assimilation.

I love that 'Everybody came from somewhere long ago' bit. We're talking about governments, not the migration of Neanderthals. Let's not get into the details of why people make this poor substitute for a relevant argument.

The population of the Netherlands was 16,445,593 in 2008.
The population of the U.S. was 303,824,640 in 2008.
That's 18x more people in the U.S. than in the Netherlands. They're easier to dilute.
Besides all that, it's not an issue of crowding. It's an issue of culture. Hong Kong is the most crowded city on the planet-but they aren't crying about immigration are they?

The Pennsylvania Dutch don't exist. They are ethnic Germans. The German word for German is 'Deutch' (pronounced 'doych'). English speakers bastardized the word.

As far as Roosevelt goes, and everyone else who made similar statements; They were stating an ideal, one which was intended to exist in the U.S. from the beginning but failed as soon as the first Catholic entered the country.
Then the Irish. Then the Germans. Then the Chinese. Then the Jews. Then the Mexicans, and Central Americans, and anybody else who was not White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

I'm all for people carrying the U.S. flag. Do you display the Flag of the State of Texas anywhere in your home or on your car?

Just sayin'. I'm done here.