Roller Camshaft

[BBKNARF]

Tough question I guess, what is the life spand on a solid street/strip roller camshaft and lifters is it the same as a hydraulic camshaft ?

[Cooter]

Not too awefully sure what your asking, but will give it a try...
A Roller cam and lifters in theory, and a perfect world, should last indefinately if the oil is changed reg.
a standard Flat Tappet Hydaulic Cam is different as the Lifter rides right on the camshaft...Roller cams and Flat tappet cams are different..As well as Hydraulic Roller cams and Solid lifter Roller cams are different..

Basically, there are four types of camshafts..
1. Hydraulic Flat Tappet
2. Hydraulic Roller
3. Solid Flat Tappet
4. Solid Roller

[oldschool]

it depends on spring presure and like cooter said,clean oil. saying that,i just rebuilt a 500" motor.it was 13 years old.i reused the solid roller cam,and had my comp roller lifters rebuilt,and reused them too. i have alot of spring pressure too. what wears out more for me,are the valve springs.

[John_Kunkel]

I think the OP is asking if there is a difference in life expectancy between a solid roller and a hydraulic roller setup if all else is the same.

In theory there shouldn't be because, once pumped up, a hydraulic roller tappet is solid. (oil doesn't compress)

[flyinlow]

My wife's Bonneville with its 3.8 L has 150K miles on it .Runs great. I expect to get 1/4 million miles out of it. 220 Hp ,6000 rpm redline.

My 446 makes a little more power per liter, a 6000 rpm redline, with its OD trans turns 2000 rpm at 70 mph. Why cant I put a hydraulic roller cam in it a drive it 250,000 mile ?

[375instroke]

OEM rollers can't compare.  Retrofit rollers, or whatever they are called, that one would install in a motor that wasn't made for one, is totally different.  Retrofit rollers, probably due to the cost, are almost always made in large sizes, with very fast ramps, requiring very heavy springs.  The cams last, but the rollers don't.  You also have to deal with the distributor drive and fuel pump rod.

[BBKNARF]

Thanks for the imput, the reason why I'm asking I was talking to a guy about camshafts, which one is the best performance on the street and track, he recconmended the solid roller, but the only draw back was you have to adjust the valve lash once in a while and they wear down a little faster then a normal flat tappet camshaft because they are made from a differant material  
that's why when you install a solid roller cam you should also install a bronze distributor/oil pump shaft.

[flyinlow]

Never had the cam out of a late model car that has a factory roller cam. Are the cam base circle and lobes larger diameter? Are the rollers on the lifters wider or bigger diameter than what is avialable for use in our old engines?
I read that the 5.7 Hemi has its cam higher up in the block ,but the camshaft dose not look that much different than the came in a 440 except for the lobe shape. I have seen Late model Hemis and corvette engines with high milage that have never had their lifters replaced.

[BSB67]

It not the camshaft wear, its valvetrain wear.  It's because hp solid roller usually require much higher spring pressures AND accelerate the valves faster generating far greater loads on all of the valve train parts, causing them to wear and the lash to open up over time.  Depending on the specifics of the grind and spring pressures, you can go quite awhile without having to adjust lash on some solid rollers. 

[firefighter3931]

With a solid roller i would be inspecting the lifters and valvesprings at 3000 miles. The lifters will probably need a rebuild and you might need to replace the valvesprings. Increased loads wear parts out, just the nature of the beast with a solid roller 


Ron

[flyinlow]

With a solid roller i would be inspecting the lifters and valvesprings at 3000 miles. The lifters will probably need a rebuild and you might need to replace the valvesprings. Increased loads wear parts out, just the nature of the beast with a solid roller 


Ron

Ron, is it just the higher spring preasure? Does the lash take -up with a solid lifter cam make them wear faster?

[Challenger340]

Roller Cams are NOT all the same !
Hydraulic Rollers, "Street" Solid Rollers, and Solid Rollers(Race), can get very confusing.

VERY important to understand the differences, to understand the "Longevity" of each, and as it relates to the POWER produced by each ?

For a VERY simplistic means of Explanation, and I mean a SIMPLE way of relating POWER to LONGEVITY here, merely for a quick explanation, NO WARS WANTED.
The FASTER you can WHACK the Valve open, and FASTER you can maintain Cam contact and get it CLOSED, the MORE Power it makes !

Look at the Seat Pressure of the Valve Spring Req'd for a particular Camshaft ?
Pretty self explanatory at that point.

125# to 150# Seat Pressures req'd, doesn't matter Hydraulic Roller or "Street" SOLID Roller, or Flat Tappet SOLID, Generally pretty close powerwise if comparing "Apples to Apples" of particular grinds, and will live under Street Driving Conditions, it's more the WHERE the power is made ? and HOW for each, but TRQ is better with the Rollers than the Flat Solids.

200# to 215# Seat Pressures are SOLID Rollers ONLY, sorta "Real Rollers", "Race", make more Power than any of the above, but generally NOT for Street Driving as they don't last, it's not IF but WHEN you end up with an Oilpan full of broken lifters on the street eventually, or Killed V/Springs and other "problems".

240# to 270# Contoured Profile Solid Rollers, Race, self explanatory.

My points being;
Do NOT think you are gonna run a Solid Roller Cam that Req's 155# V/Springs(Street) and WILL live on the Street, and make the same Power as a "Race" Solid Roller that Req's 225# Springs
Don't think then,
that you can run the 225# Req'd Race Solid Roller Cam on the Street ? to gain the extra Power ? (It won't live very long.)

 

[mauve66]

i thought that engine DVD i got on here said even hydraulic rollers (aftermarket not OEM from the dealer) had to be checked at least every year due to wear, i'll have to go look at the video again

[BBKNARF]

Thanks 

[Challenger340]

i thought that engine DVD i got on here said even hydraulic rollers (aftermarket not OEM from the dealer) had to be checked at least every year due to wear, i'll have to go look at the video again

The Problem with the more aggressive Aftermarket "Hydraulic" Rollers, is the constant "Balancing Act" between HOW FAST the Ramp on the Cam can be made for Power,
and,
Maintaining the Hydraulic Plunger in the Lifter "Pumped Up" with Oil Pressure from the Engine.
Internal Engine Oil Pressure variations from Engine to Engine are also a factor, but completely different issue.

The faster you make the Cam Ramp speed for power/rpm's, the more V/Spring Pressure is Req'd to maintain Lifter contact with the Cam on the backside, which "pushs" the Oil out of the Lifter(Bleed down).
This is the "why" behind "when" Aftermarket "HotRod" Hyd Rollers began appearing, they were very limited for higher rpm's
However,
Great strides have been made in the last coupla years in the "Lifter" area technology, and they are getting better for Power/RPM's these days.
That said,
Important to remember when talking the more "Agressive'" Aftermarket Hyd Rollers, that they are used WITH the Aftermarket "HOTROD" Hyd Roller Lifters for THAT reason ! especially in the 150# seat pressure ranges.

Don't use the "stock" Hyd Roller Lifters with the Aftermarket Hyd Roller Cams, they WILL bleed down, add lash, add make Mechanical contact which can Damage the Trunions during street useage.
I'm thinking maybe that is what the "DVD" you are referring to may be talking about ? But, I've never seen the DVD ?

[firefighter3931]

With a solid roller i would be inspecting the lifters and valvesprings at 3000 miles. The lifters will probably need a rebuild and you might need to replace the valvesprings. Increased loads wear parts out, just the nature of the beast with a solid roller 


Ron

Ron, is it just the higher spring preasure? Does the lash take -up with a solid lifter cam make them wear faster?

The increased spring loads create pressure on the pivot points which accelerates wear. Most solid "street rollers" will need 500+ lbs over the nose to keep the valvetrain stable. 

Hydraulic rollers are another ballgame and Bob highlighted the concerns in his well written post. 



Ron

[mauve66]

so you guys are saying that for zero maintenance (drive 10K+miles a year) a regular hydraulic flat tappet cam is the way to go and not a hydraulic roller cam??

[aifilaw]

A lot of the convictions about hydraulic rollers are very valid, because most people going for a hydraulic roller retrofit are doing so to get incredible 4-6 ramp rates out of a cam. But cam dynamics being the same, a hydraulic roller will always beat a hydraulic flat tappet in longevity and maintainability.
I put a hydraulic roller in mine for example, for the sole purpose of not having to open up the valve covers for 100,000 miles of trouble-free operation. To do that I chose a fairly mild cam which should only produce around 500 hp at the flywheel.
Note the hydraulic flat-tappet style ramp-rate for increased longevity.

Cam Style      Hydraulic roller tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range      2,200-6,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift      230
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift      236
Duration at 050 inch Lift      230 int./236 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration      280
Advertised Exhaust Duration      288
Advertised Duration      280 int./288 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio      0.541 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio      0.537 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio      0.541 int./0.537 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees)      110
Grind Number      XR280HR-10

[flyinlow]

A lot of the convictions about hydraulic rollers are very valid, because most people going for a hydraulic roller retrofit are doing so to get incredible 4-6 ramp rates out of a cam. But cam dynamics being the same, a hydraulic roller will always beat a hydraulic flat tappet in longevity and maintainability.
I put a hydraulic roller in mine for example, for the sole purpose of not having to open up the valve covers for 100,000 miles of trouble-free operation. To do that I chose a fairly mild cam which should only produce around 500 hp at the flywheel.
Note the hydraulic flat-tappet style ramp-rate for increased longevity.

Cam Style      Hydraulic roller tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range      2,200-6,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift      230
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift      236
Duration at 050 inch Lift      230 int./236 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration      280
Advertised Exhaust Duration      288
Advertised Duration      280 int./288 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio      0.541 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio      0.537 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio      0.541 int./0.537 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees)      110
Grind Number      XR280HR-10









I am missing something? Ramp rates ? where are you getting this information? The number of degrees between advertised duration and that at .050 lift?

The XR280HR - 10 is very similar to my Lunati 60303 Hydraulic flat tappet.  My cam has less lift .494/.513
What spring pressures does the  XR 280HR-10 require?

My interest in the hydraulic roller is low maintenace, less oil concerns, less friction loss. Lunati's vodoo cams claim more area under the curve because they take advantage of the larger diameter Mopar lifter ability's to open the valve faster without cam failure. One of the things that would make a hydraulic roller cam attractive.

[aifilaw]

I am missing something? Ramp rates ? where are you getting this information? The number of degrees between advertised duration and that at .050 lift?

The XR280HR - 10 is very similar to my Lunati 60303 Hydraulic flat tappet.  My cam has less lift .494/.513
What spring pressures does the  XR 280HR-10 require?

My interest in the hydraulic roller is low maintenace, less oil concerns, less friction loss. Lunati's vodoo cams claim more area under the curve because they take advantage of the larger diameter Mopar lifter ability's to open the valve faster without cam failure. One of the things that would make a hydraulic roller cam attractive.

That is correct.
The Lunati has a 3.05 Ramp Rate
the Comp has a 2.90 Ramp rate
Both are so close in that regard I would not worry about longevity, it is when people get into the 4's with a flat tappet that the engine will last 20-40k miles, and the 5's with a roller that the same will occur.

[Purple68]

I am missing something? Ramp rates ? where are you getting this information? The number of degrees between advertised duration and that at .050 lift?

The XR280HR - 10 is very similar to my Lunati 60303 Hydraulic flat tappet.  My cam has less lift .494/.513
What spring pressures does the  XR 280HR-10 require?

My interest in the hydraulic roller is low maintenace, less oil concerns, less friction loss. Lunati's vodoo cams claim more area under the curve because they take advantage of the larger diameter Mopar lifter ability's to open the valve faster without cam failure. One of the things that would make a hydraulic roller cam attractive.

That is correct.
The Lunati has a 3.05 Ramp Rate
the Comp has a 2.90 Ramp rate
Both are so close in that regard I would not worry about longevity, it is when people get into the 4's with a flat tappet that the engine will last 20-40k miles, and the 5's with a roller that the same will occur.

I'm curious about the longevity of the XR286HR cam as that is what I got for my 493. Also how do you calculate the ramp rates?

[flyinlow]

Yes , how do you calculate the Ramp rate.   

[aifilaw]

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/728604-camshaft-information-specifications.html

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6041&start=0

has some information, I'm too lazy to write an excel spreadsheet to take advertised and 0.050 data and plot the curve and take the slope of the line, because I have an old program that plots it all out for me. perhaps I should do that...

Some of these might help for calculating rate-of-lift (ramp rate):

http://www.modelenginenews.org/design/CamTable.php

http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/caminfo.htm