Tried to start engine break in... *Update 6/18*

[grdprx]

We tried again with no success last night..   

Batteries died and starter got tired.  It was cranking over, then sort of back fired and the starter wasn't spinning the same anymore..  And it seemed flooded again.  My buddy helping me thought it may be getting too much gas..  Started going over things, and it seems I didn't rebuild this carb.  I over looked it.    

So, now I'm going to try and rebuild it this weekend.  Do I need to get it tested or anything? 

[elacruze]

You need to get the basics right first-

Be sure your battery is in good condition and fully charged. Using jumper cables to support a weak battery will just cost you another starter. Low battery voltage increases amperage load in all components; battery, starter, and ignition.

Take the time to go through the initial static timing procedures carefully.
If you have to crank the motor for more than ten seconds, something is wrong. Cranking beyond that point only kills your equipment. You should not have any wet fuel on the spark plugs. You should be able to see fuel squirt when you open the carburetor. If not, it needs a rebuild. Look into your intake manifold with a flashlight through the carburetor and see if there is wet fuel puddling in there. If so, crank engine with throttle held wide open.

Keep a fire extinguisher in somebody's hand while starting, I see a recipe for a good fire here.

[aifilaw]

Like it has been said before, make sure your timing is dead on with the rotor to #1, cylinder #1 is at TDC, perhaps another 10 degree's or so before it hits spark plug wire #1 by the rotor in the counter-clockwise direction. ensure you have fuel, ensure you have spark.
turn the engine over without touching the throttle for a good 15-30 seconds, let it rest, then give it a blip and try to fire it up. If it backfires through the carb you are 180 degrees' out of timing, pull the distributor up, spin it 180 and lock it back down again and then go.
If it sounds like it hits and then tries but doesn't start, advance or retard the starter as you turn the engine over and it should sounds better and better until it really starts, or worse in which case you are going the wrong way.

[grdprx]

So, this carb seems that it might be too small.  It's an Edelbrock  1405, which is apparently 600cfm.  I have a 440, nothing too performance oriented.  It was bored 60 over, has the Engle K56 cam, stock heads, and HP manifolds.

I don't have $ right now for a different carburetor; so will this thing work for now?

[elacruze]

That carb is fine. A two-barrel would work for just driving around.

[grdprx]

Well, I had rebuilt the carb; and tried 2 or 3 more times to fire it up...  No success.  So, I've decided I need to pull the timing cover and check the timing marks.  We'll see what happens.

[elacruze]

 

[greenpigs]

 

When you get the cover off, come here and post the results BEFORE doing anything.

[grdprx]

When you get the cover off, come here and post the results BEFORE doing anything.

Will do, thanks!

[grdprx]

Well, I wasn't using my head when I dug into this; this afternoon.  I got the timing cover off, and couldn't see the timing marks.  So someone got the bright idea to take the chain off...       But, in my defense, the 440 source timing chain set; the cam gear didn't have a timing mark on the front!  So, I marked it so I could see it installed.  Anyway, this is how the marks line up.  Looks like how I installed it.

[elacruze]

Yikes!

You can find your cam timing with a degree wheel, piston stop, and dial indicator...

Or you can send that crap back to 440source and get a good set, or refund, or store credit, and just install something that works. Timing sets are relatively inexpensive.

You can also use the 'split lobe' method, which should get you close enough to know the correct tooth on the cam sprocket.
Keep in mind while rotating the cam and crank that you may bump the pistons and valves, if your setup has inadequate clearance so don't force any rotation.

Remove all spark plugs.
Remove the timing chain and put the cam gear back on.
Find TDC on #1.
Rotate the camshaft until #1 intake and exhaust rockers are both open to the same lift, as close as you can tell. You may not be able to accomplish this due to the springs pushing the cam around on the other cylinders.
Once the crank is at TDC and the lobe lift split, reinstall the timing chain without moving the crank or cam. You must be certain that you are as close as possible without moving either component.
Rotate the crankshaft through two complete revolutions to be certain there is no piston/valve contact.
Install distributor, time. You will need to rotate the crankshaft 360* for TDC on compression.
Fuel, fire, drive.

[greenpigs]

I would pick up the super tuning DVD offered here as it has a degreeing cam section. Since you went this far with it you might as well make sure the cam is at the optimum location.

[lisiecki1]

dude...your cam gear is on backwards....

[grdprx]

dude...your cam gear is on backwards....

it's on backwards?   Wow, I'm a bigger fool that I thought.

[lisiecki1]

yessir, backwards...that puts your cam 90 degrees out.  I bet there's a line up mark on the other side of the gear.  It'll be a WHOLE lot easier to torque the cam bolts too.

Not a fool, just ignorant....everybody has to learn sometime, no worries 

you might want to pull your valve covers and make sure you didn't tweak any valves though

[elacruze]

dude...your cam gear is on backwards....

Ok, I'm three for three today. I'm taking a break. 

[grdprx]

yessir, backwards...that puts your cam 90 degrees out.  I bet there's a line up mark on the other side of the gear.  It'll be a WHOLE lot easier to torque the cam bolts too.

Not a fool, just ignorant....everybody has to learn sometime, no worries 

you might want to pull your valve covers and make sure you didn't tweak any valves though

What would I be looking for, regarding the tweaked valves?  Would I notice something pretty easily?

[lisiecki1]

if you roll the camshaft over to close a set of valves and you have extensive rocker arm play then you more than likely have a bent valve.  If you do the same and have no play at all it could mean a broken valve.  Also, if you compression test the engine and have cylinders not holding any pressure whatsoever, there's probably a bent/broken valve associated with that cylinder.

The valve cover test lets you check without rolling the motor over anymore though.

not sure if I explained that well enough, please let me know if you need clarification....

[grdprx]

I got a valve cover off, don't see anything to awry.  I took the odd side off, cylinder 1,3,5,7.   Would I need to take the even side off too?

Anything I'm missing?  

[flyinlow]

I would sugest that you remove the rocker shafts before you do anything else . Do not rotate the crank or cam until you do. This will let all the valves close so you can put the cam gear on and time the cam correctly with out causing any damage. . Then you can check for valves that have already be damaged. They might be fine ,it depends on the pistons and cam. While you have the rocker shafts off put a straight edge across the valve stems ,are they about the same height? Remove the plugs and pump compressed air into the cyclinders, The piston should go to BDC. rotating the crank a little. A little air should hiss out of the crankcase up thru the removed valve covers. This is normal cold engine piston ring leakage. Large hissing and airflow thru the carb or exhuast could indicate damaged valves. 

[lisiecki1]

^ what he said

if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right 

[grdprx]

Sounds like a good idea, I agree, need to do it right.  I'll pull the rocker shaft off and look at that, although I don't have compressed air, short of blowing on a straw.   

[lisiecki1]

lol.....just checking for flat across the top of the valve stems will tell you quite a bit

[greenpigs]

   Did you pull off the sprocket on the cam to make sure you have it flipped backwards? Removing the valve cover will help when you rotate the motor so you can watch the rocker arms, and checking for bent valves etc wouldn't hurt either.

[grdprx]

I have the cam gear off right now, pulled the rockers this morning.  The valves seem to line up against the straightest thing I had.  There is a little, slight variation every couple valves.  I think I'll have my mechanic friend confirm them for me.  But I'm feeling better about the situation.  My stomach was in knots worried about valve damage!

I flipped the cam gear, and it does look better; going on the right way.  I can't believe I put it on backwards...   

If everything checks out, I should be able to get it all back together within a week; and try firing this up.   

Thanks a lot for all your help!  I'll keep at it, and keep the questions coming.