Tried to start engine break in... *Update 6/18*

[grdprx]

Couldn't get it to fire..  Had spark and poured a bit of gas in the carb a few times.  We messed with the distributor, twisting back and forth.  Battery died from cranking so much.  Not good, I know.  Starter smoked a bit as the battery died.  Hope it's not fried!

So, is my timing off or what?

[tan top]

 for a start i would make sure ,  no1 piston is at TDC , the timing mark in the harmonic balancer  is 0 on the timing tab & the rotor arm is pointing to number one on the cap !  motor will always start ! , if every thing is correct how it should be

[BigBlackDodge]

The timing could be 180 degrees off too..


BBD

[1BAD68]

for a start i would make sure ,  no1 piston is at TDC , the timing mark in the harmonic balancer  is 0 on the timing tab & the rotor arm is pointing to number one on the cap !  motor will always start ! , if every thing is correct how it should be

Yup, thats called static timing. All the engines I've done have started on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd crank because of that.
If you have it static timed you can wiggle the distributor with the key in the run position and watch the #1 spark plug fire.

[grdprx]

I have #1 on the compression stroke, and set the distributor to that. 

I'm searching on here, I think the cam timing mark may be installed wrong.  If I remember correctly, (it's been almost 2 years...)  The book said have the crank mark at 12 o'clock and the cam at 6.  There are threads that state both should be at high noon..   

If this is the case, can I turn the distributor 180, or do I have to pull the water pump housing and pull the timing cover?

I'll have to go get my book to refresh my memory.

[1BAD68]

What engine? Its always been crank 12, cam 6 from what I can remember so that should be fine.

[grdprx]

440

[1BAD68]

If you have it at 12 and 6 then just try 180'ing the distributor. It only takes a few minutes and its a really common mistake when assembling.

[grdprx]

So, one mechanic said the slot on the oil pump drive needs to be parallel to the cam after it's dropped onto the cam drive.  That way the distibutor lines up with it.  never heard this before...

I tried to switch the distributor 180, but I think the starter may have crapped out from cranking too much yesterday.  One battery, just clicked the starter.  The one out of my pickup turned it over at first, then after the plug wires and everything got re-hooked up, the starter just clicked again.  Starts my pickup just fine though.

It was a new - rebuilt Napa model..  the stock one to the car..  not a mini.  probably need to get it tested or something.

[1BAD68]

I'm guessing that the distributor was in right the first time, if its 180 out it will be hard to crank because of the compression.
You should put it back the way it was and then turn the engine by hand to #1 TDC on compression stroke, take the #1 spark wire and place near a ground.
Turn the key to on and wiggle the distributor back and forth, when you see the spark wire spark, lock down the distributor.
Mopar starters are pretty tough so I dont think it would be smoked and I've never heard of the oil pump thing either.
Charge up your battery and then crank it over, if you have gas it should fire off.
If it does then walk over to the fridge and grab a cold one and set your timing to where you want it.

[flyinlow]

also check carb for fuel, if the accelerator pump is not squirting , bottle feed the carb with an old gear oil bottle full of gas and a piece of gas hose.

a fire extinguisher near by is always a good idea on the first start.

[TylerCharger69]

If you assemble the engine with the crank marker at 12 o'clock, and the cam gear marker at 6 o'clock then the rotor on the distributor should be pointing to cylinder 6.....not cylinder 1....it's a very common assembly mistake.

[grdprx]

Well, the starter is no good.  Ordered up the DB Electric Mini Starter, we'll see how it goes once I get it.

[grdprx]

If you assemble the engine with the crank marker at 12 o'clock, and the cam gear marker at 6 o'clock then the rotor on the distributor should be pointing to cylinder 6.....not cylinder 1....it's a very common assembly mistake.

Ok, a question in reference to the "180" of the distributor...  (I've had too much time on my hands to think about this, and have confused myself)

Am I pulling the distributor up, and flipping the rotor 180, and leave the wires where they sit under current configuration; or do I flip it 180 and redo the wires at the new #1 position?  Because, currently the engine is at TDC on #1, on the compression stroke.  That's that part that is confusing me..  Since #1 is TDC and such...

Received the starter and got that in, and am ready to try break in again.  Also had time to fix the steering coupler while I was waiting for the starter to arrive.  So, it was productive down time.  Now that the coupler is done, I can put the brake booster in..  (thought I could use a little room while messing with the coupler and I hadn't bled them yet) 

Engine break in could turn into break in and then first drive!!!    

[grdprx]

So, I found the book I used to assemble the motor.. How to Rebuild Big-Block Mopar Engines.  by Don Taylor.  Great book, excellent directions and instruction.

Anyway, on the Cam & Crank Timing section, it says #1, Rotate the crank and cam until these two marks are as close together as possible.  The mark on the crank sprocket will be straight down and the mark on the cam will be straight up.  #2, Using a machinist's straight-edge against the cam sprocket on center with the cam and the crankshaft, rotate both cam and crank sprockets until both timing marks are aligned.  When the two timing marks are aligned with the centers of the cam and crank sprockets, the crank and cam are correctly timed.

If I remember correctly, that 2nd step comfused me just a bit.  Anyway, I interpreted that as having the cam and crank marks toward each other...

[flyinlow]

With the engine on #1 cylinder compression stroke ( forward cylinder on drivers side blowing finger off sparkplug hole as you bump the engine with the starter)  align timing mark on the vibration dampener with the zero mark the timing chain cover. Follow the # 1 plug wire back to the distributor. The rotor should be pointing to that electrode on the inside of the cap. If 180* off. Pull dist. and rotate 180*. If degrees off by a number not 180 *( 60 * for example) you have two choices. Pull all eight wires and move accordingly or pull the distributor,then the oil pump drive and re-index it .

The engine dos not care how you install the dist. as long as it fires the spark plugs slightly before tdc on the compression stroke in the correct order of 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  There are eigth ways to do this, however most use the standard factory setup for common points of reference.

The crankshaft dos not care if the cam is correct or 180* out.  It will care if the cam is 005*-175* or 185*-355* out of time.

To set static timing for startup. Rotate engine  to 10* btdc compression stroke #1 cylinder. Pull #1 plug wire and put a spare plug in the wire. Lay the plug on the engine touching the metal. Turn on the ignition switch. Loosen the dist. holdown and move the distributor slight forward or backward untill the dist fires the  spark plug. Tighten the holdown . This should be close enough to start.

[flyinlow]

A rotor with the plastic alighnment key damaged can really mees up things.

[elacruze]

It doesn't matter whether the timing marks are up or down, as long as they are aligned with the cam and crank centers. As the engine rotates, eventually the marks will both be up and down, together and separately because the cam turns at 1/2 crank.

So, that only means you need to figure out where your timing is. You can pull #1 plug and put a finger over the hole, while turning (by hand/breaker bar) the engine over. When you feel compression, just bring the damper timing up to about 15* before top center, and install the distributor with the rotor at #1 plug. Follow Flyinlow's directions for getting a little closer.

Now, don't do what I did the first time-fail to keep engine RPM's up high enough to oil the cam and wipe it out. I was scared of hurting rings or bearings or cylinder walls and took the cam. Next time, I screwed that baby up to 2200 rpm and set the timing while it ran. As long as the timing isn't way retarded you'll be fine for the first heat cycle, you can dial it in close later. If the timing is too advanced you'll know it because it will be hard to roll through compression.

[grdprx]

I tried to set the dist. by checking the spark on #1 with the ignition on...  I saw no spark. 

When we first tried to start it last time, my father inlaw saw spark from the coil wire; but that was 2 weeks ago...

I have a slightly different electronic distributor, one that doesn't require the "brain box"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOPAR-CHRYSLER-DODGE-440-426-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-6714-R_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem51915c2079QQitemZ350331084921QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

I'll have to check a few things, it seems

[flyinlow]

I would think turning the ignition on and off quickly would make the system spark. Not familiar with that distributor.

The only weekness with the Mopar electronic ignition was the ballast resistors occasional got wet and would burn out. Still rare.

GM 's HEI has a control modual it is just inside the distributor. HEI's had a problem with rotor burn thru.

[grdprx]

So, it's been like 3 weeks since I tried firing this beast up.  Weather isn't cooperating for another go at it, with the new starter and all...

I'm still smelling a strong fuel smell, it's beginning to make me wonder...   Is it normal to have a strong fuel odor under the hood?

[lisiecki1]

not uncommon to have that smell on carbureted cars when they have been sitting a bit.....what kind of carb is on there?

[tan top]

prolly flooded , with all that trying to start ! cant work out what this damn think wont fire !! , think by now if every thing else as it should be , i would be taking off the front timing cover & checking  cam to crank timing marks 

[grdprx]

I did have a fuel leak!  The hard line out of the fuel pump had a crack on the flare...     Oh well, got a new piece of hard line, going to bend it and replace it.  Might try starting over the weekend.  See if anything works, else I'll have to check those timing marks...  Thanks.

[AmadeusCharger500]

Once you find tdc on number one piston Look at the rotor and make sure its pointing at plug number one. Try to mark the location somehow visually on an engine part or whatever and then put the cap on and advance it a small turn. If you don't hear it fire then I'd suggest checking the ignition spark. If you were unsure of the cam mark check that once you have TDC. Just pull the distributor and look inside with a light.

[grdprx]

We tried again with no success last night..   

Batteries died and starter got tired.  It was cranking over, then sort of back fired and the starter wasn't spinning the same anymore..  And it seemed flooded again.  My buddy helping me thought it may be getting too much gas..  Started going over things, and it seems I didn't rebuild this carb.  I over looked it.    

So, now I'm going to try and rebuild it this weekend.  Do I need to get it tested or anything? 

[elacruze]

You need to get the basics right first-

Be sure your battery is in good condition and fully charged. Using jumper cables to support a weak battery will just cost you another starter. Low battery voltage increases amperage load in all components; battery, starter, and ignition.

Take the time to go through the initial static timing procedures carefully.
If you have to crank the motor for more than ten seconds, something is wrong. Cranking beyond that point only kills your equipment. You should not have any wet fuel on the spark plugs. You should be able to see fuel squirt when you open the carburetor. If not, it needs a rebuild. Look into your intake manifold with a flashlight through the carburetor and see if there is wet fuel puddling in there. If so, crank engine with throttle held wide open.

Keep a fire extinguisher in somebody's hand while starting, I see a recipe for a good fire here.

[aifilaw]

Like it has been said before, make sure your timing is dead on with the rotor to #1, cylinder #1 is at TDC, perhaps another 10 degree's or so before it hits spark plug wire #1 by the rotor in the counter-clockwise direction. ensure you have fuel, ensure you have spark.
turn the engine over without touching the throttle for a good 15-30 seconds, let it rest, then give it a blip and try to fire it up. If it backfires through the carb you are 180 degrees' out of timing, pull the distributor up, spin it 180 and lock it back down again and then go.
If it sounds like it hits and then tries but doesn't start, advance or retard the starter as you turn the engine over and it should sounds better and better until it really starts, or worse in which case you are going the wrong way.

[grdprx]

So, this carb seems that it might be too small.  It's an Edelbrock  1405, which is apparently 600cfm.  I have a 440, nothing too performance oriented.  It was bored 60 over, has the Engle K56 cam, stock heads, and HP manifolds.

I don't have $ right now for a different carburetor; so will this thing work for now?

[elacruze]

That carb is fine. A two-barrel would work for just driving around.

[grdprx]

Well, I had rebuilt the carb; and tried 2 or 3 more times to fire it up...  No success.  So, I've decided I need to pull the timing cover and check the timing marks.  We'll see what happens.

[elacruze]

 

[greenpigs]

 

When you get the cover off, come here and post the results BEFORE doing anything.

[grdprx]

When you get the cover off, come here and post the results BEFORE doing anything.

Will do, thanks!

[grdprx]

Well, I wasn't using my head when I dug into this; this afternoon.  I got the timing cover off, and couldn't see the timing marks.  So someone got the bright idea to take the chain off...       But, in my defense, the 440 source timing chain set; the cam gear didn't have a timing mark on the front!  So, I marked it so I could see it installed.  Anyway, this is how the marks line up.  Looks like how I installed it.

[elacruze]

Yikes!

You can find your cam timing with a degree wheel, piston stop, and dial indicator...

Or you can send that crap back to 440source and get a good set, or refund, or store credit, and just install something that works. Timing sets are relatively inexpensive.

You can also use the 'split lobe' method, which should get you close enough to know the correct tooth on the cam sprocket.
Keep in mind while rotating the cam and crank that you may bump the pistons and valves, if your setup has inadequate clearance so don't force any rotation.

Remove all spark plugs.
Remove the timing chain and put the cam gear back on.
Find TDC on #1.
Rotate the camshaft until #1 intake and exhaust rockers are both open to the same lift, as close as you can tell. You may not be able to accomplish this due to the springs pushing the cam around on the other cylinders.
Once the crank is at TDC and the lobe lift split, reinstall the timing chain without moving the crank or cam. You must be certain that you are as close as possible without moving either component.
Rotate the crankshaft through two complete revolutions to be certain there is no piston/valve contact.
Install distributor, time. You will need to rotate the crankshaft 360* for TDC on compression.
Fuel, fire, drive.

[greenpigs]

I would pick up the super tuning DVD offered here as it has a degreeing cam section. Since you went this far with it you might as well make sure the cam is at the optimum location.

[lisiecki1]

dude...your cam gear is on backwards....

[grdprx]

dude...your cam gear is on backwards....

it's on backwards?   Wow, I'm a bigger fool that I thought.

[lisiecki1]

yessir, backwards...that puts your cam 90 degrees out.  I bet there's a line up mark on the other side of the gear.  It'll be a WHOLE lot easier to torque the cam bolts too.

Not a fool, just ignorant....everybody has to learn sometime, no worries 

you might want to pull your valve covers and make sure you didn't tweak any valves though

[elacruze]

dude...your cam gear is on backwards....

Ok, I'm three for three today. I'm taking a break. 

[grdprx]

yessir, backwards...that puts your cam 90 degrees out.  I bet there's a line up mark on the other side of the gear.  It'll be a WHOLE lot easier to torque the cam bolts too.

Not a fool, just ignorant....everybody has to learn sometime, no worries 

you might want to pull your valve covers and make sure you didn't tweak any valves though

What would I be looking for, regarding the tweaked valves?  Would I notice something pretty easily?

[lisiecki1]

if you roll the camshaft over to close a set of valves and you have extensive rocker arm play then you more than likely have a bent valve.  If you do the same and have no play at all it could mean a broken valve.  Also, if you compression test the engine and have cylinders not holding any pressure whatsoever, there's probably a bent/broken valve associated with that cylinder.

The valve cover test lets you check without rolling the motor over anymore though.

not sure if I explained that well enough, please let me know if you need clarification....

[grdprx]

I got a valve cover off, don't see anything to awry.  I took the odd side off, cylinder 1,3,5,7.   Would I need to take the even side off too?

Anything I'm missing?  

[flyinlow]

I would sugest that you remove the rocker shafts before you do anything else . Do not rotate the crank or cam until you do. This will let all the valves close so you can put the cam gear on and time the cam correctly with out causing any damage. . Then you can check for valves that have already be damaged. They might be fine ,it depends on the pistons and cam. While you have the rocker shafts off put a straight edge across the valve stems ,are they about the same height? Remove the plugs and pump compressed air into the cyclinders, The piston should go to BDC. rotating the crank a little. A little air should hiss out of the crankcase up thru the removed valve covers. This is normal cold engine piston ring leakage. Large hissing and airflow thru the carb or exhuast could indicate damaged valves. 

[lisiecki1]

^ what he said

if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right 

[grdprx]

Sounds like a good idea, I agree, need to do it right.  I'll pull the rocker shaft off and look at that, although I don't have compressed air, short of blowing on a straw.   

[lisiecki1]

lol.....just checking for flat across the top of the valve stems will tell you quite a bit

[greenpigs]

   Did you pull off the sprocket on the cam to make sure you have it flipped backwards? Removing the valve cover will help when you rotate the motor so you can watch the rocker arms, and checking for bent valves etc wouldn't hurt either.

[grdprx]

I have the cam gear off right now, pulled the rockers this morning.  The valves seem to line up against the straightest thing I had.  There is a little, slight variation every couple valves.  I think I'll have my mechanic friend confirm them for me.  But I'm feeling better about the situation.  My stomach was in knots worried about valve damage!

I flipped the cam gear, and it does look better; going on the right way.  I can't believe I put it on backwards...   

If everything checks out, I should be able to get it all back together within a week; and try firing this up.   

Thanks a lot for all your help!  I'll keep at it, and keep the questions coming.

[lisiecki1]

I believe the way you had it installed previously would put your cam a little further back in the engine....You may want to pull the lifters and cam out while you have the timing cover off and just give the lobes a once-over and make sure they look up to snuff also.  I'm pretty sure you can pull the lifters without pulling the intake off, but I'm not positive about that at the moment.

[greenpigs]

I don't think that would be possible without popping the intake & valley pan off.

[flyinlow]

Once you have correctly timed the cam,you can reinstall the rocker shafts.  Crank the engine over with the coil wire removed. Does it crank smoothly and evenly?  Do a compression check it you want.

With all the cranking ,you might want to reprime the engine oil for the start up unless you have been getting oil pressure readings durring your troubleshooting engine cranking.

[grdprx]

I got the timing chain correctly installed now!  Turned the crank a couple revolutions, watching both sides of the valve train.  Seemed to be functioning properly, except that push rod that somehow popped out of the rocker...     Fixed that and rechecked. 

Got the timing cover on, have to work on getting the rest back together tomorrow morning.  Got my friend coming over tomorrow night with another guy to try and get this puppy running!

[greenpigs]

Did you make sure the pushrods were not bent? If not roll them across a table or something flat and there should be no wobble.

[grdprx]

Did you make sure the pushrods were not bent? If not roll them across a table or something flat and there should be no wobble.

Yes, it was not bent.  Just popped out as I tried to tighten down the rocker shaft.  That's quite the ordeal by yourself...   Holding the rockers on the pushrods while trying to tighten the shaft to keep it in place.        They never said it was easy, right?   

[TylerCharger69]

I highly doubt  you would have any damage to the valves  because it is not an interference engine...Cam gear on backwards?...I didnt think that was possible due to the offset of the cam but....yeah....that'll do it....especially if the cam gear is no where in the ball park....

[grdprx]

Hey, what can I say?  I wanted to try and do this on my own (with tons of help from DC.com), and I put something on backwards.  Looks like no harm, no foul.  I'm glad for the help and support here, and now I know why this beast hasn't wanted to run.   I should have known better; live and learn, right?

Took a long lunch this afternoon, went home and got the alternator on, the radiator in; tinkered with a few other things.  Just have to prime the engine, put the plugs and wires on, and fill the radiator.  Should be good for another shot and starting it.   

[62dodge]

It is too late now but if you use your oil dip stick to hold your push rods in place it makes it a lot easier to put your rocker arms on. An old racing buddy showed me that trick.

[grdprx]

IT RUNS!!!   

Thank you one and all for your help, got it running.  Did my 20 min break in, changed out the oil; but I can't get the filter off..  And my filter wrench isn't big enough for the Napa 1515..   

I'm enjoing my Beer right now, best one I've had in awhile!  I'm so exicited, now i can't wait to drive it!  My wife said, "First you wanted to start it, just get it running..  Now you 'just want to drive it'...  Sheesh"

My responce, "Duh"   

[greenpigs]

Try and take it easy on it the first few hundered miles, course others will say hammer on it, it doesnt matter.

[elacruze]

It is too late now but if you use your oil dip stick to hold your push rods in place it makes it a lot easier to put your rocker arms on. An old racing buddy showed me that trick.

[elacruze]

Glad it's working. I have a lot of respect for anyone who risks their project at their own hands just to learn something. The first two times I did my own, it turned out badly...be sure to keep the RPMs up to oil the cam!

[flyinlow]

Don't forget the zdp addatives for the oil.

[lisiecki1]

glad to hear you got it going.  congrats bud!