Who does a good 727

[Yeahmate]

I looking at buying a complete 727 to ship down here to Australia, so warranties go out the door due to the freight factor. 
I'm after real life experiences/recommendations of who to buy from, a company that can build and get it right the first time around.
It's going to go behind a street/strip 540 hemi and I'm looking at going for a manual reverse shift pattern.
TCI and the B&M's seem a little to much like a Walmart deal to me.


Thanks ahead

[Musicman]

http://smrtrans.tripod.com/smrtransmissionsintro/index.html

[mikepmcs]

Jamey (RD) right here on this site. Send him a PM.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=27

[68X426]

http://www.aandatrans.com/ContactUs.aspx

Not much of a website, doesn't need to be, they are the best.

[RD]

Jamey (RD) right here on this site. Send him a PM.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=27

thanks Mike!  Sounds like you want something that will cost alot, considering freight and all.  Whatever you choose, make sure you understand exactly what you need, not what the company wants you to buy.  I know it sounds redundant, but I see, too often, where a person will buy a transmission with all the goodies though they do not need them.  The company though, is more than happy to provide you with the additional cost.

I can build 727's with the best of them, the difference between me and the big guys is that they have access to all the high price goodies that cost a shitload (not a shitload to them, but to you).

A stock overhaul will handle 550hp.. though pushing it and dependent upon certain components.  Minor upgrades to a transmission, such as:

RMVB
Bolt in sprag (ultimate or not)
4.2 lever
Billet front and rear servos
Solid front band
kevlar blue or red clutch discs
reinforced front strut
4 or 5 front planetary
4 or 6 rear planetary
deep trans pan
locking dipstick tube (nhra change, not sure how it will affect you in Australia)

should be more than enough to get you to a comfortable, lower cost than average, dependable and strong 727 to handle your everday needs on the street or strip.

Granted, there are extreme transmissions out there that are rollerized, full billet, hemi drums etc., but honestly (in most circumstances) they are really just conversation pieces to "keep up the jones'" rather than something that is really needed or required.

If you have any questions, please pm me and I can help you in regards to what you need.  I will be totally impartial and unbiased to help you find what is right for you and not as heavy on your wallet.

[Yeahmate]

Thanks for the responses, it will take a little while to digest it all.

But do a little reading and;

To low band lock up or not?

I see on

The SMR COMPETITION ELIMINATOR (REVERSE PATTERN) VALVEBODY FEATURES:

it does say

This results in the cleanest 1-2 shift possible because there is no overlap from having to apply the intermediate band while the low/rev band is still applied.

-LOW GEAR COAST SPRAG SAFETY feature only allows downshift to 1st at a stopped or no load situation.  This is to protect the roller clutch from possible severe damage.  Shifting to low at a higher speed will result in a neutralized coasting.;


This model is best suited to Competition Applications but can also be used on very high performance street applications where performance and reliability is required.   Street operation does require full shifting and carefull use of 1st gear.

and just how rough is a full pressured VB on the streets, chirp the tyres every gear change?

[John_Kunkel]

Here's the poop:

Not applying the rear band in 1st gear does result in the "cleanest 1-2 shift possible" as SMR says but they're not telling you the whole story. Not applying the rear band in 1st puts all of the load on the sprag and sprag failure is the cause of TF explosions. IMHO, (and many others) it is wiser to apply the band and accept the slight loss of performance for the sake of safety. Also, even with the rear band apply and a HD sprag there is still a chance of sprag failure and front drum overspeed (explosion). That's why I think it's wiser to forget some of the "accepted" parts and bite the bullet for a billet front drum. A billet front drum would be at the top of my shopping list rather than in the middle or end.

As for the planetaries, I think lots of extra pinions are a waste of money in a 5-600 hp unit, the weakness isn't the pinion count but the material the pinion carrier is made from. The aluminum front planet carrier can fail at the splines with less than 500 hp therefore a steel 3-pinion is preferable to a gazillion-pinion aluminum unit.

[Yeahmate]

Thanks John, yeah I'd dare say there would be a lot of torque on that sprag in first gear, and if it didn't hold a lot of rev's out of the poor planetary s.

[firefighter3931]

Here's the poop:

IMHO, (and many others) it is wiser to apply the band and accept the slight loss of performance for the sake of safety. Also, even with the rear band apply and a HD sprag there is still a chance of sprag failure and front drum overspeed (explosion). That's why I think it's wiser to forget some of the "accepted" parts and bite the bullet for a billet front drum. A billet front drum would be at the top of my shopping list rather than in the middle or end.

I agree 100% with this ; low band apply is extremely important, especially with a stock aluminum drum. I have a T/A manual valvebody in mine and it shifts quick with virtually no overlap. On a street/strip high horsepower heavy car combination the list of upgrades is long.

Mine is built for a 4100 street/strip car making 720hp/720tq so it has to be bulletproof ;

-billet steel drum
-billet aluminum servos & billet accumulator
-HD band strut
-Low band apply manual valvebody
-bolt in sprag
-HD bands & clutches
-4 pinion steel front planetary
-billet front pump gear
-deep trans pan & HD cooler

* it's not cheap to build but safety and reliability are the first priority 



Ron

[John_Kunkel]

The bolt-in sprag is seen by many as a panacea for sprag failures but it only prevents the type of failure where the outer cam ring spins in the case, by far the most common failure mode is of the internal elements. The pic below shows a bolt-in sprag with a failure of the internal elements; the ends of the bolts are clearly visible in the cam ring. I prefer to leave the stock sprag intact and spend the money elsewhere.

[Yeahmate]

Thanks Ron and John, taking it on board 

[Musicman]

Here's the poop:

Not applying the rear band in 1st gear does result in the "cleanest 1-2 shift possible" as SMR says but they're not telling you the whole story.

Actually they do... the quote was simply taken out of context...

COMPETITION ELIMINATOR - REVERSE PATTERN -
Unlike our other valvebodies, this valvebody (when placed in Low gear),utilizes the application of the one-way roller clutch (sprag) for 1st gear,

[Yeahmate]

Here's the poop:

Not applying the rear band in 1st gear does result in the "cleanest 1-2 shift possible" as SMR says but they're not telling you the whole story.

Actually they do... the quote was simply taken out of context...

COMPETITION ELIMINATOR - REVERSE PATTERN -
Unlike our other valvebodies, this valvebody (when placed in Low gear),utilizes the application of the one-way roller clutch (sprag) for 1st gear,

I would say John was explaining 'what could go wrong' if you don't have low band apply. Nothing more. 

[Musicman]

Understood and agreed... John is one of my favorite people here... Top Dog in the world of transmissions
Just didn't want other readers getting the wrong impression here concerning SMR, they put out a quality product. You can not order anything directly from their web site, and for good reason.

No... SMR does not go into detail concerning the possible consequences of using the Eliminator Reverse pattern valve body on a street driven vehicle, but they do post the following warning...

This model is best suited to Competition Applications ...... Street operation does require full shifting and carefull use of 1st gear.

Because they do make valve bodies that are designed for street or street/strip applications... this is just not one of them.

[John_Kunkel]

Never meant to deride the quality of SMR's products, I merely feel that their "careful use of 1st gear" disclaimer doesn't go far enough.

[flyinlow]

Interesting to see the different lists of upgrades. Trying to compile the list of common ones that give the best bang for the buck on a street car.   

[oldkimmer]

...................I think John over at CRT has a rear band apply RMVB.+ 1 that has a PRN123N pattern, which my next tranny will b getting........kim.....

[Rolling_Thunder]

this is why my car has a 4-speed    haha    I never could fully wrap my mind around the functions of an auto trans...     

gear to gear makes a lot more sense to me than fluids and pressures...     

lot of good info here though

[flyinlow]

[this is why my car has a 4-speed    haha    I never could fully wrap my mind around the functions of an auto trans...     

gear to gear makes a lot more sense to me than fluids and pressures...     

lot of good info here though





Well lets see,  2:1 tork multiplication at the initial shock stall, no clutch can do that, throtlle stays wide open durring the shifts and less stress on the drive train. With lock-up converters taking car of the constant slip , you can have your cake and eat it too.

Manuals are fun to drive (all my motorcycles have them) they jerk the car around alot,so they feel faster and give you something to do durring the acceleration.

[THE STIG]

http://www.aandatrans.com/ContactUs.aspx

Not much of a website, doesn't need to be, they are the best.

I second A&A Ive known several people who've done business with them and there work is just bad ass. And I think they've done alot of work with those of you from down under as well.

[Yeahmate]

Well obviously not this guy   . Hate to say it but.... if you want something done right/to your standards do it yourself  .
I went this route because saving on the freight to FHO, then which all the stuff was box up together and freighted out to me.
Nuff of the crying, what I'm chasing I need help from the experts on what I need to do or buy for this rebuild which will be behind a street/strip going 776 hp and 719 ft lbs torque engine
I brought this trans recondition ready to go had it in the first time and the starter would bolt up flush, had to mill out a little of the bell housing http://i56.tinypic.com/1zlpttj.jpg around the starter's nose area, this was with both my new mini and the old original starter :-? . Then re-bolted the auto back in and found I'd had to much play in the drive shaft yolk bush in the tail housing.... so that was it, pull it out and strip the complete box, as I'd lost confidence in this rebuild. Also it was suppose to have the vent relocated to and wasn't, so it will be getting that done as well.

So what we have here is a recondition 727 complete with;
grease and grime under the paint http://i53.tinypic.com/10on1ur.jpg
The tail housing bush http://i54.tinypic.com/2rh0l8o.jpg appears new but has to much slop on a not to old chrome molly yolk, so it will be replaced.
Second hand output shaft and bearing complete with surface rust http://i51.tinypic.com/11ucd9t.jpg , http://i51.tinypic.com/153wjmr.jpg , stripped pan bolt and 7/16'' bell housing bolt http://i52.tinypic.com/n63meb.jpg , http://i55.tinypic.com/2d0nzg3.jpg paint on pan sealing surface, http://i53.tinypic.com/1hxd2w.jpg.

The box is out of a 71 early 72, B 383 & 440 going by the part # PK3515847 3633 9053, it has a A & A reverse pattern VB with low band apply as per the part # on the valve body http://i53.tinypic.com/200senb.jpg , also a wide bushing reaction shaft with some mod's (grind marks on the backside raised oil passages) http://i51.tinypic.com/ylcso.jpg http://i53.tinypic.com/2vto6lj.jpg . This reaction shaft does not have a little hole in the end so is it a 74 - 77 shaft? http://i53.tinypic.com/20z8c52.jpg .The input shaft http://i52.tinypic.com/11brhir.jpg has dedicated oil direct to the bush journal so is that a pre 74?. The backside of the input shaft http://i51.tinypic.com/ws3o4.jpg has a ball and the center and an oil hole drill to the side is this a '77 shaft does all this revised lubrication all fit in with what I have? I'm confused. Hard to say but the oil pump gears appear to look new http://i53.tinypic.com/nbp5qc.jpg complete with over spray on TC bush http://i55.tinypic.com/261yb2x.jpg

Front clutch has aluminum 4 pinion planetary (non steel spline) 5 x grooved friction must be the skinnies as they measure up somewhere around the .060'' mark thick and non-hardened steels, second hand thrust washers, hard band. It only has 9 springs on the clutch piston should it have 15?? And the clearance gap was .077'' which I take is good?
http://i54.tinypic.com/2eg6u5t.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/k34y28.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/258pblw.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/15i5gg6.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/2mfwzo2.jpg


A new fancy pants sun shell
http://i55.tinypic.com/11v060o.jpg

Rear clutch has 4 pinion, steel annulus, 4 smooth plates and non hardened steels. It had a clutch clearance of .066'' more than double at what I'd be looking at I'd say.
http://i52.tinypic.com/11w5ym0.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/23a886.jpg

The drum looks as though it has had a bit of a hammering internally
http://i52.tinypic.com/ousldx.jpg

It has an ultimate sprag
http://i54.tinypic.com/qs1e8o.jpg
And only has 4of the 6 of the bolts holding it in, is this right?
http://i56.tinypic.com/262qid5.jpg


The accumulator didn't have any spring just the spool in the hole, is this right for a manual VB?
The rear and front servo don't appear to have billets, is it required and on both or just the rear?
http://i52.tinypic.com/2mruwys.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/110x72p.jpg

[FLG]

Who did your transmission?

Have you tried contacting them??


BTW these people seem to know what there doing

http://www.autotransmissions.com.au

They have some videos up on you tube about 727 rebuilding, i cant vouch for them but there a lot closer to you than you are to us.

[Yeahmate]

Lets just say someone down the road from FHO, who Tim recommended
Don't really see the point of contacting them, if this is the best they can do  looks like a cowboy effort .

Yeah that crowd is about 3 thousand mile away from me.

So I'll rebuild this myself, a least I know it will be done a lot better than this POS I got here.

[FLG]

Spill the beans! The more people know the better, and DO contact them...dont take crap like that!


This is a great book on how to

http://www.borders.com/online/store/TitleDetail?sku=1101500328

Finally, John and Jamey (RD) are our resident tranny gurus if ya got questions.

[charger Downunder]

Yep overseas sale lets slap it together. Won't get a return.
They need to be closed up

[Yeahmate]

Who did your transmission?

Have you tried contacting them??


BTW these people seem to know what there doing

http://www.autotransmissions.com.au

They have some videos up on you tube about 727 rebuilding, i cant vouch for them but there a lot closer to you than you are to us.

Funny you should mention this guy he came to an Aussie site not long after your last post and replied to my post with

From what i can see, here is my opinion bellow.

To your questions that i have not made comments to would mean are o.k as is.

-Trans build date is june/july 1971

-Output shaft would need some buffing or cleaning with emery paper on lathe. (once oil gets to it, it would help the surface rust stay at a very minimum)

-Extension housing bush looks new, not sure why the extra play. (i have never had a new bush undersize)

-Change your stator rings (pump to front drum) to teflon type. Your cast rings will eventually groove your drum as you are using increased pressures through your valve body set up. That bright builder probably fitted what he got given in the rebuild kit.

-Those grind marks on your pump stator are to assist the apply of your 3rd gear (front clutch drum)
Can you please send me a better pic of that modification as i cannot see clear, i want to make sure he hasnt hacked it for you.

-Using that Pump - front drum - to rear drum set up will work.

-Pump gears are not new, but in good condition from what i can see. I would upgrade to a new set to give the inside gear tabs a new life if you want peace of mind, or if you see any wear on the pump gear tabs (the tabs that come into contact with the converter neck) the gears are not expensive. Approx 45+gst from your aussie distributor.

- Has that converter bush got over spray or is it pitted ?

-Front drum 60" frictions are your thin type (as you have)

-I would include Kolene steel for both packs.

-Your thrust washer set from what i can see will work. if you want to bullit proof and go the extra few $$, i would fit a new set.

-front clutch springs:
Pending requirement of the v/body builder (a&a) how many springs they advise to fit to suit there valve body set up.
( if you are thinking .... maybe 15 springs will be too heavy to activate the clutch, remember... we have the stator mod to assist in top gear apply.) thats why i wouldnt mind getting a better view of the stator mod.

-Front drum clearance:
If possible check with the v/body builder to see what specs they want to see. I usually set them up at ( race .070" +/- .005" ) (street .085" +/- .005")
Note: when using your 5 friction set up

-Rear clutch clearance: .030 - .040 (the clearance they had at .066" was definitely too high)

-Rear band drum has had some history.Replace to be certain. (that part of wear will only come into contact with the outer part of the rear anulus) You can try and clean it up, but for my liking and for any possible internal out of balance issues i would be replacing.

-Accumulator set up on a manual v/b (in most cases) does not need the spring in place.

-Rear servo:
I am not sure how compressible the piston to piston spring is?
The builder may have achieved this by installing a harder piston to piston spring or a sleeve / shim inserted between the 2 pistons to take away any slack/ travel. (this can be viewed within the smaller spring)
When compressing the pistons against each other they should not travel too far. The perfect end result would be a solid piston.
Large spring should be heavier than stock, retainer should be thicker than stock.

On the billet servo you get:
-solid servo (no movement as stock spring, cushioned type)
-upgraded servo return spring
-h/duty retainer (the retainer in the photo looks stock)

- Front servo you can leave as is.

- I would also include if you do not already have in your trans:
4.2 front band apply lever
H/duty front band strut



As i am not sure of the below:
-what type, weight vehicle it is in
-what % track / street use it will see
-how aggressive you will be with it
-What revs your motor will see

Your additional options would be:
-billet steel drum ( A safety precaution for any high rever, higher output trans. You can not include the steel drum and fit safety blanket/shield instead. this may solve any debris going through your floor but wont save the trans if it decides to let go)

-If serious with running numbers, you can go roller. This helps with keeping friction at a minimum thus less drag and less horsepower loss.

Really well done reply I thought. 

[Yeahmate]

Lot of people talk of going billet steel rear drum, is this the band drum or the clutch retaining drum, and why not go aluminum?

[Ghoste]

They can both be replaced with aluminum parts but typically the rear clutch retainer in a super stock or stock eliminator car will be aluminum because the light weight can be used to advantage and those cars usually have a religious maintenance and inspection schedule.  Big horsepower cars should go with the steel. (IMO)

[Yeahmate]

Thanks Ghoste, I had crossed wires I thought it was the rear drum that could be in danger of exploding with the sprag let go, I see now it's the front, so I had a steel one ordered 

[Ghoste]

What about "Torqueflites by Randy", anybody know much about them?

[oldcarnut]

Jamey (RD) is rebuilding my tranny for me.  Myself not being very technical minded on the 727 I just told him how I was wanting to use it and he took it from there.  Real easy to talk with.  There was a lot of closer places in SC that could have done it than sending it to Kansas but I felt besides the other folks here good recommendations for him,  it was good to have someone in the hobby with an interest in the cars as well  .  I'd rather work with some of the guys here that share their advise and knowledge to help others freely than someone in a shop somewhere whose only interest is how much is in my wallet. 
David

[FLG]

Jamey did my tranny I havnt gotten to use itt just yet but sure does look nice