CAM sugestions for a 383

[ChgrSteve67]

I had my motor rebuilt less than 5,000 miles ago and I have a rocker arm / lifter tick.

I have not pulled the valve cover yet to see what is going on so worse case is I have a lifter gone bad and a CAM that will need to be replaced.

I put in a MOPAR Purple shaft CAM that many have poo pooed with the following specks.
P4286677 231/231 Duration @ 0.050" 0.455/0.455" LIFT

In the even I need to replace my CAM and lifters what would be some good recomendations / sugestions.

This is a street motor not a race motor.
I want a nice little rumble and decient performance.

383, 4 bbl 650 cfm, eddy 383 performer intake, stock bore, HP exhaust manifolds, MSD dist, Stock heads w/HD Springs

-Steve

[firefighter3931]

Steve, what torque converter and rear end gearing is in your car ? 



Ron

[ChgrSteve67]

got a 5 speed and a 3.55 Suregrip

No power brakes or power steering.

[firefighter3931]

This is the same profile i recommeneded to Curtis (Bull) for his 383 4 speed with manifold exhaust. You might need to change your valvesprings depending on what's currently installed but other than that, this is a drop in deal. The split pattern wide LSA grind works well with restrictive exhaust. 

http://www.crower.com/misc/cam_spec/cam_finder.php?part_num=32242&x=47&y=15

The Crower part # is 32242

A compatible valvespring is the Comp Cams #911 which has enough coilbind room and is the correct spring rate for that application. It works fine with the factory retainer & valvelocks as well 



Ron

[ChgrSteve67]

manifold exhaust ?   can you explain this to me briefly.

I will have to go back to the engine builder to see if they can tell me what the spring pressure is on the springs they installed.

Any ideal on what kind of attitude I can expect from this CAM?

I appreciate the help.

[firefighter3931]

manifold exhaust ?   can you explain this to me briefly.

I will have to go back to the engine builder to see if they can tell me what the spring pressure is on the springs they installed.

Any ideal on what kind of attitude I can expect from this CAM?

I appreciate the help.

Steve, HP manifolds are considered restrictive as compared to long tube headers. A tight lobe cam profile (108 lsa for example) does not work well due to the lack of scavenging with those manifolds. The Crower grind i suggested has  a wider 112* lsa and also additional duration on the exhaust lobe to allow the engine to exhale better (with that restrictive exhaust).

This cam is a step or two up from the current cam....it will have some lope at idle and your off idle throttle response will be much sharper. It will also make more power due to the increased valve lift. This is a very nice cam in a mild to warmed over 383. 


Expect a big improvement in bottom end power and torque. 



Ron

[ChgrSteve67]

Thanks Ron!

Appreciate the time and explination.

I will let you know what I find out this weekend when I pull my covers and see what is going on.

I may decide to replace the CAM anyways but at a time when its more convient.

-Steve

[firefighter3931]

You're welcome Steve....more than likely you have a collapsed lifter that won't pump up which is causing the ticking noise. Sometimes a leaking exhaust manifold/header will make a ticking noise that can be mistaken for a bad lifter so have a look at that as well. 

Let us know what you find 



Ron

[skip68]

 Steve, I just had the same type of problem as you.   "Mopar performance cam & lifters"...         I had just about 5k miles on mine also.   I think my problem was bad oil with low zinc.        What are you using for oil ?   

[ChgrSteve67]

Castrol GTX 10W40

[skip68]

I don't think that oil has enough zinc in it.         I am using Valvoline VR1 and adding EOS to it at every oil change this time.         The VR1 race oil does have good zinc levels but I want to be safe.    I have a feeling part of your problem is oil related.        This has happened to so many motors in the last few years it's not even funny.   

[ChgrSteve67]

I'm hoping its a collapsed lifter and no damage.

I ordered some ZDDPlus that I will add after I figure out what is going on.

If I need to replace my CAM and lifters I will probably add the ZDDPlus and hope it hold together for my trip to Vegas and back.  If its just a collapsed lifter I will replace it and leave well enough alone. If it all goes to hell I guess I will be rebuilding my motor again and will probably look for a stroker kit and maybe alumn heads along with a new cam.

-Steve (hoping for the best, expecting the worse)

[skip68]

     I bet you will be fine.         If not, we will change your cam when you get here.   

[ChgrSteve67]

 

[Dans 68]

   I bet you will be fine.         If not, we will change your cam when you get here.   

...b  r  i  n  g    m  o  r  e    t  o  o  l  s... (spoken with the tone and cadence of that classic line "send more cops" from "Return of the Living Dead") 


Kidding.     I think we'll find all we need in Vegas. And more.... 

Steve, have you thought of using Brad Penn oil? I can pick you up a case and deliver it to Vegas (or, rather when we meet Thursday morning on the 25th. You have the extra gear). 

Dan

[ChgrSteve67]

I though it was a joke at first so I looked it up.
http://www.bradpennracing.com/Default.aspx

So do you run this instead of regular oil or replace a few quarts with this?
Would there be a problem running break in oil all of the time?

I looked and there is a place in West Sacramento that sells it.

I'm just waiting at this time until this weekend so see where I stand with my problem.

[Dans 68]

I only run the 20-50 Brad Penn oil year round in the '68. Great stuff.   Do a search on Brad Penn oil here and Moparts to get the generally positive opinions. What break-in oil are you thinking about? And take lots of pics this weekend...I want to see what I'm going to have my hands into in VegasMikes garage...  

Dan

[ChgrSteve67]

The bottle on the main page says SAE Breakin Oil and talks about ZDDP. The others listed don't

So maybe I'm just not understanding that they all have the correct amount of ZDDP.
http://www.bradpennracing.com/Products/Racing-Oils.aspx

If all of the Oil grades they sell have the correct amount then its all good.

Is a special filter required or is the standard PH8A fram filter ok.

[Dans 68]

They have more than enough ZDDP. Here is the quote from their website:

"The Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils contain the higher level of anti-wear (ZDDP – zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) and enhanced film strength so critical to proper high performance engine protection. The Penn-Grade 1® oils "typical" 1,500 ppm Zinc (Zn) and 1340-1400 ppm Phosphorus (P) content provide the needed anti-wear protection to critical engine parts, such as piston/cylinder walls, roller cams under heavy valve spring pressure and especially those that employ a solid "flat tappet" type system. As important as the chemistry is to the Penn-Grade 1® oils, it is by no means the whole story. The unique base oil cut used to refine the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oils maintain a tremendous affinity to metal surfaces. This naturally occurring "metal wetting" characteristic enables the oil to stay put on your highly stressed engines and makes the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oil resist slinging for an extended period of time. Also, rest assured in knowing that the Penn-Grade 1® High Performance Oils are 100% Made in the USA."

Standard oil filters will not be negatively affected by the Brad Penn, but I would go with a Napa Gold 1515 (or comparable Wix) filter over the Fram. It is a better filter. The photos below illustrate what I use in my '68.

Dan

[firefighter3931]

Brad Penn is excellent lube....i run it in my car with an EP additive. Use the napa gold filter and avoid Fram at all costs !

Steve, maybe you should drain the oil and inspect it closely for shiny particles. Cut the oil filter apart and inspect it as well. Install a new Napa filter and some BP racing 20/50 oil as soon as possible. 



Ron

[skip68]

    You've got to run a high zinc racing oil and additive.    I ran regular oil after break-in and got just about 5k miles before my cam bearings and a few lifters went.        VegasMike came up a few weeks ago and swapped the cam, lifters, bearings, rods, timming chain/gears and a few odds and ends.   Now she runs like a clock.        It's only a 1 to 2 day job so don't worry.       Good luck Steve.      I'm sorry if this scares you a bit but it's better to find out now before the engine stops running.       

[ChgrSteve67]

Thanks Skip,
I'm not scared just a little down beat having to deal with this instead of getting ready for the trip.
I have to go to LA next week so my time to deal with this nonsense is very short.
I have spent a lot of time finishing my car and to have a possible catastrophic failure like this now is really sucks.

Got anther suggestion for Oil?
Something that is available at a local store?
The three location for BP in my area are all someones house.

[Dans 68]

...The three location for BP in my area are all someones house.

Yep, they are "distributors" as the big boy stores don't sell enough to make it worth their while. I would buy from a residence (just make sure the caps have not been opened.  ).

Dan

[ChgrSteve67]

I was re-reading the post.

I'm kinda punchy this morning.
Yesterday was a full day at work, I left at 4:30PM and had to be back at 10:15PM last night for a system update that lasted till 4:00AM this morning. Went home and got about 1:45 minutes of sleep so I could get up and be back at work at 7:30AM this morning in case something sent sideways.

Since my time is limited I think I'm going to go with the following this weekend.

Pull the cover and see if I can see anything obvious.
Drain the oil and cut the filter open to see if there are any signes of metal shavings.
Probably pull the intake and look at the lifters and pray for one that is collapsed.

I think I will go with the follow Oil when putting it all back together.
Valvoline VR1 20-50
NAPA Gold 1515 filter
1 bottle of ZDDPlus - talked with the company this morning and I should have it tomorrow.

If my CAM is destroyed I will go with the Crower CAM 32242 and a new set of lifter.

I just called the engine builder to find out what springs they installed on the heads and they are no longer in business.
However
I talked with the owner that bought the company.
He said if I can find the invoice number he has access to the old companies documents.
Now to go through my folder that is 6 inches thick of reciepts and invoices.

[firefighter3931]

That sounds like a good plan Steve. It's only 8 bolts and 10minutes work to remove the intake manifold. Check the lifters for sign of collapse and look closely at the cam lobes for any sign of abnormal wear. It wouldn't hurt to pull the rocker shafts and pushrods and then inspect each lifter individually for signs of wear or cupping.

Make sure to replace them in their respective holes....no mixing up or it will cause failure. If everything looks good just put it back together and run it with the new oil and zzdp+ with the Napa filter. If you have to replace a single lifter (assuming collpsed lifter not worn lifter) make sure to run the engine up at 2000 for 20 minutes to break-in the lifter and mate it to the cam lobe....same deal as breaking in a new camshaft/lifters.

Hopefully it's just a collapsed lifter and you'll be on your way to Vegas. 

Let us know if you find anything shiny in the oil & filter.


Ron

[ChgrSteve67]

 

[skip68]

My fingers are crossed for you Steve.         You can get the Valvoline VR1 20/50 off road/race oil at NAPA.   That's what I did.     

[skip68]

Checker Auto parts has the oil also.       

[ChgrSteve67]

picked up oil and filters yesterday.

ZDDP+ is supose to show up today.

A few new lifters and cam lube is sitting on my porch right now.

Short of cadastrophic failure I should be able to see what is going on and fix it (patch it) Saturday.

I got my fingers crossed.

I found the invoice to my engine rebuild and called the owner back.
Gave him the information and he said he would look it up and see what information the previous shop kept.
If I have to replace the CAM and Springs I'm fucked.

Anyone know of a good spring replacement tool so I would not have to take the heads off?

Steve (Still palnning for the worse because thats the way my luck rolls)

[skip68]

I think you can rent the spring tool.       

[skip68]

It's Sat.       Give us some good news Steve.   

[ChgrSteve67]

Just got home and I have good news and bad news to report.

I pulled out all of the lifters on the pass side and none of them are improperly worn, the cam also looks good.
Springs and keepers look good.
Rocker arms look good and are wearing properly on the valves.
Push rods look good and are not bent or warn either.

I don't have anything to test the lifters and they all seem pretty solid.
I figured its got to be just a noisy lifter.
Since I had 4 new lifters I flipped a coin and replaced the 6 and 8 cylinder lifters.

put it all back together and ran the break in procedure for the new lifters

and

Drum roll







I still have a lifter knock.      


So......


I'm going to get 4 more new lifters and replace the 4 remaining lifters next Saturday.      

I have to fly out to LA Sunday around 1PM so no more work this weekend.


I tried running the motor with the valve cover off to see if I could figure out which lifter was making noise but I don't have the clips that cover the oil holes so needless to say I ended up with oil all over the place.  

Needless to say I will not be buying any lottery tickets this weekend.

-Steve

[skip68]

    Dammit.            Keep us posted Steve.   

[68blue]

Ouch, that's got to be frustrating. Remember playing that crapshoot back in the 70s, and losing at it.

[ChgrSteve67]

New lifters are on the porch.

Now if I can just get out of LA so I can install them.

The earthquake this morning was lots of fun.
Nice little 4.4
I can't believe they made such a big deal of it on the news this morning.

-Steve

[firefighter3931]

Good luck Steve, let us know how it goes. 


Ron

[Dans 68]

Yes, all of us are rooting for ya! The cruise south would not nearly be as much fun without you.    If I can help in any way let me know. 

Dan

[ChgrSteve67]

Thanks for the offer Dan.
I will let you know how it goes Saturday after I replace the other 4 lifters.

God this class I'm stuck in sucks.
I can't wait to get home.  T-minus 32 hours and counting.

[ChgrSteve67]

Made it home from LA

Flight was 1 1/2 hours late.
I guess there was a problem with the plane and they had to switch it out.

Good to be home.

Tomorrow should be a good day.

[69bronzeT5]

Good luck Steve.....hoping for the best!

[ChgrSteve67]

Final report

I replaced the other 4 lifters today and no joy.  Tick, Tick, Tick   


Well at this point the only other thing it can be is an exhaust leak.
I start taking the exhaust manifold off and I'm missing two nuts between the 2 & 4 cylinder ports.   

I find some nuts, replace the exhaust gasket put it all back together and no Tick, Tick, Tick.   

Oh well, I guess a lot of drama for a little problem.

Well at least I know now everything is good and I'm good to go for Las Vegas.

I still have not heard back from the machine shop about what springs they put in my motor.

I think I'm still going to plan for a cam swap out but some time durring the summer when I have time to screw with it.

Also, its a good thing I'm running the right oil & additive now too.

Thanks for all of your help and support   

-Steve

[Dans 68]

 Good news!     I'm still throwing my dash back together but that is small potatoes. We are a go for Thursday morning. 

Dan

[skip68]

Great news Steve.      

[firefighter3931]

Good to hear it's fixed Steve. Often it's the simple things we overlook that are the source of our problems. 

Enjoy the drive to Vegas 



Ron

[BSB67]

Is there some characteristic about this cam that you do not like?  There is always a better cam, but I've had good experiance with that cam.  FWIW, that cam's actual 0.050" duration is 222 degrees.  MP exagerates there 0.050 numbers.

[ChgrSteve67]

Just looking for a better CAM.

I think my motor could still run better and stronger with a better CAM.

Easier to do it on my terms than the CAM and Lifters terms.