Get ready, Chevy Volt due this November. Update!!!

[elacruze]

You make no sense.
Lets try this again.  Forget about the electric part o.k?  You buy it brand new.  The batteries are fully charged.  You drive 40 miles.  The small gas engine fires up and powers the generator that powers the high tech batteries that power electric motors that power the car.  You never ever again plug it in. You get over 100 mpg running on gas. Where is the electric issue?
2) Electric cars can't beat gas cars?  You need to hit You Tube and watch a little electric Toyota blow away a BMW M car and a Z06 vette.

How about the Tesla? 0 to 60 in 3.9

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Yeah lets compare with fork lifts.

Is that the best you can do, comparing apples to athlete's foot?

Let's begin with the performance aspect.

A 'proof of concept' car beating a tire-spinning ferrari? A rolling-start win against a porsche? An 11-second 1/4 mile?
Do you think somehow that these events prove that electrics do/can/will outperform gasoline engines?
Have you ever seen a gasoline engined car run faster than an 11-second 1/4 mile?
Have you ever seen a gasoline engined car which can run an 11-second 1/4 mile go farther than 150 miles without refueling?
Have you ever seen a gasoline engined car which can run an 11-second 1/4 mile, go farther than 150 miles without refueling, and has a top speed of more than 110mph?

Everybody reading this can go downtown Saturday night and point to 30 cars with licence plates that will smoke that electric.
The 110mph top speed is ridiculous in anything more than a 4 cylinder passenger car.

Your argument fails epically. A fair comparison would be that electric car against a F1 or Top Sportsman car, but we don't have to go that far to prove the point.

Next up is fuel mileage. That argument fails as well, and here's why;

Moving a car down the road takes energy. In your argument, the little engine that could runs a generator which runs electric motors which move the car down the road. Converting the energy from gasoline to electric is something less than 100% efficient. So, it's safe to say that if the gasoline engine alone wouldn't get 100mpg out of the car, neither will the same engine running a generator.

Now, if you want to make some sense of the claim, we begin with a fully-charged battery; then we add the energy from the gasoline, and regenerative braking system. With all that stored energy added in, you may achieve 100 miles traveled for each gallon burned over the entire tankful. Again, that's not the same as saying the car gets "100mpg" because you have to pay to charge the battery in the first place.

So to sum this up, You're spouting about something that doesn't exist. In carefully crafted tests, electrics look good. In the real world, they do not best *any* real world gasoline powered vehicles in *any* performance category.

Don't make me get out my LPG and CNG gun. 

[1969chargerrtse]

The best way to handle all your incorrect points is to just say. Wrong.

Gee I guess the car isn't coming out in November either?


One last point though.  I grabbed some video's off YT for a quick point to show you when, you said   , sorry, "no electric car is going to best gasoline engines in the performance department anytime soon."

The gas engine has been out for how long?  
A little new electric Mazda zipped by a big bad 10 Cly Viber with ease. Where will the electric car and power be in 100 years?

Here, how's 7 seconds?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRpMV-Gf0hA&feature=related

Oh, one last thing silly person.  The rolling start race was to shut up those that said the Porsche lost because of it's spinning tires, but you didn't get that.

[elacruze]

The best way to handle all your incorrect points is to just say. Wrong.

Gee I quess the car isn't coming out in November either?

One last point though.  I grabbed some video's off YT for a quick point to show you when, you said   , sorry, "no electric car is going to best gasoline engines in the performance department anytime soon."

The gas engine has been out for how long?  
A little new electric Mazda zipped by a big bad 10 Cly Viber with ease. Where will the electric car and power be in 100 years?

Mmm hmm. See how your story changes? Let me quote you;

"Finally the Chevy Volt is due out in a couple States this November.  There is talk already how you will see one on YouTube blowing the doors off any muscle car of any era."

Technically I guess you didn't actually say the car would do anything, you said there is 'talk' about how we 'will see' one yada yada.
I guess that's true enough, people do say silly things like that all the time.

Will you admit to subscribing to the idea that the Chevy Volt will 'blow the doors off any muscle car of any era'? Or would you like to back up some on that? All the youtube stuff you show is of prototypes, not Chevy Volts.

Did the Mazda best the Viper in a standing start 1/4 mile? On a track with any traction?
Did the Mazda best the viper in top speed, or distance?
I'll grant you that if you count fuel mileage as a performance category the Mazda probably covers the Viper.

You failed to address any of my points in regards to fair comparisons. "performance category" being the operative phrase here.

Do you have a point to make about how long gasoline engines have been around? actually if you look back, electric motors have been around longer than gasoline engines (by about 30 years). Your statement is as invalid as your research.

As I said before, an electric vehicle may show well in tests carefully crafted to show an electric vehicle well.

Where will electric cars be in 100 years? I dunno. Would you care to point out how that's relevant to your assertions?
You started out talking about a car supposedly available in November 2010 not 2110.

If the best way for you to handle my points is to say "wrong"  then I guess we'll just leave it at that.

[1969chargerrtse]

The best way to handle all your incorrect points is to just say. Wrong.

Gee I quess the car isn't coming out in November either?

One last point though.  I grabbed some video's off YT for a quick point to show you when, you said   , sorry, "no electric car is going to best gasoline engines in the performance department anytime soon."

The gas engine has been out for how long?  
A little new electric Mazda zipped by a big bad 10 Cly Viber with ease. Where will the electric car and power be in 100 years?

Mmm hmm. See how your story changes? Let me quote you;

"Finally the Chevy Volt is due out in a couple States this November.  There is talk already how you will see one on YouTube blowing the doors off any muscle car of any era."

Technically I guess you didn't actually say the car would do anything, you said there is 'talk' about how we 'will see' one yada yada.
I guess that's true enough, people do say silly things like that all the time.

Will you admit to subscribing to the idea that the Chevy Volt will 'blow the doors off any muscle car of any era'? Or would you like to back up some on that? All the youtube stuff you show is of prototypes, not Chevy Volts.

Did the Mazda best the Viper in a standing start 1/4 mile? On a track with any traction?
Did the Mazda best the viper in top speed, or distance?
I'll grant you that if you count fuel mileage as a performance category the Mazda probably covers the Viper.

You failed to address any of my points in regards to fair comparisons. "performance category" being the operative phrase here.

Do you have a point to make about how long gasoline engines have been around? actually if you look back, electric motors have been around longer than gasoline engines (by about 30 years). Your statement is as invalid as your research.

As I said before, an electric vehicle may show well in tests carefully crafted to show an electric vehicle well.

Where will electric cars be in 100 years? I dunno. Would you care to point out how that's relevant to your assertions?
You started out talking about a car supposedly available in November 2010 not 2110.

If the best way for you to handle my points is to say "wrong"  then I guess we'll just leave it at that.

'then I guess we'll just leave it at that"

Thank You.

[BrianShaughnessy]

I'm not in the market as yet - given the expected price of a Volt... but I look forward to a day when I can have an affordable / comfortable / safe commuter car that gives a big middle finger to the big oil companies.  I don't want to drive a midgetmobile,  chances are I need all wheel drive capability and such.

My green attitude is not primarily a environmental issue to me as it is the other green...  it's a monetary issue.   Big oil has had their turn running our economy for a century.  F'em all.

It has nothing to do with my Charger(s).   There will be gas for them for quite awhile.   But that's only a portion of my fuel costs.    I'd love to find a way to give a big middle finger to the gas / electric industries too and run my house for next to nothing also but the affordable technolocy isn't there yet.      

[chargerboy69]

I am personally not interested in the car.  It resembles a Prius to me actually.

Now when GM starts to build an electric 3500 1 ton Crew Cab Long Bed 4X4 truck which can pull what I need it to pull then I will be interested.  Until then, I will pass.

[Cooter]

I am personally not interested in the car.  It resembles a Prius to me actually.

Now when GM starts to build an electric 3500 1 ton Crew Cab Long Bed 4X4 truck which can pull what I need it to pull then I will be interested.  Until then, I will pass.

AMEN! I can't believe nobody's mentioned how much the cost of repairs are on these "green" electric cars...That new "Prius" turd cost around $6500.00 for the Electric part of the car IF it ever burns out..

[BB1]

I think there are some GM sites with people that you would love to hold hands and listen to the buzz of a nice electric motor.

For me it the rumble of a V8 that I want under my foot.

It's equivalent to the feel of a Harley vs an electric scooter, and the scooter cost 3 times more. Good luck with your choice.

[1969chargerrtse]

I own a gas guzzling 40 year old muscle car remember?  I dumped 45 grand in it. I must really love it. I also love all modes of transportation. I have a Honda 50, quads, a little gas scooter, generators, mowing And snow blowing things. I've had trikes, bikes, a 6 wheel 2 cycle drive in the lake or climb hill thing, a hover craft, hang glider, and lord knows what else?  I always say ". I love the piston ". But I also love new technologies. So bring on gas smelling cars along with hybrids and the new all electric gas engine/generator VOLT!!!!  How can you not appreciate new technologies?  Some of you need to go back to a horse or walking.

[BB1]

So,... you work for GM I'm betting.

Marketing is the key they say.

But remember, new technology has its benefits and its problems. It took 100 years to perfect the gas engine and oil supply lines to support it.

It might take 50 years to make the electric car viable and replace the gas engine.

It will never be cool to pop the hood and say wow look at the chrome on that electric motor.
If drag cars became all electric, I will stay away along with a lot of others.
It simply has no life, just like a microwave and to my knowledge the gas stove is still around.

People make choices that stats can't follow.

[elacruze]

It will never be cool to pop the hood and say wow look at the chrome on that electric motor.
If drag cars became all electric, I will stay away along with a lot of others.
It simply has no life, just like a microwave and to my knowledge the gas stove is still around.

People make choices that stats can't follow.

Don't be so sure-perhaps in a Hundred Years...

[1969chargerrtse]

Never worked for GM in any way. It's not about GM at all, can't believe you asked that?  Says a lot about your thinking.

Here go google the Audi Etron coming out in 2011
A high-performance sports car with a purely electric drive system
Audi presents the highlight of the IAA 2009: the e-tron, a high-performance sports car with a purely electric drive system. Four motors – two each at the front and rear axles – drive the wheels, making the concept car a true quattro. Producing 230 kW (313 hp) and 4,500 Nm (3,319.03 lb-ft) of torque, the two-seater accelerates from 0 to 100 km/h (0 – 62.14 mph) in 4.8 seconds, and from 60 to 120 km/h (37.28 – 74.56 mph) in 4.1 seconds. The lithium-ion battery provides a truly useable energy content of 42.4 kilowatt hours to enable a range of approximately 248 kilometers."
"

[BB1]

Oh lighten up gezzz.  



hmmmm

[1969chargerrtse]

Oh lighten up gezzz.  



hmmmm

Im cool.  
check out the Audi Etron though. It looks nothing like those things. My thought is the less gas tomorrows car use, the more there is at a cheap cost for my gas guzzling Charger. Most important though that we are not dependent on others. That's number one for me.

[rt green]

electric cars. let it happen. more gas for the charger

[PocketThunder]

Jeez Rob, you start up a friendly post about the Volt and you're taking a beating...   

[1969chargerrtse]

Jeez Rob, you start up a friendly post about the Volt and you're taking a beating...   

  I love you!!!  Finally someone to see what I'm going through!  OMG!  Exactly. Thanks, you made my day!

[elacruze]

Electric vehicles will happen, are happening, and will be way better than most people think. (segway, anyone?)

Performance comparisons aside, electrics have many desirable properties that gas engines lack; They don't explode and burn when you crash (well not as easily or as badly) Drivability is much much better; with digital controls there is almost nothing to wear out-durability will be enormous compared to piston engines.
Oh yeah, they're quiet.

Forklifts may appear stodgy on the outside, but I've seen plenty with 10,000 hours on them with no major overhauls to the electrics. Compute that on your car at 50mph and it comes to half a million miles. With brushless motors, they aren't even dirty anymore.

Locomotives are actually more fuel efficient with electric drive motors because they reduce slippage at the track, especially with the new digital controlled motors.

GM's also using electric motor torque assist in their automatic transmissions-
http://www.gminsidenews.com/index.php?page=trans_guide

We'll see the light at the end of the tunnel when somebody can produce an economical fuel cell to eliminate the batteries.

Certainly we can all agree they won't feel like gas engines nor replace them entirely as long as people can buy gas.

[1969chargerrtse]

  Nice, well said. In the article from Motor Tread they said it drove exactly like a gas engine car and there was no feel of any kind when the batteries stopped at 40 miles and the gas engine took over the electric power. I'm really excited about this, this gonna be cool. It'll only make me appreciate my old Charger even more, as I pump the carb to set the choke. Ha ha.

I started a thread about the Honda FCX clarity which is being used daily in CA on hydrogen and got just as beat up. But you know what?  It's still out there. Big denial issues going on.

[lisiecki1]

Disadvantages of traditional Li-ion technology

Shelf life

A disadvantage of lithium-ion cells lies in their relatively poor cycle life: upon every (re)charge, deposits form inside the electrolyte that inhibit lithium ion transport, resulting in the capacity of the cell to diminish. The increase in internal resistance affects the cell's ability to deliver current, thus the problem is more pronounced in high-current than low-current applications. The increasing capacity hit means that a full charge in an older battery will not last as long as one in a new battery (although the charging time required decreases proportionally, as well).
Also, high charge levels and elevated temperatures (whether resulting from charging or being ambient) hasten permanent capacity loss for lithium-ion batteries.  The heat generated during a charge cycle is caused by the traditional carbon anode, which has been replaced with good results by lithium titanate. Lithium titanate has been experimentally shown to drastically reduce the degenerative effects associated with charging, including expansion and other factors.

At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that is full most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. However, a battery in a poorly ventilated laptop may be subject to a prolonged exposure to much higher temperatures, which will significantly shorten its life. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F). When stored at 40%–60% charge level, the capacity loss is reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.

Internal resistance

The internal resistance of lithium-ion batteries is high compared to other rechargeable chemistries such as nickel-metal hydride and nickel-cadmium, and it increases with both cycling and chronological age.  Rising internal resistance causes the voltage at the terminals to drop under load, reducing the maximum current that can be drawn. Eventually the internal resistance reaches a point at which the battery can no longer operate the equipment in which it is installed for an adequate period.

High drain applications such as power tools may require the battery to be able to supply a current that would drain the battery in 4 minutes if sustained (e.g. 22.5 A for a battery with a capacity of 1.5 A·h). Lower-power devices such as MP3 players, on the other hand, may draw low enough current to run for 10 hours on a charge (e.g. 150 mA for a battery with a capacity of 1500 mA·h). With similar battery technology, the MP3 player's battery will effectively last much longer, since it can tolerate a much higher internal resistance. To power larger devices, such as electric cars, it is much more efficient to connect many smaller batteries in a parallel circuit than to use a single large battery.

Safety requirements

Li-ion batteries are not as durable as nickel metal hydride or nickel-cadmium designs, and can be extremely dangerous if mistreated. They may explode if overheated or if charged to an excessively high voltage.  Furthermore, they may be irreversibly damaged if discharged below a certain voltage. To reduce these risks, lithium-ion batteries generally contain a small circuit that shuts down the battery when it is discharged below about 3 V or charged above about 4.2 V.  In normal use, the battery is therefore prevented from being deeply discharged. When stored for long periods, however, the small current drawn by the protection circuitry may drain the battery below the protection circuit's lower limit, in which case normal chargers are unable to recharge the battery. More sophisticated battery analyzers can recharge deeply discharged cells by slow-charging them to reactivate the safety circuit and allow the battery to accept charge again.

Other safety features are also required for commercial lithium-ion batteries:

shut-down separator (for overtemperature),
tear-away tab (for internal pressure),
vent (pressure relief), and
thermal interrupt (overcurrent/overcharging).
These devices occupy useful space inside the cells, and reduce their reliability; typically, they permanently and irreversibly disable the cell when activated. They are required because the anode produces heat during use, while the cathode may produce oxygen. Safety devices and recent and improved electrode designs greatly reduce or eliminate the risk of fire or explosion.

These safety features increase the cost of lithium-ion batteries compared to nickel metal hydride cells, which only require a hydrogen/oxygen recombination device (preventing damage due to mild overcharging) and a back-up pressure valve.

Many types of lithium-ion cell cannot be charged safely below 0 °C.

I'm just waiting for the first Li-Ion cell explosion in one of these cars.  I was on the Li-Ion battery test team for LMSO at JSC and the explosions can be interesting to say the least.  That being said, I really dig the tesla, but the price is ridiculous.  As far as any "mainstream" "green" vehicle, I find the vast majority to be severely lacking in appearance.  Also, at this point in time, I doubt very seriously any of these cars will be around as long as our beloved chargers.  Unless everyone that buys one just likes to throw money at something.

[Cooter]

There is a "Brand X" Electric S-10 Pick-up out there that runs in the 10's 1/4 Mile sure, but it cost out the ass to get that kinda performance from electric set up..I'm all about bang for the buck...Electric motors that produce the same power as say a 500 C.I. Gas Stroker engine, will no doubt cost four times as much...

Show me an electric motor that cost the same as a gas engine that produces more power for the same money and I'll be first in line....

[Brock Samson]

 there are many tesli around these parts, i just spent two days in the home of the tesla - silicon valley near Stanford Univ. where i saw maybe six of the things running around,.. yes they are moving production to southern Ca. to produce the upcomming sedan and  yes they did get a huge Govt. influx of capitol. but it seems to me the current tesla sports car (baised on a lotus BTW) is what you should be looking at and comparing not the yet to be introduced Volt...
but you guys go back to your bickering, I'll just get out of the way now..  

[Ghoste]

How does the current electric car technology fare in extremes of climate?

[RD]

i, personally, think it is cool to see these cars come out, from a technological perspective and a curiousity one.

whenever there is something new to the market, there can always be improvements, but at least they are starting.  this is more than what they did during my $3.99 a gallon days in the not so distant past.

I welcome this type of vehicle as it makes perfect economical and ecological sense.  I dont want to get rid of my mopar's, i never will, but an option like this will only allow for a more competitive market thus decreasing oil prices as the demand will drop.

[Mr.Woolery]

I see the Volt as essentially a GM one-upsmanship of the Prius.  If you're in the market for a fuel efficient new vehicle, then I think the Volt will be a good bet.  I'm fairly certain (remember reading) that the Volt will be able to plug into a 110v outlet to allow overnight charging, too...thus gaining back that initial 40mile range before needing to dip into the gas for the onboard generator.  Depending on driving habits, you could potentially drive a Volt and seldom (if ever) need to burn any gas at all.  If I recall correctly, the equivalent range cost (at least in CA) for a gallon of gas' worth of electricity if roughly 6 cents per gallon.  You could buy a gallon of gas for ~$3.00 around here and whatever the MPG is, or you could plug in and go the same distance for ~1/60th the cost.  Assuming the grid can handle it, I think that's a good idea from the consumers point of view.

I don't know about the environmental impact in their manufacture, though.

The one thing that pisses me off most about most hybrids is that they are NOT green cars.  For example, the Prius doesn't "break even" environmentally (when compared to traditional gas powered cars) until it's reached over 350,000 miles of use, despite it's mpg...which is unlikely to happen.  Hopefully the Volt does better in this arena.

Until I find that the Volt is a cleaner built car than the Prius I'm going to maintain that, at least for greenies, the best bet is to buy a used high MPG car from the 80's such as a Honda CRX HF or Geo Metro.  Greener on all fronts (manufacture and operation) than any of today's hybrids.  "Green" hybrid owners (thus far) are just deluding themselves.