MP .509 cam builds?

[elacruze]

I'm curious about your engines with the MP 509 cam. I know a lot of cars use them, but when discussing there always seems to be the scent of discontent around the performance. Mine is a .030" over 440 with (ancient build) TRW domed pistons, measured 11:1 static compression, DC Stage IV heads with SS cleanup in the bowls and gasket surface. Hooker Super Comp 2" headers through a bodgy home made 2.5" exhaust, no crossover and first-generation flowmasters. The cam is installed @108* centerline (if I recall correctly) and has 1.5:1 MP roller rockers.

I've only had two manifolds on it, first an Edelbrock CH4B with Holley 850DP. This combination absolutely ROCKED. I could mash it to the floor at 1200rpm and it would take it without hesitation or snorting, smooth and fast. There was no enormous cam surge, just blissful drivability.

Many years later (2003) I thought the CH4B dated and that I could get more power with a single-plane M1. No other changes were made except the ignition timing and jetting. (*edit*-I changed from Cast adjustable rockers to rollers) The car couldn't have made a bigger U-turn. It was certainly fast, but the cam comes on so strong at 3500 that it breaks the tires loose most of the time in 3rd (4.10 gear). First gear is useless and second is guaranteed to go up in smoke on the throttle. It's so harsh that I can't tell if it's faster or just scary. Drivability below 3000rpm is non-existent, jetting is a nightmare. I hate it. That said, I'm sure that a 750 would work better on the M1 but I'm moving to TBI when it goes back together anyway.

What's your .509 combination, and do you like it? Where does it come up short, where does it rock?

[skip68]

I've got the same thing.    My motor starts running good after 3000 rpm but is a dog under that.   I need gears as of right now I have the 2.76 gears.       Good for high speed but slow getting going.   If I bring it up to 3k in first and nail it, it starts spinning and fish tailing.  I hate the tuning and, well, I just am not happy with it at all.       When I get gears I'm sure it will be better but I just don't think it is the right cam for me.    I would like to see more bottom end power and a smoother idle....   

[elacruze]

I've got the same thing.    My motor starts running good after 3000 rpm but is a dog under that.   <snip>

What's your intake/carb/compression etc? Stick or Auto?

[skip68]

Torker 2 intake,  Demon race 750,  10.25 to 1, Ross race pistons,  auto,  custom cast heads like Indy, crane gold roller rockers, steel crank, MSD6AL, B&M 3000 stall.....   I think that's it...

[elacruze]

With the lower compression, high gears and auto you must have it worse than I do. Got a CH4B laying around? It would be interesting to see how it changed your motor.

Torker 2 intake,  Demon race 750,  10.25 to 1, Ross race pistons,  auto,  custom cast heads like Indy, crane gold roller rockers, steel crank, MSD6AL, B&M 3000 stall.....   I think that's it...

[oldschool]

try a performer rpm dualplane or even better a indy dualplane.it will wake up the low to mid range without killing top end to much.

[c00nhunterjoe]

i have a simliar cam to the mp 509, almost identical but  i cant place my fingers on the cam card as of right now but it is a racer brown .510 lift, 292 adv- 236 (maybe 238) at .050. cant recall the centerline right now but its either 108 or 110. i will have to look for my paperwork.  the engine is a 383 with roughly 11:1, stock iron heads, edlebrock torker. heddman 1 3/4 long tubes to 3 inch exhaust through flowmaster 50 series suv mufflers- no crossover pipe. carb is currently a 4779 holley out of the box tuning.  4 speed with 4.30's  but for the last 10 years it was a 727 with 2.76's.

i just installed the 750 but it had a 650 that i had tuned perfect to the engine. it has a crisp and healthy idle. 1300 rpm was about the norm. chopped real nice-this is the car as stated above but with the 650 and 3 inch old school 40 series flow's- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL2-43vYDYs .  at that time the car was an auto with 2.76's. it was very drivable but took a while to get up and go. most of that was the 28 inch tall tires and 2.76's. the power band came in around 2000 but the real power started at 3000 to 6500. it pulls hard up to that point but i am not balanced so i tried to not go over 6000 rpm. i could mash the throttle from an idle and it would still blow the tires off but it wasnt instant. they would start to spin right away and then as the rpm increased they would then just get blown away as you can see here- (now this is also on the automatic through old school 40 series and the 650, and also on pavement even though you see gravel out the windshield.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2j2qd2Deok
that combination was great but the plug readings always said the car was a little lean. there was instant throttle response and no bogging or hesitation at any rpm, load differences, and or speed changes.

given the tuning and current budget i was on i recently was able to convert to a 4speed, get my gears and buy a new carb.  i go tthe 4 speed installed and built my rear with the 4.30's and installed the 4779 holley 750 double pumper.  i have done absolutly no tuning to the carb yet. it is out of the box. came with no card so i dont know what jets, squirters or powervalve is installed. it is in need of tuning but even with the tuning way off the car is still great to drive with the new changes. the idle is alot lower and smoother now but thats because the car is running really rich. i have a minor bog at low rpm's but carb tuning will resolve that. i beleive it's in the accelerator pump circuit- but thats another story for spring time.  With the new gears and trans swap the car is a blast. the gears made a huge difference in the car. it allows the engine to use its powerband much more efficiently. even with my stutter from off idle the car is much snappier then it was on the auto and 2.76's. i had always been pleased with the cam in the car but the high gears took a little away from the  low end. the 4 speed and mostly gear change got rid of any doubt i ever had in the cam. 4 speed cars typicly have more low rpm surge and issues than autos and i was worried about that going to the 4 speed but i have no problems. i can cruise down to about 1000-1100 rpm before i start to get any surge from the cam and it is minimal at that.
if i ever put another engine together i wouldnt hesitate to use this same grind again.
here is a 3k launch right after the 4 speed went in- this is with the 650 and 4.30's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw
this one is sidestepping the clutch at 1500 bogging to 1000 when it hooked up- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGGuRdr18b0

i am surprised the you were happy with the ch4b? at one time i had a dp4b which is the same thign but for a b motor. i hated it. the car lost tons of power going from the torker to the dp4b. i was told the torker was old and dated and to try that intake but it was horrible. it did have a little more low end grunt but not enough to trade the mid range and top end of the torker.  i have had a few friends that were un impressed with the m-1 intake as well.  for your car i would either go with the edlbrock performer rpm or a
torker II. i would also change the 2.5 pipes out for some 3 inch on your car. you will see a big difference. i saw big gains going from 2.5 to 3 and you have more cubes then me so i am sure you will see a difference.

[elacruze]

Both the CH4B and M1 manifolds are water under the bridge, I have a Hughes-prepped Edelbrock dual quad dual plane with Holley throttle body injection waiting to go on as soon as the car is together. I expect that will have excellent drivability and at least as much power as the M1 to boot.

I could never tell whether the M1 was significantly more powerful than the dual plane, because I never went to the track with either one and on the street it blew up the tires just the same with either one, just more violently at a higher rpm with the M1.

I think the key to using the .509 is compression, which I was trying to take a sample of here. I put my engine together in 1982, and asked for parts that would give me 10.5:1. Cyril Batten of Batten Heads must have known better and bumped it up a bit as the actual measured is exactly 11:1, and more recently my friend ran it in his modeling software and said that 11:1 was really what the cam wanted anyway.  I'm going to put a bunch of miles on it, then road trip it unless the shakedown proves out something that makes me stick in the 505" I just bought...

[b5blue]

My car came out it's drag racing days to me with MP 509 in it. Holley 850 eddie TM-7 high rise 915 closed chamber heads that were ported to the max and the customary headers. It would idle rough/lumpy mid was choppy and as expected WFO was balls to the walls. Changing to a six pack and HP manifolds then putting a 3.23 tamed it remarkably. Idle was still cammy sounding but steady, mid was solid and smooth and WFO with 1350 cfm made it feel like it had afterburners. Punched at 60mph it pulled you back in the seat and shot up over 110mph faster than anything that was ever around me on the interstate, the ex said (when she was behind me in her car) the car didn't look like it was pulling away...it looked like it shrunk down in size. 

[sixty8 chrgr]

I've had the .509 in a .060 over stroker (498 c.i.) for four years now. 1050 cfm Pro systems carb on an M1 S/P intake and Edlebrock alum heads. This motor is a flat top 9:1 combo with stock rods and forged crank. It is in my 2700# bracket Dodge Dart. The 3800 stall mates the TCI 727 to a 4.11 rearend (spooled.) 11.5 x 29.5 M/T slicks. This combination is a blast at the track. The car runs 10.80's @124 mph in the quarter with a 1.48 60'. This car pulls hard the whole way. MSD chip is set at 6300 rpm. I am building another motor for the Dart and I intend to put this motor with an 850 carb and dual plane in my charger street car. I have high expectations for the swap and I would not hesitate to build another 440 with the .509.