question on rust removal panel replacement

[Lord Warlock]

My 69 has been stored inside now for over 30 years, but it still has minor rust that needed to be cut out of the right rear quarter behind the wheel along the bottom edge mostly.  I've already cut the panel removing all the cancerous material and have a patch panel i can use to replace the metal with.  The problem is that in 40 years of car jobbery i've never needed to weld anything and while i've used spot welders in the past i haven't seen one since high school shop class.  (long time ago)

A fellow enthusiast pointed out that welding in a panel replacement isn't necessary as you could bond the panel on with adhesive rather than weld it in.  I'm not sure how i feel about this approach.  It would allow me to move forward with the rebuild work if i didn't have to weld it myself (and the car cannot be driven to a body shop to get welded...it would have to be towed both ways as it is not insured or registered)  Is panel bonding an acceptable way to replace a portion of a body panel?  I can probably rivet it on along the wheelwell and lower edge if necessary, but have always thought that welding was the right way to do this.  I've been putting it off because the trunk floor will need replacement as well and i figured a body shop would have to do that but the rear quarter is small enough where i could probably get away with bonding and minor shaping work.  (the damaged area is about 1 inch behind the wheelwell extending backwards to where the stripe covered the lowest portion of the quarter, it only crosses the first body line as it gets closer to the wheel (body line being the first factory bend below the side indicators)  However, currently i can't afford the cost of the trunk floor plus the body work needing work on the quarter and the trunk floor to be done at body shop.  (got kids in college-and its draining me)

I can always buy a welder, and use it to tack the piece in place with minor welds, but i've seen my attempts with a welder in the past and it wasn't a pretty sight, it would mean a bit of grinding and sanding afterwards to make it look decent.  tools aren't the issue, but buying a welder doesn't make much sense since i've never needed one before on any other car since this one, and i hate to buy one time use tools if i don't have to. 

Advice is appreciated.  I figure there should be enough of you out there that have worked the rust areas i'm talking about.  (I already fabricated patch areas around the back glass that will be invisible once the glass goes back in-so i've done some metal work on it already...makes me wish i had a friend with a welder locally that would pop over and do this cheap as it isn't that involved and the removal is already done. 

Lord Warlock

[Projekts]

I have also heard a lot about panel bonding but I wouldn't consider it for the repair. With all of the rivets, and adhesive strips which people usually screw into, it requires a lot of filler and opportunity for rust to get in. If high school shop class was a long time ago, you are in for a real treat welding equipment is lighter, cheaper, and easier to use. If you buy the gear, or borrow it from a friend then you get to use it for the fender and the trunkpan, you will save a lot of money over sending it to the body shop. My advice here would be to start on the trunkpan, it's good practice and by the time you get to the quarters you will be welding like a pro. Good luck on your project.

[tan top]

 glued on panels have no place on a old car !!  leave them for the  modern stuff   

[The70RT]

Like they said 

[Cooter]

Bonded panels are just as strong as a welded panel however, I prefer welding to bonding...

Warlock, welding is not all that hard to do...Just remember that contrary to popular belief, you DO NOT weld a solid bead the entire length of what your welding...The metal just won't take it...Spot weld about 2" apart until you get all the way to the end, then go back and weld until you have a line of spot welds..

[elitecustombody]

panel bonding adhesive works well for gluing on roof skins,quarter panels,rear body panels, but only at seams not on a patch in the middle of a panel,as it's been said, welding is not as bad as you think,just practice on junk fender for a while till you get the welder dialed in and get a hang of it  ,and please don't use screws or rivets

[Lord Warlock]

In my case its not in the middle of a panel, it is mostly along the edge of the panel except for about 4 inches behind the wheelwell at the level of the reflector.  My rust was pretty minor considering what i've seen on others here.  Just enough so i couldn't justify filling it over the swiss cheeze metal with fiberglass reinforced bondo.  I didn't want to do that after i saw what happened to the trunk when i fiberglassed it 15 years ago to seal up a few small holes.  (the whole center section of the trunk floor needs replacement now)  What i was considering doing if attempting to bond it would be to cut off a section just big enough to cover the damaged area and extend past the edge by a half inch or so, the very bottom edge of the new panel could fit over the original and fit over the bottom part of the wheelwell, making the only edge needing to be worked into the body the top edge of the new replacement panel.  I'd use a majority of the panel itself if i wanted to cut off the factory corner and get it to fit on the rear edge...but the factory corner is still pristine so didn't want to mess with the replacement that far back.  The rust damage actually stops about 8 inches from the edge of the corner piece.   

Is there a specific welder that is preferred for this type of job?  the welders i had experience with working on pipe welding on offshore rigs used rods about 18 inches long, the ones i see in the stores use a coil of wire.  And when i practiced pipe welding they used a butterfly type pattern or a figure 8 that kind of zippered around the pipe ends.  (I was a welders helper...i did the grinding, buffing and grunt work holding it in place) 

[green69rt]

In my case its not in the middle of a panel, it is mostly along the edge of the panel except for about 4 inches behind the wheelwell at the level of the reflector.  My rust was pretty minor considering what i've seen on others here.  Just enough so i couldn't justify filling it over the swiss cheeze metal with fiberglass reinforced bondo.  I didn't want to do that after i saw what happened to the trunk when i fiberglassed it 15 years ago to seal up a few small holes.  (the whole center section of the trunk floor needs replacement now)  What i was considering doing if attempting to bond it would be to cut off a section just big enough to cover the damaged area and extend past the edge by a half inch or so, the very bottom edge of the new panel could fit over the original and fit over the bottom part of the wheelwell, making the only edge needing to be worked into the body the top edge of the new replacement panel.  I'd use a majority of the panel itself if i wanted to cut off the factory corner and get it to fit on the rear edge...but the factory corner is still pristine so didn't want to mess with the replacement that far back.  The rust damage actually stops about 8 inches from the edge of the corner piece.   

Is there a specific welder that is preferred for this type of job?  the welders i had experience with working on pipe welding on offshore rigs used rods about 18 inches long, the ones i see in the stores use a coil of wire.  And when i practiced pipe welding they used a butterfly type pattern or a figure 8 that kind of zippered around the pipe ends.  (I was a welders helper...i did the grinding, buffing and grunt work holding it in place) 

Wow, lots of discussion needed here.  I  use a  small MIG (wire) welder.  It is a Hobart 124.  I learned to weld on 1/4" plate at the local high school.  Then I found out that welding on sheet metal is considerably different.  With thick steel it is fairly easy to lay down a nice bead.  If you try the same thing on 18 Ga sheet metal it will warp like crazy and burn through.  So you learn to do a lot of tack welds, each tack a few inches apart then come back with another series and then another, etc. till the seam is filled.

As far as cost goes, You can probably get a complete setup (welder, helmet, cart, and gas kit) for about $500.  Buy a bottle of gas and you are in business.  Final point, unless you like smoke and splatter don't use the flus core wire go with solid wire and a gas bottle.

[twodko]

FYI, nowadays you can rent any kind of welder you need. I'd look into a rental. Projelts has a good idea in beginning with the trunk pan. Keep us posted and as always we like pictures. Good luck buddy.

Tom

[Mike DC]

 
I've got nothing against panel bonding repairs when they are done right.


Anyone who says welding is more reliable & stronger .  .  .  factory welds, yes.  Amateur backyard restorer welds can be another story. 

And I've seen way too many "done by a professional at a real shop" welding jobs on old cars that look awful and dangerous IMHO. 

[Lord Warlock]

I figure i can do a better job than HPLAG or whatever his name is.  The charger project is a lifelong project it seems. Tack welding i can see being able to do that, but a good seam is another story.  Wish i had a spotwelder, but if i have to learn to weld, i guess i'll have to.  My goal with the car has always been that I do as much work on the car itself that i can figure out how to do.  It will never be a show car, i'm just hoping to get it back to roadworthy status soon.  I learned how to paint cars just so i could do that on my own, done enough of that to do the car, but in the process realized this section would not survive a minimum of 10 more years without showing more rust, so elected to go ahead and cut out the bad and do what i had to do.  All it seems to do is stretch out the project longer.  Lucky for me i don't need to drive this car for fun, my dd car is actually faster, but this is my lost youth.  

IF the center section, the lowered area and around the filler tube in the trunk is bad but the sides are solid and rustfree do I cut out the entire trunk or only the middle area that needs it? Taking it all out is a bit more of a project than i would want to get into, the bad center section i can cut out easy enough.  I had a leaky back window that probably leaked for 5 years or so before i put the car in a garage long term.  Most of the trunk is still solid, I could probably stand in the rusted section still but it wouldn't be safe to load the trunk with disc rotors.  There is a hole about 8 inches long where the tire used to mount to the trunk floor, and another along the left edge of where the gas tank sits underneath. (the tank is in great shape still).  The trunk floor is in pretty good condition for a 40 year old car.  Just not something i'd want to open up and show off once i get the rest of the car back on the road again.  

After experiencing flash burn in the eyes often enough when working the rigs, i'd hoped to avoid that forever. Nowadays abusing the eyes and other body parts tends to have more serious repurcussions than it did when i was younger and invincible.

[Lord Warlock]

Too bad i can't make the stud welder work to spot weld it in place....that thing is a breeze to work with, bought it to fix a spot on the rear valence, but been using it on the front fender to pull out most of the dip out of an old fixed dented front fender...if i could have accepted a single ripple that job would have been done 2 years ago, dings and ripples won't make it to the street on this car.

[green69rt]

I don't know about bonding.etc but once you have the equip and knowlege to weld everything else becomes a secondary consideration.  Bite the bullet. learn to weld!! Other questions will come up but this will not be a problem from now on.

[green69rt]

Final note on this from an amature welder, its not that hard!!  Find someone to show you how to do it ( I learned from the local high school!!!!)