1969 Dodge Daytona Bobby Allison Racer - Mecum Auction

[RD]

WELL THIS IS WHAT I WAS REPLIED WITH:

Thank you for your comments.  The seller represents that this car is real, indicates that Allison has personally inspected and authenticated it, and since Allison will be attending and representing the car at the auction, we will stand with this presentation unless something is presented to the contrary.   Since this is represented as a "test" car, there may be differences between it and the winged cars that actually ran that many of the general public may not know.



Referring specifically to comments like: "better get your facts straight, because the car you have is an abomination, no matter if bobby signed it or not, you are being fraudulent." are of little if no help to us.  While we do not warranty or guarantee the information presented, anytime there is concern about authenticity of a car, with real proof of that accusation, I can assure you we question as needed and take exception to what a few people have posted on a chat group.



Our dilemma is we have the original owner/driver saying it is real, documents support that, and comments from a general public who say they have questions.  Sans any other evidence, who would you believe?  Give us something more to work with and we would be happy to take this another step.





Tom Christmann

815.568.8888

[Ghoste]

Second sentence is pretty close to what I predicted they would say.

[Mopurr]

 I would have to take in the Bobby Allison verification with a very large grain of salt and not necessary believe that he is involved with trying to misrepresent this. With the knowledge that it is reported that he lost almost all former memories after the accident that almost killed him, it was reported that a lot of the stories he tells now are what have been told to him by others and I would think that possibly he would not remember details of the cars other than how it looked in a picture  and very well have not paid attention to details that are so easy to see by others.

I can see all of the odd stuff on this car too......and I am just a dumb girl that should not know these things.

The 305 statement is just so wrong unless they are saying that this "car" was tested with it and decided not to race with it..... but then again this car is so incorrect....it was probably a lack of the window plug that did it in and not the little engine......  Because we all know the famous story of the race and how well the car did with the little engine with great aero dynamics did.

[Aero426]

...

Our dilemma is we have the original owner/driver saying it is real, documents support that, and comments from a general public who say they have questions.  Sans any other evidence, who would you believe?  Give us something more to work with and we would be happy to take this another step.

Tom Christmann
815.568.8888 

That's pretty simple.   Cars that Mario Rossi would have fielded in 1970 would have been built by Nichels Engineering, just like the other factory supported Chrysler teams.    All these cars have typical construction characteristics that can be visually identified.    I don't see those construction cues in the photos presented.

[daytonalo]

The real sad thing here is some  uninformed Jack-ass will pay big money thinking its the real deal but in reality nothing more than a hunk of shit with pretty paint

[68X426]

The car isn't remotely like Bobby's #22 from 1969 and 1970. Easy to see when reviewing his official photos at his official website.

http://www.bobbyallison.com/photos/bobby/70s/ba-70s.htm   

It is very reasonable that a test car would have differences and experimentation, but .....

Why would Rossi build a test car with full battle colors and sponsor decals?
Why would Rossi make at least 5 significant aerodynamic changes AND test the new engine?
Why change the air dam, nosecone, scoops, wing, and plug ALL SIMULTANEOUSLY?
Why do those 5 aero changes look, to use the highly technical term, half-ass?
Didn't the real aero parts work really fine in 69?

Answer: this is a poor tribute car at best, and a fake at worst. Buyer beware.
(I bet the Mecham guy is thinking "those a-holes think they are CSI")

[daytonalo]

Most like me are asking why is this a " No brainer " ???We all know this is a Pimp my ride Ghetto cruiser

[Aero426]

The noted vintage racer Mr. Sprague had Kruse auctions liquidate his collection in December.    The Daytona is the only car listed with no sale price.    It would appear that whatever deal there was (if any) may have unwound and this is round #2 to dump it.     He had a white Superbird at the sale that sold for 66k.    First auction info below.

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2992&aid=24615&lid=6640390#topoflot

[daytonalo]

I thought Mecum was a Professional, honorable and upstanding organization , I was wrong after the so called Daytona which in my eyes is flat out fraud !!! They lost any respect I may have had at one time for being one of the best auction houses and should be ashamed of themselves for standing behind this " MUNSTER DAYTONA " 

[Ghoste]

You don't understand the classic car auction business too well do you?

[wingcar builder]

this car was posted couple years ago on this forum. it was at a car show and it was covered then as a home built hillbilly ride. but it wasn't a so-called mario Rossi car then.

[Ghoste]

I think I recall that thread.  Larry ragged on the car mercilessly and we defended the guys right to do whatever he wanted.  Turns out what someone wanted was to fabricate a tale and make a lot of money off of it.  Who would have thought that old Daytonalo would get the last laugh?

[moparstuart]

I think I recall that thread.  Larry ragged on the car mercilessly and we defended the guys right to do whatever he wanted.  Turns out what someone wanted was to fabricate a tale and make a lot of money off of it.  Who would have thought that old Daytonalo would get the last laugh?

if they only would have used a real wing , nose , scoupes and plug , the car might look more legit

[daytonalo]

Ok , it must be the water most drink around here!!! No plug and said Bobby Allison drove it back in the day , if ANY you believe that you never got out the third grade !!! Oops sorry to offend some of you , maybe fifth grade for some   . Just to clear something up what Ghoste said , yes do what you want but to pass it off to somebody who clearly doesn't have a clue is wrong and you know it

[BROCK]

The MUNSTER Daytona jab is an insult to the MUNSTERS.  Funny - but.....

The comparison is all about details.  The Daytona in question hasn't a single
detail in it's parts shape remotely close to accurate.  Perhaps Zombie Daytona
would suffice?



Afterall the MUNSTERS understood deTails - that coffin car could out cD this
Daytona

[daytonalo]

Thank you very sell said yet there are few on here that see nothing wrong with it!! Cataracts???

[tan top]

Thank you very sell said yet there are few on here that see nothing wrong with it!! Cataracts???

 

reminds me of a dart that had a home made nose & wing  , that was painted up as  Petty Superbird , that was featured in a mopar mag , !! was used for ice racing

[elacruze]

I'm no expert, but how 'bout that recessed backlight?

[daytonalo]

That is part of car is called "PLUG " it was mention earlier. I knew that car looked familiar and as mentioned it looks like that Dart 

[petercharger]

the car reminds me of a couple of guys here in Oregon that did a few superbird clones out of 70 satellites and kept the fenders..the nose and wings are their trade marks..this car looks like one of theirs using a charger body...

[nascarxx29]

Same Bobby Allison daytona?

[Aero426]

Same Bobby Allison daytona?

Top three photos are the same car.   Bottom one in the magazine is not.

[68X426]

The car in the first three photos is very likely the one currently being discussed (zombie/munster/fake/fraud/auction).

The car in the magazine is neither the one in the 3 photos nor the one up for auction. One, the magazine car has the vent window and small post. I will say that this is correct (and the real Rossi 426 race car) because it matches all the photos at the official Allison site, the official NASCAR site, and the private Legends of NASCAR site. See the attached photos from those sites. The vent window and post is on the race car. It is in the magazine photo. It is not on the auction car. Two, the magazine car has the 426, not the 305 being claimed in the auction car.

Story and link on Mario Rossi: http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Mario_Rossi.htm

The auction seller could claim that the auction car is real only because it was a test car with the 305, not the race car with the 426 (all these official photos) or the race car with the 305 (some photos). There are no photos of the test car with 305 that I can find. The Legends site has the race car 305 in photos.

The race car 305 is seen in several photos but they are too poor to identify the plug/no plug and other significant changes. The exception is the air dam which is different from the Rossi site car and the auction car.

I attached the Rossi photo of the 305 engine. I would say that the engine is the historic item here that matters, not the body and aero parts around it. As we see the body and aero parts can be faked and were faked. The auction car seller needs to show the motor, and document it, until then buyer beware. It is a tribute car at best, and a fraud at worst.

[68X426]

I should add that Rossi has been dead since 1983. There are no photos of his test cars with 305s.

There are a few pics of the 305 motor. Who knows if there is any one who can I.D. the famous 305 now. It was Rossi's car, and there is no Rossi. The story and info at the Legends site were posted in 2003. There are nearly one million reasons to fake a car.

**edit on 1-18-10** I should missing since 1983 and presumed dead. Sad story all around.

[Aero426]

The car in the first three photos is very likely the one currently being discussed (zombie/munster/fake/fraud/auction).
Correct

The car in the magazine is neither the one in the 3 photos nor the one up for auction. One, the magazine car has the vent window and small post. I will say that this is correct (and the real Rossi 426 race car) because it matches all the photos at the official Allison site, the official NASCAR site, and the private Legends of NASCAR site. See the attached photos from those sites. The vent window and post is on the race car. It is in the magazine photo. It is not on the auction car. Two, the magazine car has the 426, not the 305 being claimed in the auction car.
It is not possible to prove or disprove the car from the magazine is a real Rossi car, or even which one it is.   That car has been rebodied from a later body BACK to a 69 Charger.    My understanding is that the decision that it was a Rossi car was arrived at by scraping paint off roll bars, etc.  Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't.   However, even if it is not a Rossi car, it is a real Nichels built car, and a beautiful restoration.   Also, all side glass had to be removed in the middle of the 1970 season.   My Superbird race car had pop out rear side glass,  roll down rear side glass and then no side glass, all in the same season.  So you can't read too much into it.

Story and link on Mario Rossi: http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Mario_Rossi.htm

The auction seller could claim that the auction car is real only because it was a test car with the 305, not the race car with the 426 (all these official photos) or the race car with the 305 (some photos). There are no photos of the test car with 305 that I can find. The Legends site has the race car 305 in photos.
That's because there was no "test car 305".   The program was a last minute deal for Daytona 1971 and it all came together at the race track with Dick Brooks doing the driving.  There was no test program.  It was a "let's stick it in and see if this works" deal.  

The race car 305 is seen in several photos but they are too poor to identify the plug/no plug and other significant changes. The exception is the air dam which is different from the Rossi site car and the auction car.
By rule the 305 race car could not run without a plug.  Spoilers could change from race to race.

I attached the Rossi photo of the 305 engine. I would say that the engine is the historic item here that matters, not the body and aero parts around it. As we see the body and aero parts can be faked and were faked. The auction car seller needs to show the motor, and document it, until then buyer beware. It is a tribute car at best, and a fraud at worst.
The engine in the 305 Daytona was a very unique Keith Black built unit. While the engine is important, if the structure of the car underneath is anything other than a Nichels car, it is game over.  I don't believe the auctioneers have made any representation as to who built the chassis.  But the idea of Rossi testing some custom built (Non-Nichels built) car with the 305 is crazy talk

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