How much power do you think my 440 makes?

[miller]

My friends have access to a dyno and want me to put my car on it to see what it is, I would love to see how much power the car is making but I would hate to embarrass it (and myself) by showing much lower numbers than what was originally thought. I'm just looking at a ballpark of what you think my motor makes.

The motor has:

Block:         Bored 30 over
Pistons:      Speed Pro ZH143CP30
Crank:        Forged, Balanced
Cam:          COMP Cams 21-222-4
Heads:       906, port matched, 3 angle valve job, hardened valve seals
Exhaust:     Headman headers, X-pipe, Dyno Max Ultra Flow, 2.5 in exhaust
Intake:       stock (non hp), with 650 Holley Carb


How much horsepower do you think this motor makes, and how much would be made using an edelbrock rpm intake and 750 carb?
Or if you have any other suggestions for intakes/carbs

[RECHRGD]

The motor has:

Block:         Bored 30 over
Pistons:      Speed Pro ZH143CP30
Crank:        Forged, Balanced
Cam:          COMP Cams 21-222-4
Heads:       906, port matched, 3 angle valve job, hardened valve seals
Exhaust:     Headman headers, X-pipe, Dyno Max Ultra Flow, 2.5 in exhaust
Intake:       stock (non hp), with 650 Holley Carb


How much horsepower do you think this motor makes, and how much would be made using an edelbrock rpm intake and 750 carb?
Or if you have any other suggestions for intakes/carbs

What CR?  Do you have the complete cam specs?  What size are the headers?  I assume your looking for a gross hp figure.  Whatever level of hp your at, I would think that upgrading your intake and carb would definitely be the next step to build more HP.  Bob

[Cooter]

Based on the limited Info you provided here, I'd say somewhere in the 400-450 HP range At the crank...

[miller]

A. what exactly do you mean by cr?
B. Taken directly off website

Brand  COMP Cams
Manufacturer's Part Number                                       21-222-4
Part Type                                                                  Camshafts
Product Line                                                              COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Camshafts
Summit Racing Part Number                                       CCA-21-222-4
   
Cam Style                                                                 Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range                                        1,300-5,600
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift                                  218
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift                                224
Duration at 050 inch Lift                                             218 int./224 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration                                         262
Advertised Exhaust Duration                                       270
Advertised Duration                                                    262 int./270 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio            0.462 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio         0.470 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio                     0.462 int./0.470 exh. lift
Lobe Separation (degrees)                                          110
Camshaft Gear Attachment                                         1-bolt
Intake Valve Lash                                                      0.000 in.
Exhaust Valve Lash                                                    0.000 in.
Computer-Controlled Compatible                                  No
Grind Number                                                            CRB XE262H-10
Quantity                                                                   Sold individually.
Notes                                                                         Single-bolt camshaft.

[miller]

Based on the limited Info you provided here, I'd say somewhere in the 400-450 HP range...

What other information would you like me to give you?

[Cooter]

Compression ratio would be nice..CC of the heads did you mill the heads/Block?
Jsut because those pistons SAID they were 10.5:1 or 10.7:1 does NOT mean that once they are installed in YOUR combination, they will be...

[miller]

Compression ratio would be nice..CC of the heads did you mill the heads/Block?
Jsut because those pistons SAID they were 10.5:1 or 10.7:1 does NOT mean that once they are installed in YOUR combination, they will be...

Ok I get your line of thinking, and I can not answer that until the engine builder is back (which would be next monday) I will get that information for you monday.

Thanks,
Miller

EDIT
Also I have all the information about the Headers:

Summit Racing Part Number  HED-78038
   
Header Style  Full-length
Header Material  Steel
Header Finish  Thermal coated
Primary Tube Diameter (in)  1 3/4 in.
Collector Attachment  Ball and socket flange
Collector Diameter  3.000 in.
Tuned  No
Primary Tube Gauge  14-gauge
Cylinder Head Port Shape  Rectangular
Flange Style  Standard
Flange Thickness (in)  3/8 in.

[oldschool]

My friends have access to a dyno and want me to put my car on it to see what it is, I would love to see how much power the car is making but I would hate to embarrass it (and myself) by showing much lower numbers than what was originally thought. I'm just looking at a ballpark of what you think my motor makes.

The motor has:

Block:         Bored 30 over
Pistons:      Speed Pro ZH143CP30
Crank:        Forged, Balanced
Cam:          COMP Cams 21-222-4
Heads:       906, port matched, 3 angle valve job, hardened valve seals
Exhaust:     Headman headers, X-pipe, Dyno Max Ultra Flow, 2.5 in exhaust
Intake:       stock (non hp), with 650 Holley Carb


How much horsepower do you think this motor makes, and how much would be made using an edelbrock rpm intake and 750 carb?
Or if you have any other suggestions for intakes/carbs

i'm guessing you are going to chassis dyno it? i think your combo would make 310-320 rwhp.

[68X426]

So is this like the office pool? I'll go with 321 at the rear wheels.

When will we know what we win?

[carolina charger]

 Seeing he has 30 over and a heavy cam, I'm going with 333.

[b5blue]

383 

[elacruze]

I've dealt too many losing hands on the heartbreaker-I'll take 260 before the first 'tune' and 290 before the first parts swap.

[greenpigs]

302 after it is tweaked if chassis dyno.

[skip68]

I say around 260 to the ground.   

[RECHRGD]

I say around 260 to the ground.   

[firefighter3931]

I say around 260 to the ground.   

Me three...260 is in the ballpark 


Ron

[miller]

Is that a factor of me not having the right intake and carb, or did I just not build it right?

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

I say around 260 to the ground.   

Me three...260 is in the ballpark 


Ron

Me four....my build is similar and all I got was 270 to the wheels (no tuning though to get more)

did run a best time of 13.55 @ 103 a few years ago with that #

[SeattleCharger]

if the old days stock 440 was 325 and the hp engine was 375 horsepower, what was that at the rear wheels?   for comparison, thanks

[elacruze]

Is that a factor of me not having the right intake and carb, or did I just not build it right?

Hey, don't take it hard. We don't even know the real number yet, do we? Or do we?

Any engine can lose an amazing amount of power from being only a little out of tune, and having a single component which does not compliment the rest.
you have the stock manifold/small carb/not optimized. That's a dealbreaker for peak numbers.
What number did you bet your buddies on? One of the beautiful (and horrible) things about reality is that it does not depend upon our imaginations for existence.
Don't beat yourself up on the build, find out what it makes and what you can tune it to, then you have a great baseline to move forward from. One piece at a time.

My first build should have made 400hp at the wheels. It made...NONE! I wiped the cam out in about 20 miles. THAT was a case of not 'building it right'. 

[SeattleCharger]

  usually people are talking about the horsepower of the engine on a dyno, not at the rear wheels.
     these lower number guesses are the rear wheel power, not what you were prob. telling your friends.
  a stock old days 440 made 325 horsepower from the factory, and the hp 440 made 375.
    if you have a mildly built 440 you can be at 400 horsepower no problem, but the power at the rear wheels will be lower than that

[b5blue]

Yup! Now I must adjust my guess...say 20%? That would put me at 306.4 peak. 

[RECHRGD]

The hp ratings from the factory were based upon GROSS hp on an engine dyno.  That means the hp at the flywheel on a engine dyno with no accessories on the engine and open exhaust.  Also probably at optimum air density.  After 1971 factory hp ratings were based upon NET hp at the flywheel and remains so today.  Net hp readings are taken with all accessories on the motor such as power steering pump, alternator, cooling fan, water pump and factory exhaust run through the mufflers.  According to an article I found on the net awhile back, gross hp would equate to rwhpX1.53 and net would equate to rwhpX1.26.  If those numbers are in the ballpark, that would put your 375hp 440 at 298hp by today's standards.  RWHP would come in at 245hp.  As I recall, my stock 440 (except for headers) made about 250hp rwhp back in the day (1968), so these figures, although humbling, are most likely pretty close.  Bob

[b5blue]

So the rumors about them understating these numbers to circumvent higher insurance penalty's are false? 

[RECHRGD]

So the rumors about them understating these numbers to circumvent higher insurance penalty's are false? 

I don't know about that.  But the change from gross to net hp ratings was a 1971 thing.  That's about the same time that everybody says  the factories started under rating hp figures.  Bob

[Ghoste]

As far as lowering numbers for insurance companies I tend to think that it wasn't  common but probably did take place a little later on.  Hp numbers in the 60's were much more likely to be adjusted to points that suited a certain class of racing.  The Hemi and the 340 are a couple of good examples of lowered ratings.  The 428 Cobra Jet Fords were under-rated too as well as some of the GM engines that were clearly intended to participate in the sanctioned motorsport events that GM did "not" participate in  .  In cases where it made good marketing the figures were sometimes adjusted up too.  I'd point a finger at some of the smallblock Chev numbers here.
After the switch to SAE net hp numbers in the early 70's, it became easier to show lower figures to insurance companies.  There were probably also some cases where a number was deliberately made lower to appease the insurance lobby but it would have been during this net hp, oil crisis time.

[RECHRGD]

As far as lowering numbers for insurance companies I tend to think that it wasn't  common but probably did take place a little later on.  Hp numbers in the 60's were much more likely to be adjusted to points that suited a certain class of racing.  The Hemi and the 340 are a couple of good examples of lowered ratings.  The 428 Cobra Jet Fords were under-rated too as well as some of the GM engines that were clearly intended to participate in the sanctioned motorsport events that GM did "not" participate in  .  In cases where it made good marketing the figures were sometimes adjusted up too.  I'd point a finger at some of the smallblock Chev numbers here.
After the switch to SAE net hp numbers in the early 70's, it became easier to show lower figures to insurance companies.  There were probably also some cases where a number was deliberately made lower to appease the insurance lobby but it would have been during this net hp, oil crisis time.

Yep, the hemi was definitely under rated.  There was a local guy that brought his stock 426 hemi to the chassis dyno here and he had a best pull of 310 rwhp.  He was pissed that his 425 hp factory rated engine would not do better.  But, if you use the X 1.53 calculation the gross hp would be at about 475hp.  Bob

[Steve P.]

240 RWHP through an automatic...

[RECHRGD]

Miller, did you ever get to run it on the dyno?  Just curious on who won the prize for the closest guess.   Bob

[miller]

Miller, did you ever get to run it on the dyno?  Just curious on who won the prize for the closest guess.   Bob

No that's usually something they have in the fall (everyone gets together and uses it for the day), its a little to crappy outside to do that kind of stuff... and with it only making that much power, I think its wisest to keep them believing in the legend of the muscle car and think it has 400 horse.


Its the same reason I never race it, better to have them think its fast than realize it isn't.

[Cooter]

I'd Much rather be outrun in a Wedge By a Hemi, than in a HEMI by a Wedge....Time to purchase some parts for your 440 and then they won't have to "wonder" if it's powerful....

[miller]

Cooter, If you have the cash then I have the wishlist,


Kettering is racking up the bills to the tune of 28,000 a year so until I have a diploma in my hand the charger will have to wait.

[oldschool]

yeah, it always comes down to " how fast can you afford to go? "