Is Valvoline 10W-30 Vr1 oil a good choice, if not what is?

[miller]

The engine builder who looked over the build of my 440 recommends Vr1 10W-30 oil for it, is this a good oil or is he just trying to snag some extra cash by having us buy that oil from him?

[Charger-Bodie]

The VR1 Oil is high in Zinc. etc. , So yes it would be a good choice. Not sure on the wieght though most want to see ya run 20/50.

[RECHRGD]

The VR1 Oil is high in Zinc. etc. , So yes it would be a good choice. Not sure on the wieght though most want to see ya run 20/50.

 
I run the VR1 20/50 and also throw in some cam break-in additive with every oil change.  Oil is not the place to be pinching pennies on these engines.   Bob

[c00nhunterjoe]

i am having search issues again, but from what i recall reading the vr-1 is high in zinc but still lower then what it is supposed to be, so it is a good oil as long as you run an additive with it

[68X426]

The engine builder who looked over the build of my 440 recommends Vr1 10W-30 oil for it, is this a good oil or is he just trying to snag some extra cash by having us buy that oil from him?

Directly from Valvoline's website:  Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" oil? Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13% of Zinc and .12% of Phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14% of Zinc and .13% of Phosphorus.

Those percentages equate to 1300 and 1400 PPM (parts per million). It seems that every builder, racer, cam designer and guru advises to use a minimum 1200 ppm. Most say that above 1700 is pointless, and above that level the zinc creates its own heat problems.

Your engine builder is doing you right with the advice. 

VR1 is readily available at $4.50 a quart. If he's asking a lot more than that then the issue is price, but not the advice.

The oil weight depends on your driving habits, climate, and the engine particulars. I use 10-30 because it works in my situation, you may find that 40 or 50 is better for you.

[miller]

The engine builder who looked over the build of my 440 recommends Vr1 10W-30 oil for it, is this a good oil or is he just trying to snag some extra cash by having us buy that oil from him?

Directly from Valvoline's website:  Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" oil? Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13% of Zinc and .12% of Phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14% of Zinc and .13% of Phosphorus.

Those percentages equate to 1300 and 1400 PPM (parts per million). It seems that every builder, racer, cam designer and guru advises to use a minimum 1200 ppm. Most say that above 1700 is pointless, and above that level the zinc creates its own heat problems.

Your engine builder is doing you right with the advice. 

VR1 is readily available at $4.50 a quart. If he's asking a lot more than that then the issue is price, but not the advice.

The oil weight depends on your driving habits, climate, and the engine particulars. I use 10-30 because it works in my situation, you may find that 40 or 50 is better for you.

I run in the summers, ranging from usually between 50-100 degrees outside (although sometimes I will take it out when it is as low as 30), elevation ranges from 500-600 feet, and it is usually ran around town, some trips ande very little drag racing.

[TylerCharger69]

Conventional Castrol GTX 20 W 50 with a quart of Lucas here.....

[Charger-Bodie]

The engine builder who looked over the build of my 440 recommends Vr1 10W-30 oil for it, is this a good oil or is he just trying to snag some extra cash by having us buy that oil from him?

Directly from Valvoline's website:  Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" oil? Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13% of Zinc and .12% of Phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14% of Zinc and .13% of Phosphorus.

Those percentages equate to 1300 and 1400 PPM (parts per million). It seems that every builder, racer, cam designer and guru advises to use a minimum 1200 ppm. Most say that above 1700 is pointless, and above that level the zinc creates its own heat problems.

Your engine builder is doing you right with the advice. 

VR1 is readily available at $4.50 a quart. If he's asking a lot more than that then the issue is price, but not the advice.

The oil weight depends on your driving habits, climate, and the engine particulars. I use 10-30 because it works in my situation, you may find that 40 or 50 is better for you.

I run in the summers, ranging from usually between 50-100 degrees outside (although sometimes I will take it out when it is as low as 30), elevation ranges from 500-600 feet, and it is usually ran around town, some trips Andee very little drag racing.

I usually Change oil in my carChargers twice a tear 20/50 (vr1 or Brad penn) in the spring and then 10/31 Of the Same type in the fall for winter start-ups.

OH yeah and I always throw in a bottle of the Comp Cams breakin lube every time.

[WH23G3G]

I was debating on buying the Valvoline 10W-30 VR1 for my recently rebuilt 400 in my 73. To start up I just have conventional 10W-30 ALL CLIMATE Valvoline plus a break-in additive. I'm trying to get the break-in additive from Redline but can't find a distributor here. Also here it's kinda hard to find the VR1 10W-30. So far I've only seen it at Napa at $4.79. The discount parts stores carry 50W and 20W-50 VR1. Everyone here uses 10W-30, and mine is all stock rebuilt so I don't think I need anything thicker. Does the oil pump have anything to do with oil weight choices? I'm running a Melling High Pressure pump.

[GN]

RECHRGD, what additive are you using?

[WH23G3G]

I just saw that Northern Tool carries at least in my area Mag 1 oil in all different weights for $2.99 which states on the bottle that it contains crucial ZDP for wear protection. I'll probably use this plus the Redline Break-In additive.

[Nitrox]

What is the action that the zinc takes to provide this benifit?

Also, Ive always used Pennzoil 10/30. When I tried Valvoline 10/30, the engine burned a quart per week. I will NEVER use Valvoline again.

[68X426]

There is a ton of data, and real world experience (street and racing), on this topic posted at this forum as well as all over the internet. This is directly from Valvoline's website:

What is zinc?

The anti-wear additive simply referred to as "zinc" by most car enthusiasts is actually short for Zinc DialkylDithiophosphates or ZDDP. Its primary role is to prevent metal-to-metal contact between engine parts by forming a protective film. Despite being referred to as "zinc," this additive actually contains zinc and phosphorus, with phosphorus performing the anti-wear function.

Why have the zinc/phosphorus levels in motor oil changed?

With ever increasing limits on emissions, automobile manufacturers have tightened emission control systems on newer vehicles. This is one of several factors considered when the American Petroleum Institute (API) sets standards for motor oil. The current API standard is "SM" which replaced the previous "SL" classification. Because phosphorus can poison a vehicle's emission system, the level of zinc is lower for current motor oil.

[Nitrox]

Valvoline cant just say Zinc provides a friction barrier. That doesnt make any sense. The oil is already doing that. So its happening regardless. The question is, what benifit does the zinc itself add other than the obvious addition of a friction barrier. What is the chemical action its taking?

[68X426]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V57-4BV4W1T-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1151164206&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e7f1ef0566ff4352960efc004f3b4564

Tribochemistry of ZDDP in molecular orbital calculations by Yuanqiang Tan, Weijiu Huangb and Xueye Wangc

College of Mechanical Engineering, Xiangtan University, Hunan 411105, China

Department of Material Science, Chongqing Institute of Technology, Chongqing, China

College of Chemistry, Xiangtan University, Hunan 411105, China

Abstract: The molecular orbital parameters of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) and several metal-atom-cluster models were calculated. The nature and the strength of the interactions between the ZDDP molecules and different metal surfaces are analysed and discussed with the use of frontier orbital theory. By comparing the highest occupied molecular orbital energy (EHOMO) and the lowest unoccupied molecular orbital energy (ELUMO) of the ZDDP and the atoms cluster models of Al6, Cu6, and Fe5, it is concluded that ZDDP behaves as an excellent boundary lubricant additive at the interface with iron. The derived molecular orbital parameters illustrate the advantages for tribochemistry studies.

Also spend time with the following:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/tril/2005/00000019/00000003/00006148http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate

Abstract: The growth and morphology of tribofilms, generated from zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) and an ashless dialkyldithiophosphate (DDP) over a wide range of rubbing times (10 s to 10 h) and concentrations (0.1–5 wt% ZDDP), have been examined using atomic force microscopy (AFM), X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS) and X-ray absorption near edge structure (XANES) spectroscopy at the O, P and S K-edges and the P, S, and Fe L-edges. The physical aspects of the growth and morphology of the tribofilms will be presented in Part I and the chemistry of the films will be discussed in Part II. The major components of all films on 52100 steel are Zn and Fe phosphates and polyphosphates. The average thickness of these phosphate films has been measured using P K-edge XANES and XPS profiling. For ZDDP, a very significant phosphate film (about 100 Å thick) forms after 10 s, while film development for DDP is substantially slower. However, for both additives, the average film thickness increases to 600–800 Å after 30 min of rubbing, before leveling off or decreasing. The antiwear properties of pure ZDDP and in combination with DDP at different rubbing times and concentrations have also been examined. It was found that under all conditions, the performance of ZDDP as an antiwear agent is superior to that of DDP. However, DDP has no adverse effect on the performance of ZDDP when the two are mixed. The AFM results show that ZDDP forms larger and better developed "pads" than DDP at short rubbing times. At longer rubbing times, both films become more uniform. For the 1 h ZDDP films, the film thickness is surprisingly independent of the ZDDP concentration from 0.1 to 5 wt% ZDDP. The film thickness is also independent of the ratio of ZDDP/DDP concentrations.

Then, check out these:

http://www.astm.org/JOURNALS/JAI/PAGES/JAI100937.htm

http://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/ZDDP.htm

http://www.zddplus.com

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/ZDDP_Collection.aspx

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

[Ghoste]

In other words it clings more easily to the metal surfaces in a high pressure situation (like flat tapper cams and lifters) and thereby allows the oil to remain between those high pressure surfaces and do it's job.

[dstryr]

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/oil_camwear2.html



Here is a detailed article on ZDP(ZDDP).  The reading gets good under the section header "Why ZDP gets so much attention".  It explains how and why the zinc compound works and why motor oil 'wears out'.   What I gather is that zinc is a binder in the equation while the sulfur and phosphorus primarily do the protecting.

[Paul G]

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/oil_camwear2.html



Here is a detailed article on ZDP(ZDDP).  The reading gets good under the section header "Why ZDP get so much attention".  It explains how and why the zinc compound works and why motor oil 'wears out'.   What I gather is that zinc is a binder in the equation while the sulfur and phosphorus primarily do the protecting.

That is one heck of an article! I take from it that additives are not (ZDDP) necessary if you choose the correct oil in the first place. It is not possible to copy and paste from that article, so, he suggest using "Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil" which has 1200 PPM Phos if you like conventional oils. It has enough detergent for street driven engines. He chooses Valvoline VR-1 because it is readily available, and the specs are published. Or, "Mobil 1 High Milage" 10W30, it has a 1000 PPM nominal phos, just barely enough. He also says Joe Gibbs Racing has developed there own oils which are very good choices. Contact JGR.

All of this is determined by the cam, lifters and spring pressure you are using. More radical "racing" cams are most effected by the lack of Phos. Stock profile cams not so much.

I just changed the oil in my Charger yesterday. It has a pretty well built 360, I put in Valvoline VR-1 20W50 because it stated on the bottle it has ZDDP for better lubrication of racing engines. I got lucky, picked a good oil.

[RD]

here ya go paul:

     The second antiwear strategy is technology. Over time, better camshaft and lifter materials have been developed. This is not to say that every camshaft and lifter manufacturer uses those better materials, but they do exist and have been implemented by OE's and some aftermarket companies. Additionally, surface treatments, more robust  and more permanent than phosphating, which dates to the mid-'50s, have been developed by the aftermarket, such as nitriding. Lastly, more stringent quality controls have, also, improved durability.
     
   
     The third strategy is better lubrication. For over half a century, "extreme pressure" or "EP" lubricants have been added to engine oil to extend camshaft/lifter durability. They enhance the oil's ability to lubricate parts which rub against a small area of each other and are under high load while they rub. In the early-'50s, following introduction of higher valve spring pressures, there were problems with valvetrain wear. In response, car companies introduced camshafts with a sacrificial phosphate coating (which enhanced break-in reliability) andlifters made of hardenable alloys of cast iron. They also pressured the oil industry to reformulate engine oils to improve cam and lifter durability. Its response was a significant increase of EP additives in oil blends.
     
     Mechanical properties, materials and lubrication can, also, increase wear. If a lobe is not properly tapered or a lifter face is not manufactured with the proper convex profile or surface finish, rapid wear will occur. If the materials are substandard (poor quality iron) or the surface is not treated properly (poor quality phosphating of the cam) the cam and lifters will fail. If the engine oil lacks a proper EP additive package (and this can be either too little or, sometimes, too much), the valvetrain may suffer poor durability.

     Why ZDP Gets so Much Attention

     The most common EP additive in automotive engine oils is zinc dialkyldithio-phosphate (ZDDP), a family of coordination compounds of zinc and dithiophosphoric acid which, in longer chain, molecular derivatives, easily dissolve in engine oils. Known more commonly as "zinc dithiophosphate" (ZDP), "zinc phosphate" or, quite incorrectly, just "zinc", this compound was initially added to oil in the 1940s as an anti-corrosive/antioxidant. Later it was discovered to be an excellent extreme pressure lubricant.
     
       
A molecule of ZDP is made up of an alkyl group, phosphate, sulfur and zinc.
                 
     When subjected to heat present at the lobe/lifter interface, ZDP decomposes into alcohol, zinc, sulfur and phosphorous. The alcohol evaporates and the zinc mostly washes away, leaving sulfur and phosphorous to combine with iron molecules on the surface of the cam lobe to make iron sulfide and iron phosphate, the two compounds which perform EP lubrication.
     
     "The 'dithio' in 'zinc dithiophosphate' means for every phosphorous there are two sulfur molecules," Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation's Vice President and top petro-chemical engineer, Roy Howell, told the Corvette Action Center.
     "Sulfur is probably more important than zinc and phosphorous.
     "The (cam and lifter) wear surfaces are rich in iron and sulfur with a lesser amount of  phosphorous. The ZDP decomposes into a soft, thin film of iron sulfide and iron phosphate which prevents iron adhesion, or welding. The zinc doesn't do much. If you look at photomicrographs of cams and lifters, there's hardly any zinc coating, but there's a lot of iron sulfide coating and some iron phosphate coating.

     "With this process, you trade adhesive wear for chemical wear. If you didn't have these soft films, which prevent iron from touching iron if you didn't have something in the middle, then you'd get adhesive wear-welding and that iron-to-iron weld would pull 'chunks' out of the lobe and follower.

     "What makes zinc dialkyldithiophosphate unique is its precise thermal decomposition temperature which can be manipulated by changing the composition of the organic (alkyl) group attached to the  phosphorous.

      "If it decomposes at too low a temperature, chemical wear would occur where it is not needed but, if it occurred at a higher temperature, then some adhesion or welding, would already be taking place.

     "There are a lot of different sulfur compounds," Howell continued, "but this one has 'precision-controlled' decomposition. In many of the others, the sulfur and the phosphorous are much more loosely bonded. There's a bigger 'range'. It might partially decompose at a lower temperature and finish at a higher temperature or, maybe, decompose only at a higher temperature, however, with ZDP-boom!-, like at 400°F, it starts to thermally decompose then react (with the surface of the lobe and lifter) to form those almost monomolecular soft films. As the lobe rubs against the follower, that film will get rubbed off and in the next revolution, the same thing happens again."

     ZDP is slowly depleted by decomposition and evaporation, so eventually EP lubrication becomes inadequate. This is one reason oils need to be changed periodically.

     While some petrochemical engineers consider sulfur of primary importance and some consumers misunderstand zinc content as benchmarking EP additives in oil; in reality, it is the phosphorous component about which the oil industry is most concerned.

     Oil blending data prior to the early-'90s is difficult to acquire, but our research revealed that mass-marketed engine oil typically used by consumers from the late-1950s to the mid-'70s had enough ZDP to result in around 800 parts per million phosphorous content or "phos" as some engineers say.

     In the early-'70s, "finger followers" were introduced in some single overhead camshaft (SOHC) engines. They presented a durability problem, initially, thought to be caused by insufficient EP lubrication. In response, from the late-'70s to the mid-1980s, phosphorus in most oils climbed to about 1000 PPM. Ironically, as experience with finger follower engines grew, it was eventually determined that, due to the location of the valvetrain in the engine, blowby driven corrosion was affecting the durability problem more than insufficient EP lubrication.

     In the late-80s/early-90s, the oil industry began to decrease phosphorous, back towards 800 PPM because: 1) extra ZDP for finger followers proved unnecessary and alternative methods improved materials, other additives were found to enhance durability, 2) OE's were converting to roller lifters which required less EP lubrication, 3) OEs wanted to improve the longevity of emissions controls and 4) historically, as far back as the mid-'50s, 800 PPM phosphorous provided good durability of flat tappet cams and lifters in production OHV engines.

[RD]

Backing Off the Catalyst Killer

      Inevitably, the Federal government began to "stir the pot." By the late-'80s, the Federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) decided that phosphorous released by small quantities of oil burned by the engine gradually deactivates or "poisons" the reactant which enables a catalytic converter (some call them "catalysts" or just "cats") to convert certain exhaust gas components to less toxic substances. Once that happens, the cat becomes ineffective.
      The EPA, deciding it was better for us to have expensive, long-life cats instead of more frequent replacements of "short-life" cats, offered car companies incentives for implementation of more durable catalysts. Politicians and EPA's mandarins figured the OE's would pressure the oil industry to scale back use of ZDP, thereby reducing phosphorous and preventing the premature demise of hundreds of millions of catalytic converters. This was a slow ramp-up, starting around the '80s at 50,000 miles. The current cat life requirement is 150,000 miles.
      Sure enough, car companies, which, by the mid-'90s expected to be using either roller lifters in OHV engines or less highly-loaded, direct-acting flat tappets in OHC engines, convinced "big oil" to reduce phosphorous to extend cat life. Their leverage was the purchase of millions of gallons of oil a year to factory fill their engines and their recommending types of oils in owner's manuals.
           
            Virtually all engine oil, including this quart of Valvoline, has information as to various specifications it meets on its labeling. Anytime you see the circular API marking, sometimes called the "Starburst," you know that product is licensed by API as meeting one of its Services.
           
            On the back of the container, you usually find more info. This happens to be a bottle of Pennzoil 10W30, which is a GF-4 and SM oil. Any GF-4 can also meet GF-3 and API SI and SL (the only other two certifications were are current) because they only specify a maximum phosphorous number and other certification tests for those early specs are less demanding.
                 
     
      In 1987, American car companies, along with Japanese manufacturers assembling cars in the U.S., formed the International Lubricant Standards and Approval Committee (ILSAC). One of ILSAC's goals was to enact standards which would gradually reduce phosphorous in engine oils carrying its and API's Service certifications.

      In 2002, to improve the standards process, ILSAC, the oil industry and the additive makers formed the ILSAC/Oil committee. "Basically, it's worked out within that committee, from the OEM, the oil and the additive sides, what new oil specs will be," current ILSAC/Oil Chairman, Robert Olree told us in an interview. "My job, as chairman, is to keep all those cats...you've heard of herding cats...keep those guys in line and make sure the process keeps moving forward."

      Herding cats, indeed! Imagine those meetings - all three groups with different goals, agendas and strategies. Heck, we can't understand why Mr. Olree wants the job at all.

      ILSAC GF-1 ("GF" meaning "gasoline fueled") became effective in 1992. API followed with an "SH" version of its "Service" grades which, up until recently, were more familiar to consumers. GF-1 was the first oil standard with a phosphorous ceiling:1200 parts-per-million (PPM). API Service SF and prior, didn't regulate phosphorous.

      This first "maxphos" number was irrelevant because, other than racing, diesel and other special purpose engine oils, which were not certified, anyway; most oil bought by Vette owners had way less than 1200 PPM phosphorous. Nevertheless, the seemingly pointless spec. was purposeful. "The first time we limited phosphorous, it was 0.12%," Olree told us. "The oil industry doesn't like restrictions, so we put it in at .12 just to get the idea in place. It wasn't affecting anybody because no one was above that. Later, we started ratcheting the phos down."

      While GF-1 allowed up to 1200 PPM phosphorous, few of the GF-1 5W30s or 10W30s Corvetters used back then had more than 1000 PPM. So-called "racing oils" held phos to 1100-1300 PPM. Most oils purchased by consumers for engines in street cars ranged 800-1000 with a majority around 800, a figure which nearly half a century of research and experience proved was adequate to lubricate the vast majority of stock engines with flat tappet or finger follower valve trains and even some with mild, aftermarket, high-performance cams. Oils with viscosity higher than 10W30 were exempt from the phos limit.

      In 1996, GF-2 was issued, and, in 2002, ILSAC/Oil released GF-3. API Service SJ is comparable to GF-2 and SL corresponds to GF-3. All of these mandated 1000 PPM max phos but, by then, most engine oils with viscosities 10W30 or less were about 800 with perhaps a few, during the GF-3 period, getting down between 600 and 800 PPM. Viscosities higher than 10W30 continued exempt from the phosphorous limit.

      Where decreasing ZDP content first caused trouble was with engines having aftermarket, flat tappet camshafts with aggressive profiles, racing valve springs or high ratio rockers - parts which raise load at the lifter/lobe interface to over 200,000 psi. Such valvetrains required break-in procedures incorporating special additives, such as Comp Cams' "Cam Break-In" or Red Line's "Engine Oil Break-In Additive," both of which have additional ZDP, along with other components, such as molybdenum disulfide. Once break-in was complete, these engines needed an oil with 1000-1200 PPM phosphorous. Not all users of these cams were aware of this need and some who were aware, disregarded it.

      With GF-1 through GF-3 and SJ to SL, phosphorous regulation was a maximum limit, not a minimum requirement. As long as oil companies didn't exceed that, they could put any percentage of ZDP in the oil necessary for it to pass the battery of tests required for certification.

      GF-4 came in 2005 and was matched by API Service SM. GF-4 required oils with viscosities of 10W30 or lower to hold phos. above 600 PPM but below 800 PPM. This was the first specification which drove any significant change in oil blends, because previously, most had been at 800-1000 PPM, at or below any prior phosphorous ceiling but now, phos was held in a range. Viscosities higher than 10W30 continued to exempt from phos. limits.
      GF-5, due for introduction for the 2011 model year is not yet finalized, but IL-SAC/Oil Chairman Olree, told the Corvette Action Center that he believes GF-5 will have the same phosphorous specification as GF-4.