Broken 383 to rebuilt 440 weaker?

[METROID]

I had a 383 (1967/1968) Out of either a Dodge station wagon or power wagon, it came in the car when I bought it. The motor backfired, pinged and knocked and only held full compression in 3 of the 8 cylinders. Even with the motor shot the car would take off and tear up the road.

I eventually came across a rebuilt 440 (1974) and I rebuilt the 727 trans and got a new torque converter as well. I haven't fully broken in the motor but ever since the swap the car lags, chokes, and seems to have less power and acceleration than my Fuel efficient economical Honda Civic or the old 383 when it was broken  .

My mechanic Suggested I put in a Purple cam and pre 67 flat heads so my Charger isn't a joke. I realize I have vague info on my car but I was wondering if you guys had any suggestion to fix or make the car better. I was wondering while I have the motor pulled should I put in new heads, cam, and Torque converter  ? I'm not looking to race but I want the car to move better and not be an embarrassment to the Charger name.

(Budget at the moment is under 1k not including labor and I can pull heads from the old 383 if thats the way to go)

[Ghoste]

First thought that comes to my mind is to suggest you not listen to that mechanic (at least in the details).  The next one would be to ask if the car has had a proper performance tuneup done on it?

[METROID]

Well, I replaced all spark plugs (proper gapping), wires, new electronic distributor + ECU and Cap, new choke, Fuel pump, filters, fluids, properly adjusted carb, timed engine, and changed out belts (no more play). I also checked compression on all 8 cylinders and all are holding.

What is included in a proper performance tune up ? I think I have done just about everything I can do from home to tune it up at least with all the equipment I have access too.

[Ghoste]

What is the basic combo now as far as cam, intake, carb, manifolds and so on?

[Cooter]

If that rebuilt '74 440 wasn't Upgraded to higher compression pistons when rebuilt, it WILL be weaker than a '67-'68 383...A 1974 440 should be a cast crank pig with something like 7.5:1 compression...The '73-'78 went from 300 HP all the way down to around 180HP in 1978 for the mighty 440....

You will need MORE than a "Purple cam" and a set of closed chamber heads to bring back your '74 440. Sure, they might "Help", but it would be a band aid at best....

[greenpigs]

What is the timing at now? Is the 440 stock as far the cam goes?

[METROID]

What is the basic combo now as far as cam, intake, carb, manifolds and so on?

Most of it is a guess: cam RV or whatever they did for 74 Trucks, Intake was generic looking came with the motor has an EGR setup but I put a block off plate on it, Headers are very rust colored and have no markings I can see and carb I think was a 890 CFM Holly Street Avenger (Not positive on the SA Series but think thats what it is).

If that rebuilt '74 440 wasn't Upgraded to higher compression pistons when rebuilt, it WILL be weaker than a '67-'68 383...A 1974 440 should be a cast crank pig with something like 7.5:1 compression...The '73-'78 went from 300 HP all the way down to around 180HP in 1978 for the mighty 440....

You will need MORE than a "Purple cam" and a set of closed chamber heads to bring back your '74 440. Sure, they might "Help", but it would be a band aid at best....

Yes, sadly I have excepted that there maybe a 150HP gap or more. I am looking for a band aid fix at the moment because I have the motor pulled but by December 31rst its going back and the Charger is coming up to college with me.

At the moment what I would like to do and what I can do are two diffrent things. Putting high compression pistons in now isn't possible so is my best bet to mess with heads, cam and torque converters and more importantly which ones are going to get the car moving faster?

What is the timing at now? Is the 440 stock as far the cam goes?

Timed back in September (before school) don't remeber, 440 should have low compression heads and stock cams.

[Ghoste]

Overcarbed for the current cam and intake in my opinion. 

[METROID]

Yeah a local friend and my mechanic told me that today. I made the swap from a 400 CFM Carter Carb but even with almost the 500 CFM gap performance seemed nearly Identical between both  .

[Ghoste]

Well a 400 (really?  a 400?) would be the exact opposite and be way too small.  I'm thinking drag racing is not in your plans you just want it to perform like a Charger should on the street?  If that is the case, a mild cam swap (the "purple" cams are not likely the right choice for you), a good aluminum dual plane intake and a carb closer to 750 in size might be a good start for you.

[Rolling_Thunder]

not to sound like an ass but why not put the $1000 into new bearings and rings in the 383 and swap it back in for now ?    Then as your budget allows build a beefy 440 ?   

[METROID]

Exactly I just want the thing to drive like it should on the street. 383 is excessable but when I did the swap I was in high school and had nowhere to put it. I traded the broken 383 to a friend and in exchange he gave me a Cherry Picker and transported the motor for me. My friend said he had no problem letting me swap out heads or cam but everything else is to much trouble.

[greenpigs]

Ok I'll say 268/275 @ .460/.470 advertized. Then a weind action plus intake. Finaly a 750 holley with a Proform main body. The cr is so low that milling the heads may not be worth the hassle of pulling them. Use fel pro 1215 valley pan. Then get some ultra flo mufflers and with whats left look for some used 3.55 ring and pinion.

[greenpigs]

Not sure if you ordered a copy but the engine building and tuning is a must have. Its in the proven combinations and should be the first thing you buy. Its aprox 160 minutes and got 180 worth of material. On my mobile or I'd put a link.

[elacruze]

I think your money would be best spent finding a quality shop with a good, long-term reputation which will verify that your engine is performing the best it can, without swapping parts. You can't know the benefit if you don't have a good baseline. Your engine should at least drive smoothly even if not 'fast'. Once it drives as well as it can, you may find your money better spend on a lower rear axle ratio (which you didn't mention) I'll take a 250hp engine with 4.10 gears over a 400hp engine with 2.73 gears any day.

[firefighter3931]

Once it drives as well as it can, you may find your money better spend on a lower rear axle ratio (which you didn't mention) I'll take a 250hp engine with 4.10 gears over a 400hp engine with 2.73 gears any day.

Nothing wakes a car up like a set of gears.  What are you currently running in the axle ?


Low compression 440's can be improved significantly with the proper setup and tuning. You need a cam that traps some air in the cylinder to build low end power/torque. Short duration and higher lift. The VooDoo #302 grind would be a good choice along with a better intake manifold and 750cfm carb. There's lots of power in the timing curve....low compression builds like lots of ignition advance. 



Ron

[Ghoste]

Just to be clear, you aren't considering pulling the cam out of the 383 and using it are you?

[greenpigs]

Here is a link for the cam Ron recommended.http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-60302/

Remember the 10% off code for Summit in the group buy area.

[mally69]

Whatever it is your going to do ( DO NOT use and old cam and lifters ) get all new cam and lifters. its an absolute must. As for a carb somwehere in the 700-750 cfm would great, and if possible get a double pumper carb, im not a fan of vaccume operated secondary carbs like edelbrock. In my opinion vaccume secondary carbs make your engine feel kinda sluggish. If you cant afford a brand new double pumper, What i did and still do from time to time is go to an old service garage with junk laying everywhere where the mechanic that most likely worked on muscle cars back in the day and ask them if they got any old holleys double pumper carbs laying around, they usually do   If they have one buy a rebuild kit and a 40 dollar jet kit from advance auto for it and put it on.  yea it sounds funny but in my area this happens alot.

[METROID]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I think with my current situation the best thing for me to do is check out that DVD and pickup a good rearend and a carb suited to my motor so the car works decently. Looking at the going prices of older 440's I might be better of swapping out in the future.

For now I have a Holly carb in the garage I can rebuild (believe somewhere around 500-700 CFM range) and a friend offered me a sure grip rearend if I wanted it. I don't know what rearend I have now and can't check because I can't access the car until after the new year. Sure Grip is off a 68 R/T I think I will see if it is still available and start there and and go with a lower gear ratio.

[Ghoste]

Is there a list number on the carb in your garage?

[mauve66]

you can also up the compression with a thinner head gasket, a decent parts store should have several to chose from, it may only raise it .5 but for 30-40 bucks (been a long time since i bought head gaskets) it will help some, i doubt you would run into clearance problems on a basically stock setup

you might pull yours and measure its compressed thickness so you know where to start looking

[METROID]

Is there a list number on the carb in your garage?

Looked last night and couldn't find the carb I will clean out the garage tomorrow and post the numbers up here.

Think when I get to the heads I will look into a thinner gasket  .

Also I found a 4:10 ratio rearend locally but they want $300. I don't know much about rearend prices, ebay and other sites seem to have them even cheaper from $100 and up but then again all of them are in unknown condition.

[alcusswhen]

I had a 383 (1967/1968) Out of either a Dodge station wagon or power wagon, it came in the car when I bought it. The motor backfired, pinged and knocked and only held full compression in 3 of the 8 cylinders. Even with the motor shot the car would take off and tear up the road.

I eventually came across a rebuilt 440 (1974) and I rebuilt the 727 trans and got a new torque converter as well. I haven't fully broken in the motor but ever since the swap the car lags, chokes, and seems to have less power and acceleration than my Fuel efficient economical Honda Civic or the old 383 when it was broken  .

My mechanic Suggested I put in a Purple cam and pre 67 flat heads so my Charger isn't a joke. I realize I have vague info on my car but I was wondering if you guys had any suggestion to fix or make the car better. I was wondering while I have the motor pulled should I put in new heads, cam, and Torque converter  ? I'm not looking to race but I want the car to move better and not be an embarrassment to the Charger name.

(Budget at the moment is under 1k not including labor and I can pull heads from the old 383 if thats the way to go)

That 74 engine is an 8: to 1 compression ratio engine. You need to swape the piston's for a set of 10 to 1 compression ratio pistons. The 74 head is as good or better than the old ones plus they already have hard seats. Take 30 off of them and that 74, 440 will wake up.

[Cooter]

A mid 70's 440 even with the stock steel shim head gasket, still didn't have the compression to run like you want...

Recipe for 440 power in a 70's engine:
1. Closed Chamber heads
2. RV cam
3. Run Steel shim head gasket
4. Headers
5. ALuminum intake dual plane (Pref. RPM probably)
6. MSD ignition
7. Lower rear end gear
8. If that's not enough, there's always Nitrous.....