Broken 383 to rebuilt 440 weaker?

[1Bad70Charger]

No nothing has really changed except I am taking it slow and saving up some more cash. I think I want to tear it down bare and start over at the moment I am not making any big decisions. I am going to check out another rear end tomorrow for the car but beyond that I'm going to idle for a while and not make any rash decision.

Happy New Years!

Smart decision, and Happy New Years to you and everyone else in the performance section here! 

[Ghoste]

Good idea.    Don't forget to keep us updated though.  We love to help other people spend their money in the pursuit of going fast.

[greenpigs]

Good idea.    Don't forget to keep us updated though.  We love to help other people spend their money in the pursuit of going fast.

  Sometimes I wish I had 3.55's and then other times the 4.10 gear. I will be driving mostly in the city so the deep gears are a non issue. I'll trade the kick in the pants of the bigger gear for being able to hit the highway in semi comfort.

[Cooter]

Sorry but I got to this thread a little late.  Is the basic problem solved??
Something sounds fishy here.  This engine sould at least run smoothly. There needs to be some basic trouble shooting done on this engine to get it to perform to its max with the installed equipment.  If you add new parts you may be disappointed because the basic engine isn't performing right.

Even if the '74 440 was performing at above best, it's still a low comp, Dump truck motor, turd..This is why I have three "HP" 440's for sale for what I consider a good deal for what they are and people will always give me the same 'ol thing "Well, I gotta guy here with a '77 440 that's rebuilt and he only wants $500, with trans?" Well, go right ahead and buy that turd with low compression and when you dump it in your ride and it has the power if a typical 350- SBC, then you will understand why the early engines bring more money....

[METROID]

Last photos and updates for a while. First photo is everything pulled off the front end ready for disc conversion (yes, off topic).

Photo of Old 383

Pulled heads which I don't think I'm going to use now or in the future (from the above 383)

and last and most important I made a 100 mile round trip today and got this 3.91. Just my luck the seller has a 69 Charger and is a member on the site. Sadly his Charger was in the shop  . Thanks for the 3.91 Sure Grip 69charger440  .

[greenpigs]

Remember a new speedometer gear and if you don't like the 3.91's you can always put the 3.23 back in.

[Ghoste]

That 3:91 is going to wake it up.

[METROID]

Remember a new speedometer gear and if you don't like the 3.91's you can always put the 3.23 back in.

Yeah I would have never thought about it and then I stumbled on this on accident yesterday. http://www.yearone.com/yodnn/tech/TechFAQ/TransmissionFAQ/MoparSpeedoGearChart/tabid/415/Default.aspx.

I haven't searched on the site yet for the answer but I was wondering If I can put a cluster with a tach into a car that never had one or am I looking at a lot of electrical work?

[greenpigs]

If it is a factory tach then no. Year One lists different harnesses for gages and idiot lights. Yot might be able to splice it together but why? I would add an aftermarket tach, gages.

[Ghoste]

It's fairly easy to route the wire you'll need to run the tach, factory or not.

[TylerCharger69]

is that 440 an hp block?......anyway.....maybe camshaft isnt degreed properly??   and the pistons...are they flat top or dish top?

[Cooter]

is that 440 an hp block?......anyway.....maybe camshaft isnt degreed properly??   and the pistons...are they flat top or dish top?

First of all, an "HP" Block doesn't make any difference as there is NO difference in a "regular" 440 block and an "HP" Block..Second, No such thing as a "Dished" piston in a 440 even all the way up to 1978..Chrysler just sunk 'em in the hole about .150 below the block deck....Just FYI...

[alcusswhen]

The first seven seem like a good list to make sure I check off by the end of the summer by then I will have more cash to do things right.

Just wondering is there any advantage in picking up a mid 60's motor and building it from the ground up instead of messing with the one I have now?

No there would be no advantage. I've been building big mopars sense 1962. All you need to get 400 horse out of that or any 440 is to use the TRW replacement six pac pistons and a mild cam. Mopar performance still has the porting templates and you can get them from Mancini. Porting takes time but its not hard if you follow the directions that come with the templates. By the way that is what Hugh's Engines calls there stage 1 street porting. Hell realy you can spit on a 440 and get 500 horse out of it. Call comp and tell them what your doing and they'll spec a cam for you.

[METROID]

is that 440 an hp block?......anyway.....maybe camshaft isnt degreed properly??   and the pistons...are they flat top or dish top?

Not sure what they are. I never had a need to pull them until recently, unfortunately with the car pulled apart and now me being 500 miles away until March I can't do much. I asked my mechanical to go ahead and just pull the heads for me so I can see where were at (hopfully I will hear back soon and will post then).

The first seven seem like a good list to make sure I check off by the end of the summer by then I will have more cash to do things right.

Just wondering is there any advantage in picking up a mid 60's motor and building it from the ground up instead of messing with the one I have now?

No there would be no advantage. I've been building big mopars sense 1962. All you need to get 400 horse out of that or any 440 is to use the TRW replacement six pac pistons and a mild cam. Mopar performance still has the porting templates and you can get them from Mancini. Porting takes time but its not hard if you follow the directions that come with the templates. By the way that is what Hugh's Engines calls there stage 1 street porting. Hell realy you can spit on a 440 and get 500 horse out of it. Call comp and tell them what your doing and they'll spec a cam for you.

Thanks I will give them a call in a month or so when I got a little bit more $$$.

[greenpigs]

I can't stay away.

   To state the obvious it sounds like you need to swap out your current pistons for the "6 pack" ones. I know KB has some 9.5 pistons. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/44088cc95to1.html I don't know if that is to consecutive for you. I know others run higher CR with iron heads on the street and I think you might be able to compensate with reduced timing. To me it is more of do you want to build a higher CR motor and tone it down so it is pump gas friendly or with a slightly lower Cr that is ready to go when you hit the gas. What I mean by that is if you have the timing backed off so it doesn't denote on the higher CR motor and you need to change the timing and put good gas in to run it hard.
  I am sure others will chime in and your heads will most definitely become more of a factor at the higher CR levels and the larger cam that goes along with it. But of course you could build your short block with upgrading to better heads when you can afford them also...which might be the way to go.
  The HP block should have a windage tray and I think the 6.5 quart oil pan other than that I think they are the same. BTW a windage tray would be a worthwhile addition to your build and all 440's had steel cranks till 73.

[METROID]

As far as CR goes I want at least 9:1 and no more than probably 10.5:1. I know the variables between the numbers may mean I need higher octane but as long as 91 is more than good enough I will be happy. I was also considering using a closed chambered head, most likely 915's unless anyone has any reason I shouldn't  .

All that being said running the "sixpack" pistons am I looking at needing more than 91 octane to run properly? If the answer is yes then I am more likely to consider 9.5's or other similar pistons.

[Ghoste]

You should be okay with the 10.5 compression but make sure the rest of the build is going to take that into account.  The dynamic compression has a lot to do with it too and your cam choice will greatly influence that.

[alcusswhen]

I can't stay away.

   To state the obvious it sounds like you need to swap out your current pistons for the "6 pack" ones. I know KB has some 9.5 pistons. http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/44088cc95to1.html I don't know if that is to consecutive for you. I know others run higher CR with iron heads on the street and I think you might be able to compensate with reduced timing. To me it is more of do you want to build a higher CR motor and tone it down so it is pump gas friendly or with a slightly lower Cr that is ready to go when you hit the gas. What I mean by that is if you have the timing backed off so it doesn't denote on the higher CR motor and you need to change the timing and put good gas in to run it hard.
  I am sure others will chime in and your heads will most definitely become more of a factor at the higher CR levels and the larger cam that goes along with it. But of course you could build your short block with upgrading to better heads when you can afford them also...which might be the way to go.
  The HP block should have a windage tray and I think the 6.5 quart oil pan other than that I think they are the same. BTW a windage tray would be a worthwhile addition to your build and all 440's had steel cranks till 73.

The reason for talking to the folks at Comp is because the right cam lets you run a good cr with out pinging. Not to mention the fact that unlike Ford and GM Mopar big or small blocks because of the valve angle have never been bad about pinging. Also with a .028 crush composition head gasket the six pac piston yields a true 9:8 to one cr.

[METROID]

Good news, After three weeks my mechanic pulled the heads for me. He said at least one side was cracked which makes me wonder if it happend after we first tested compression ratio after the install a few years ago. I also forgot to mention that there was something screwy with the driver side head where the bolt went in at an angle and wouldn't seal properly.

Anyway, the lower end of the block looks great! He said that it looked like the motor had never been run only the heads were crap (from what we can see at the moment). Tomorrow he is going to check and see how the pistons are as far a deck height. If they are high compression I am going to add edelbrock RPM heads, RPM manifold, rebuilt carb, steel crank and a new cam and I think I will be set. If the Pistons are sunk down I am not sure what to do. I am hesitant to tear it down if everything is nice new and tight in there.

I don't want to get to far a head of myself but if I slap on 915's, use steel shims or .028 crush head gasket, and grab the right cam what is the best possible compression I could hope for (say I am .150 in the hole)?

[firefighter3931]

Tomorrow he is going to check and see how the pistons are as far a deck height. If they are high compression I am going to add edelbrock RPM heads, RPM manifold, rebuilt carb, steel crank and a new cam and I think I will be set. If the Pistons are sunk down I am not sure what to do. I am hesitant to tear it down if everything is nice new and tight in there.

I don't want to get to far a head of myself but if I slap on 915's, use steel shims or .028 crush head gasket, and grab the right cam what is the best possible compression I could hope for (say I am .150 in the hole)?

The piston to deck measurement will tell the whole story. 

If the pistons are .150 below deck and you use a .020 steel shim headgasket and install 80cc closed chamber heads the resulting comp ratio is still ~8.5:1. Hopefully those slugs aren't that far down the hole.

Post the results and i'll run the numbers


Ron

[METROID]

 Sunk Sunk Sunk

Pistons are nice and sunk  . Additionaly the the rest of the "rebuild" is not looking so hot eaither. I figure finding a 440 for sale elsewhere is my best move now.

Thanks for your help, I will update what happens next. If anyone near CA has a good motor please give me a PM.

[1Bad70Charger]

Sorry to hear that but you are in the ultimate buyers market and there a ton of 440 engines for sale out their right now on Moparts, ebay, etc, and if you do your due dilligence you could pick up a nice one making between 450 and 500 HP for between $2,500 to $4,000 (for the complete long block) in this (buyer's market) economy.  


There a ton of GREAT OPPURTUNITIES out there right now, as I can think of one person selling a brand new 451 Wedge Motor for $5,500, professionally assembled and never fired up, brand new internals, 10:5 to 1 compression, complete 6 pack engine (that set-up is $2,200 new alone from  Mopar Perf., and it has new Eddy 84 cc alum heads ($1,450 new), and engine should make over 500 HP and well over 500 torque,. This engine is complete from pan to 6 pack carbs and the guy has $8,500 into the build. Just a great example of what I am talking about and I gave that engine some long thought myself for my 6 pack tribute 69 Road Runner!  


HERE IS ANOTHER PERFECT EXAMPLE of what I am talking about from MOPARTS. You can buy this complete set-up giving you a healthy 451 engine (minus cam, carb, intake, etc) for only $1,500!!!  

Here's the easy way to build a 451:

Short block - $800:
Early 400 block
KB Pistons (.030 over)
440 rods - polished and resized w/ ARP studs
Forged 440 Crank, counterweights turned down to fit the block. No block notching. Fully balanced.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/Dukes69/For%20Sale/DSCN1385.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/Dukes69/For%20Sale/DSCN1386.jpg

906 heads - $400:
500 miles after rebuild
ported and polished
2.125int, 1.74exh stainless valves
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/Dukes69/For%20Sale/DSCN1270.jpg

Milodon Deep sump Oil Pan - $250:
oil pick up
windage tray
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/Dukes69/For%20Sale/DSCN1393.jpg

Crane Gold Roller Rockers - $350
MP hold downs
Ball and Cup push rods
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/Dukes69/For%20Sale/DSCN1390.jpg

$1800 seperate, $1500 as a package. Don't really want to ship, but will if you pay the freight.

Thanks
-Chris
Chris@protouringmopar.com
951-551-6181

[METROID]

Thanks 1Bad70Charger, I was feeling a little down today . I think you are right about it being a good time to buy . I looked at completed auctions on ebay and checked moparts too and I feel much better about things.

[1Bad70Charger]

Thanks 1Bad70Charger, I was feeling a little down today . I think you are right about it being a good time to buy . I looked at completed auctions on ebay and checked moparts too and I feel much better about things.

Plenty of great engine out there to be had, just due your homework and due diligence and have it checked out professionally so you know you are buying a rock solid piece. Ideally, you want to get a compression test and leak down test down if its still in the car, and the more documenation obviously the better when it comes to internals of engine, reciepts, machine shop who built short block, talking one on one with engine builder to check out his credentials and knowledge of the engine, how it was stored, etc, etc.

Hang in there bro, its a great time to be looking for a 440 engine, and if you have $5,500 for a 500+ Hp, complete 6 pack 451 engine with all brand new parts, including Eddy 84cc heads, 10:5 to 1 compression, let me know and I will point you in that direction!  

For that price just the 6 pack set-up and the heads retail for over $3,600, and I was just going to yank my 440 engine and put this in my 6 pack 69 Road Runner Tribute Car, as that would be the ideal engine for me since the Runner looks 100% like a 69 1/2 A12 6 pack car (without the 6 pack engine), but $ just a bit too tight for me right now, thanks to my wifes sruggling business in this screwed up economy!  



Just saw this on Racing Junk.com, another great place for potential deals, look what $1,300 gets you:

'67 Mopar 440 engine

$1,350.00

1967 Mopar 440 with factory "wedge" heads. Motor is complete, minus the intake. Motor is disassembled for inspection. Included is the OEM carb, chrome valve covers, extra hyd. cam, TRW engine module with all new rings, bearings and pistons, headers. The motor has been stored for several years and the car that I originaly had to put it in has long since been sold.
Seller Phone Number: 2703624849

[firefighter3931]

Sunk Sunk Sunk

Pistons are nice and sunk  . Additionaly the the rest of the "rebuild" is not looking so hot eaither. I figure finding a 440 for sale elsewhere is my best move now.

Thanks for your help, I will update what happens next. If anyone near CA has a good motor please give me a PM.

The easy way to "fix" that is a set of 2355 SpeedPro 6-pack replacement pistons. These will press onto your factory connecting rods. The 2355's sit pretty close to zero deck and improve static compression significantly.

That 440 block is also usable should you decide to build a stroker in the future.

The factory cast crank is fine for a 500hp street/strip build...plenty strong. 



Ron