Destroying the Turbines

[Ghoste]

This will make you cry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKumqcKuv1g

[69bronzeT5]

I wasn't prepared to see that

[tan top]

watched  documentry on TV years ago about them , had that video clip , sad sight !!  always imagined all the mopar hardware going that way in the late 70s

[Hemidog]

Oh the humaity! 

[Ghoste]

And I know they continued turbine testing for some time after that (I believe they had one in a Diplomat) but there was something about that test that was so looking to the future and then it just seemed like they abandoned it.
I guess I know how the enviro crowd felt when GM crushed all those goofy electric things.

[hemigeno]

I've heard that during the Reagan era, the Feds gave Ford & GM a bunch of R&D money to explore the feasibility of turbine engines in mass-market passenger cars.  Chrysler was passed over for this money, primarily because the Feds thought they already had a leg up on the other two and didn't want to give them too much of an advantage.  Yeah, that makes sense...    If they really wanted to explore turbines further, why not put the money where it would push the limits of knowledge farther along on the learning curve rather than paying someone else to re-invent the wheel?

That's about the time Chrysler gave up on the program, as it seemed that there would be little - if any - market advantage for the years and years of research they had invested (1953 was their first turbine engine, about as big as a washing machine).

I sent that YouTube link to a friend who was involved in the Turbine program since that '53 start, and was there  through the bitter end in the '80s.  I'll report back if he has any comments or additional information about the Ghia cars' destruction.

[bull]

Add this to the many other examples of waste at Chrysler. They didn't realize it at the time of course but how much valuable stuff did they destroy back then that could have gotten them out of their financial fix today?

[hemigeno]

bull, there really was some issue with keeping the Ghia bodies around.  They were imported under a special arrangement for the "test drive" program, but once that was completed it was a different story.  That's why nearly all of them were destroyed - and the ones that DID survive were supposed to have been smashed too.

I don't know the particulars of what mandated the destruction, but the Ghias' destruction wasn't Chrysler's wastefulness on display.  You're correct though, there are innumerable examples of that elsewhere to make up for this one...  

[b5blue]

I think they were concerned about someone reverse engineering their R/D efforts. All the same though I felt like I was seeing an animal being abused watching that. 

[xs29j8Bullitt]

bull, there really was some issue with keeping the Ghia bodies around.  They were imported under a special arrangement for the "test drive" program, but once that was completed it was a different story.  That's why nearly all of them were destroyed - and the ones that DID survive were supposed to have been smashed too.

I don't know the particulars of what mandated the destruction, but the Ghias' destruction wasn't Chrysler's wastefulness on display.  You're correct though, there are innumerable examples of that elsewhere to make up for this one...  

The authorities wanted import taxes paid based on the full development costs... Chrysler saved ten Turbine cars by paying a pro-rated tax...

[hemigeno]

Gotcha... I thought that fewer than 10 cars survived though?

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Gotcha... I thought that fewer than 10 cars survived though?

I believe the number was 10... 2 owned by Chrysler, 2 owned by private owners, the rest owned by museums... but I am not certain. 

Google Time! 

[moparstuart]

 from the article i just read on jay leno's new aquisition , chrysler had 3 and he talked them out of his , so now they have  2    ?

[xs29j8Bullitt]

from the article i just read on jay leno's new aquisition , chrysler had 3 and he talked them out of his , so now they have  2    ?

About 2/3rds down the page on this thread is a post claiming 9 survivors... but the St Louis car is not listed.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43418

[xs29j8Bullitt]

http://www.turbinecar.com/turbine.htm

http://www.turbinecar.com/where.htm

[moparstuart]

from the article i just read on jay leno's new aquisition , chrysler had 3 and he talked them out of his , so now they have  2    ?

About 2/3rds down the page on this thread is a post claiming 9 survivors... but the St Louis car is not listed.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43418

i have gotten to ride in that car , that was a blast both times . Once at monster mopar and once in topeka at Mopar super weekend . Had a chance again a couple years ago in KC at the HPAC show but I let one of my kids go instead .

[bull]

Just imagine if they could have gotten a handle on the emissions and something like this turbine car had been mass-produced between 63 and now. They'll run on damn near anything flammable so you'd think our dependence on foreign oil would have dropped at least somewhat.

So did they have to pay the import taxes on the cars that were not destroyed but seperated from the engines? If not why didn't they just do that with all of them?

[moparstuart]

Just imagine if they could have gotten a handle on the emissions and something like this turbine car had been mass-produced between 63 and now. They'll run on damn near anything flammable so you'd think our dependence on foreign oil would have dropped at least somewhat.

  and if they actually did start building them back then , by now i'm sure the technology would be good enough to make them affordable to all .

[John_Kunkel]

According to several sources most of the Ghia turbines were destroyed to comply with customs laws (no duties had been paid on them).

The idea of a turbine powered car was viable in the sixties when the fuels they could burn were relatively cheap but the simple fact is that turbines are very thirsty and there is no inexpensive fuel these days.

[Brock Samson]

 They also had extremely high operating temps with a quite leasurly 0-60.
Most of the engineering talent was redirected to cleanup conventional engines NOX emissions as in the mid '60s the Anti-smog Regs. were implemented...

 
The man who probably knows more about automotive turbines than anyone in the world is George J. Huebner Jr., research director for Chrysler Corporation and a turbine buff since he began tinkering with its development in 1939.

"Those test cars were powered by the fourth generation engine' says Huebner. "Before the driving program ended, a fifth engine had been developed and we had started work on the sixth design to be used for research purposes only."

"It was about that time that ecology, a word then relatively unfamiliar to the public, began to rival the Vietnam War for page one attention. California, particularly, took legislative steps to clean up its atmosphere.

"It quickly became apparent that we were up against a situation that would require everything we could throw at it:' Huebner continued. "That was the prob1cm of oxides of nitrogen (NOx), a major component of Los Angeles smog. It was a case of all hands to the pump to check NOx emissions on the conventional piston engine. Experts in this area were hard to come by and our most able engineers were in the turbine project. They moved over and explored catalysts and exhaust manifold reactor systems to reduce chemical emissions on our internal combustion engines. meanwhile, turbine work stopped except for some experiments with its combustion and metallurgy."





 
from:
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,25267.0.html


  More:
"The Chrysler turbines had reached a - point where the information available suggested one direction: production. - Armed with data gathered in the 50-car program. Chrysler engineers developed a fifth generation engine and set about - planning for a new and larger program. Bill Brownlie of Chrysler Product Development recalls just how close we came to actually being able to buy - turbines: "Lynn Townsend called Elwood Engel, myself and others into a meeting during the time of the 50-car program and we discussed actually offering a new turbine car on a limited basis to what would have been virtually hand-picked customers as a test of public acceptance. In that meeting it was decided to build a limited number of special-bodied turbines-that body became the '66 Charger fastback."

Tom Golec, supervisor of car development recalls that low-volume tooling was ordered and approximately 500 Turbine Chargers were planned for the initial run. Mr. Golec points out that - a special no-slip clutch unit was developed for the '66 Turbine Charger, but was never used due to very high cost. Supposedly two '66 Turbine Chargers with the special clutch were built, but they were never shown to the - public. The Charger became a sporty Dodge with a conventional engine and slightly different trim (the Turbine job had a grille opening much like the 1970 Challenger)...the project was stillborn.

What killed the project? The mid- - sixties produced a variety of rumblings out of Washington. Insurance - companies clamped down on supercars, safety laws were written and smog laws took effect. Once the Clean Air Act - became reality. it specified control of NOX emissions and. according to - George Huebner, it was not known at that time if the turbine would meet future NOX requirements. The first direct result was to shelve the '66 Turbine Charger. The government was now in the car-making business and Chrysler was out of the turbine car business-at least on any mass scale. Regulations on conventional engines took on very high priorities, and though a sixth-generation engine was developed to meet NOX standards. Little was done with it-engineers were largely occupied with the emissions problems of piston engines."

from:
http://www.turbinecar.com/sia/sia57.htm

[Todd Wilson]

The idea of a turbine powered car was viable in the sixties when the fuels they could burn were relatively cheap but the simple fact is that turbines are very thirsty and there is no inexpensive fuel these days.

That pretty well sums it all up there!   There were many outfits trying turbine stuff back in the 50's and 60's  Kenworth even had a turbine semi truck. I've got a dodge M37 picture around here some where.


Todd

[Ghoste]

Ford had a turbine semi too.

[Todd Wilson]

Heres the Kenworth pictures......

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=boeing+gas+turbine+engine+source:life&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=21



There were even turbine locomotives but they were really thirsty.


Todd

[Aero426]

Add this to the many other examples of waste at Chrysler. They didn't realize it at the time of course but how much valuable stuff did they destroy back then that could have gotten them out of their financial fix today?

They also should have mothballed ten wing cars, the first Hemi Charger of each year, the first Road Runner,  the first Six Pack,

Just the fact that they were able to save some of the Turbines (no doubt the best ones of the lot)  was forward thinking.   Car companies are in business to sell cars, not maintain museums.

OK, let's say they saved all of those Turbine cars - even the rode hard put away wet ones that consumers beat on.   If there were 50 of them available today, they wouldn't be worth the seven figures plus it would take to buy one now.     But let's say each of those 50 were worth a million a pop, AND they had to pay no duties on them.    What is that going to buy today?   Factor in the cost of labor and storage maintaining them sitting around for 40 years and the answer of what they would buy is "Not a whole lot."  

I am sure the folks who tore those cars apart were not happy to do it.  

[bull]

The idea of a turbine powered car was viable in the sixties when the fuels they could burn were relatively cheap but the simple fact is that turbines are very thirsty and there is no inexpensive fuel these days.

That pretty well sums it all up there!   There were many outfits trying turbine stuff back in the 50's and 60's  Kenworth even had a turbine semi truck. I've got a dodge M37 picture around here some where.


Todd

Yes, pretty much everything was very thirsty back then. Technology moved forward though...