340 N/A or Forced Induction?

[Cole317]

Well, I'm building a 340, and i'm wondering what my best bet would be to get the most performance. Should I stick with building the motor itself like stroke, bore, new heads etc.. or go with the forced induction? I've seen the Chevy 350's built with stock cast iron heads and a 90somethin mm turbo haul into the 11's...
I want to drive this car on the street so I dont want a gnarly stall, but i want that fast ET soo bad
so heres my main question, which would be cheapest and most reliable way to get some major hp, and do you know of any turbo or s/c kits for a 340, or should I just stick with the n/a route?
thanks for any help or even just for reading that whole thing, im looking forward to fryin the tires!

[lisiecki1]

check past issues of mopar action, if i'm not mistaken they built an almost 600 horse 340 that was streetable....i think.....be prepared to shell out some cash to build anything right though.  ultimately your cheapest route might be a crate 440 

[Cole317]

Here's the article I think you were talking about http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/engine/mopp_0310_340_engine_600_hp/index.html
But they did it with an R3 block, dont I have an R1? I think it's a 71 or 72 with the thermoquad If that tells you anything. Also, I wonder just how streetable that is, cause I would be driving on the street 75% of the time... 
As for the 440, I was going to go that route but settled with the 340 cause I got it for free and i didnt want to have to get a new cross member, and lastly, this is just gonna be a sleeper hopefully a small block in  a boat (73 charger) will sound very slow  
Thanks for the reply!

[lisiecki1]

you should be able to get atleast 500 streetable horsepower out of your 340....the only problems with this is (1) you're not going to get into the 11's with 500 horse in a '73 (my 400 horse 360 had me in the high 13's - i don't forsee 100 horsepower cutting almost 3 sec. off your time....unless you gear the crap out of the rear end--but then we're back to not being streetable) and (2) it's not going to sound slow unless you put a real restrictive, crappy exhaust on it and have cutouts for when you want to run, but with this setup, think tickets....uncorked headers attract law enforcement almost as good as doughnuts......

[Cole317]

whoops first, when I said sound slow I didnt mean literally, I plan on running the cutouts for the whole "it wasnt me officer" routine    I meant like small engine in a big car sounds slow, i hope i'm making sense..  I'm still planning on having no interior, just aluminum sheets, two buckets, and a roll cage, so maybe that'll lighten the load and a 150 shot might get me going a little bit. Either way, I should have plenty of power for the street right?
thanks again

[lisiecki1]

i think that "enough power for the street" is relative....when I was at 400 hp it was enough for the street....so, in my opinion, you'll have plenty of power for the street even without the nos....not to sound like an old codger or anything (i'm 30) but I really hope you're not trying to build something for some "fast and furious" action on the street.....I've lost a lot of friends that were extremely talented drivers and riders in the last two years because they made piss-poor decisions and were street racing    when one of them went, he wasn't alone...if you get my drift...

oh, and the small engine, big car thing....i understand what you're saying....just tell everyone it's a 318....they look the same.....

[Cole317]

Well, I'm 16 and drive around an sl55 amg so believe me, tons of my friends and other people have wanted to race, but i never have and never will, just something i find extremely ignorant and selfish. But I love to have the power when I want it like getting on the freeway etc. The sl55 is a mid 12 sec car from what I've read and uh here it goes... It doesnt seem too quick anymore But back to my point,
I just want a sick street car that I can fry the tires, cruise, and run some good ETs..

Oh and the mercedes is my grandpa's not mine, but its soooo much fun to drive 

[Troy]

Seems like an incredible waste...

Ok, so you want to "sound slow" when you tell people it's a small block in a big car but then you're going to strip it down so it's completely obvious that you're in a street legal race car? Why not stick in a big block (383s are cheaper to build than your 340) and tell people it's a small block? I bet 90+% can't tell the difference. Or, use a 360 which automatically gives you 20 cubes and is cheaper to build. Rather than some sort of forced induction (cuz that's not really obvious is it?), why not just stroke a small block? Remember to keep it simple - especially on the street.

Troy

[Ghoste]

And at the risk of insulting all the smallblock owners out there who could easily kick my cars ass from here to Sunday, the Charger is heavy car and heavy cars like torque.  Torque is more easily and cheaply gotten with the large displacement big blocks.
My guess is that you aren't taking it to the strip, you aren't racing anyone on the street, you want it to look and sound like the baddest mother on the planet and "feel" fast merging onto the highway.  Torque is going to be your around town friend.
FWIW, forced induction is not cheap either especially by the time you science out the combination and as Troy said, it's certainly not stealthy.  Going with a turbo won't give it away as much as a blower but once you open the hood it'll be hard to hide.

[Cole317]

Yes you're right in one way, I do want it to look and sound gnarly but I'm not the kind of guy who flies in and out of lanes and speeds. Also I do plan on going to the strip as much as possible, but I dont want to sacrifice streetability. And I went with the 340 because i got it for free and was considering a BB but I couldn't get a new x-member, and I was told my stock 904 wouldn't bolt up to it. So from what you guys are saying, I wont go forced induction.
And Let me try to explain this better, I'm not into racing or flying on the street, But I think it would be cool to say it's just a small block and people automatically go    but take em for a ride or start it up and have it change their mind. I just hope you guys dont get the wrong Idea about me, saying I drive around an sl55 (that isnt mine) and want to have a badass car.
thanks for the help guys!

[Ghoste]

What kind of budget do you have to work with?

[HPP]

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong or have the wrong impression but I'm seeing some things here that don't add up.

so heres my main question, which would be cheapest and most reliable way to get some major hp, and do you know of any turbo or s/c kits for a 340, or should I just stick with the n/a route?

This starts with a contradiction because you ask about the cheapest, then throw in reliable and ask about forced induction. Nothing about forced induction is cheap to the vast majority of car builders.

Also I do plan on going to the strip as much as possible, but I dont want to sacrifice streetability. And I went with the 340 because i got it for free and was considering a BB but I couldn't get a new x-member, and I was told my stock 904 wouldn't bolt up to it.

This reinforces budget build because you got a free engine, don't want to change transmissions, or replace the crossmember (do you mean K frame?). If this is a budget effort, I really don't see forced induction as possible unless you've got a lot of fabrication skills to adapted unintended equipment to match up to your 340. This is the point most achine shops will ask you what the budget is. Whatever it takes to run 11s isn't the kind of answer that is going to give you a budget build.

So, the cheapest, easiest, most reliable way to make gobs of power is with lots of displacement. This is why big blocks are so popular. A 496 stroker kit in a 440 will cost you less than building the equivilent 340 with a blower or turbo kit, and that include buying a 440 block, replacing the transmission and K frame. Even if you do build a major power house 340, without corresponding work on the tranmission to hold up to the power, it is a grenade waiting to go off, so your going to be building a transmission anyway.

Are you really planning on bracket racing consistently? If so, then consistency and repeatability of the combination are far more important than e.t. or mph. A car that runs dead nuts on a 16.955 dial in will win more often over a car that runs 11.02 then 11.50, than 11. 75 every day.


If you do decide on the stealth look and put together a budget to do it right, Then I'd say have a 440 small block built for it. Yes, they are out there, and yes, they are expensive. Then, there is a company offer a rear mounted turbo kit that sits back where the mufflers would go. It does have some lag with it, but with 440 inches in a small block, the torque numbers could carry things till the turbo spools. Things look kinda stock, but the big 4" tube running into the top of the engine is kinda a give away other things are going on. Expect to pay around $25k to put together a combination like this.

[LeadfootBob]

How about just building a stock longblock 318 turbo setup, pour some cash into EFI, transmission and rear end, then learning how to tune it? If you nuke a stock 318, big deal, just dig one out of the nearest van...
The real cost will be building the EFI hardware, but this stuff you can just move to the next engine when the time comes to drop a serious one in there.
Right about now I'm looking at this route but with a stock low-comp 440.
I can't find the thread now, but a guy on turbomustangs.com ran close to 700hp through a stock bottom end mid-eighties chevy 350 with a set of good heads, turbos and EFI. My friend has a daily driver Volvo with 300hp/500nm  in a B230 turbo (2.3 liters) without any real strain on the engine... Stock bottom end, mildly ported head, cam etc. 5-600 through a 318 sounds pretty feasible to me, as long as you keep your revs down and don't mind the occasional unplanned engine swap.

[Cole317]

Ok so I see the confusion now, well as for my budget goes, My relative owns a body shop so the whole labor thing doesnt matter, and he also has connections with all the dealers and a few mechanics. My problem is just knowing what to build and how, and thought I could get some oppinions. So from what you guys are saying is that a turbo or S/C would be out of the question for reliability. I've almost made up my mind I want to stay small block route and maybe later if I actually want more power, i'll try and save up for a big block set up.  
The thing I see keep coming up is build a big block....
I dont want to start a new thread for this little question and I think it relates to my original topic but how hard would it be to just build a screamin small block 340? Forget about ET and stuff, just have a fun small block mopar?
thanks guys appreciate all the help!

[Challenger340]

It's not that a Turbo/Blower is out of the question for reliability, IMO, it keeps coming back to whats "under" that setup for reliability ?  Either way you're still looking $$ for a good Engine capable of withstanding/delivering the power under Boost conditions.

Off Topic Story;
I had this same Quandry with a customer years ago.
He has a 69 B Body, and wanted to stay Small Block at all cost.
I tried and failed in successive attempts to change his mind and go BB, given that he wanted to go Bracket Racing and Street Driving.
Finally,
I built him what he wanted, a Pump Gas, Flat Tappet Solid Cam, Stroker Small Block/INDY Head deal that Dyno'd at 540 H.p.
He was ecstatic, and could clock low 12's N/A, and deep 11's on the steroids with the BIG HEAVY CAR.

That lasted about 2 years, then as is ALWAYS the case he wanted more, but STILL wanted the Small Block, so I tweaked it to just over 610 H.P. with more Compression and Headwork, albeit still on a Flat Tappet Solid Cam(different grind), so he could maintain more Street Driving reliably. (I don't like Race Rollers on the Street)
Now he goes Mid 11's N/A, and juices down to low 10's on a Big Shot.

I dunno how long the stock 360 Block is gonna last under those conditions ?
Even with the Girdle I added, it's more "when", rather than "if" it's gonna let go, given we're now 2 more years out again.
Now,  he's contemplating a Mega-Block based 540 INDY deal, same as what I tried explaining to him 4 years back was the way to go for 900 H.P. N/A, when I was showing him Dyno Sheets from other 540"s  I've done for guys.

Morale of the story here, and I know this is very hard to do, but realistically, sit down, slow down, and decide realistically "what" you wanna do with the Car, and more importantly, what you can realistically afford "Financially" to do with the Car, to suit your needs.
BB route is not the "be all-end all" either.
They also have issues much past 600 H.P. on stock Blocks, albeit they are easier to garner better Torque/H.P. curves much lower than the SB Engines.

Apologizes for the long-winded reply, but remember, "one can never exceed the speed of their Wallet".

[Cole317]

Hey thanks, that was pretty much the exact reply I was hoping for, If I could do something like that first 540HP build I think It would be perfect, and for when I took it to the strip I could shoot a little nitrous and be more than satisfied, cause I really do want this to be a street car 75% of the time.
And when It comes time to step up, although I'm sure it would be for a different car, like for mostly strip use,  I would go BB.

[lisiecki1]

It's not that a Turbo/Blower is out of the question for reliability, IMO, it keeps coming back to whats "under" that setup for reliability ?  Either way you're still looking $$ for a good Engine capable of withstanding/delivering the power under Boost conditions.

Off Topic Story;
I had this same Quandry with a customer years ago.
He has a 69 B Body, and wanted to stay Small Block at all cost.
I tried and failed in successive attempts to change his mind and go BB, given that he wanted to go Bracket Racing and Street Driving.
Finally,
I built him what he wanted, a Pump Gas, Flat Tappet Solid Cam, Stroker Small Block/INDY Head deal that Dyno'd at 540 H.p.
He was ecstatic, and could clock low 12's N/A, and deep 11's on the steroids with the BIG HEAVY CAR.

That lasted about 2 years, then as is ALWAYS the case he wanted more, but STILL wanted the Small Block, so I tweaked it to just over 610 H.P. with more Compression and Headwork, albeit still on a Flat Tappet Solid Cam(different grind), so he could maintain more Street Driving reliably. (I don't like Race Rollers on the Street)
Now he goes Mid 11's N/A, and juices down to low 10's on a Big Shot.

I dunno how long the stock 360 Block is gonna last under those conditions ?
Even with the Girdle I added, it's more "when", rather than "if" it's gonna let go, given we're now 2 more years out again.
Now,  he's contemplating a Mega-Block based 540 INDY deal, same as what I tried explaining to him 4 years back was the way to go for 900 H.P. N/A, when I was showing him Dyno Sheets from other 540"s  I've done for guys.

Morale of the story here, and I know this is very hard to do, but realistically, sit down, slow down, and decide realistically "what" you wanna do with the Car, and more importantly, what you can realistically afford "Financially" to do with the Car, to suit your needs.
BB route is not the "be all-end all" either.
They also have issues much past 600 H.P. on stock Blocks, albeit they are easier to garner better Torque/H.P. curves much lower than the SB Engines.

Apologizes for the long-winded reply, but remember, "one can never exceed the speed of their Wallet".

a 540 horse 340 is going to run 8-10K to build it right, correct?

[HPP]

but remember, "one can never exceed the speed of their Wallet".

That is classic and so close to the truth its painful!!

[Challenger340]

It's not that a Turbo/Blower is out of the question for reliability, IMO, it keeps coming back to whats "under" that setup for reliability ?  Either way you're still looking $$ for a good Engine capable of withstanding/delivering the power under Boost conditions.

Off Topic Story;
I had this same Quandry with a customer years ago.
He has a 69 B Body, and wanted to stay Small Block at all cost.
I tried and failed in successive attempts to change his mind and go BB, given that he wanted to go Bracket Racing and Street Driving.
Finally,
I built him what he wanted, a Pump Gas, Flat Tappet Solid Cam, Stroker Small Block/INDY Head deal that Dyno'd at 540 H.p.
He was ecstatic, and could clock low 12's N/A, and deep 11's on the steroids with the BIG HEAVY CAR.

That lasted about 2 years, then as is ALWAYS the case he wanted more, but STILL wanted the Small Block, so I tweaked it to just over 610 H.P. with more Compression and Headwork, albeit still on a Flat Tappet Solid Cam(different grind), so he could maintain more Street Driving reliably. (I don't like Race Rollers on the Street)
Now he goes Mid 11's N/A, and juices down to low 10's on a Big Shot.

I dunno how long the stock 360 Block is gonna last under those conditions ?
Even with the Girdle I added, it's more "when", rather than "if" it's gonna let go, given we're now 2 more years out again.
Now,  he's contemplating a Mega-Block based 540 INDY deal, same as what I tried explaining to him 4 years back was the way to go for 900 H.P. N/A, when I was showing him Dyno Sheets from other 540"s  I've done for guys.

Morale of the story here, and I know this is very hard to do, but realistically, sit down, slow down, and decide realistically "what" you wanna do with the Car, and more importantly, what you can realistically afford "Financially" to do with the Car, to suit your needs.
BB route is not the "be all-end all" either.
They also have issues much past 600 H.P. on stock Blocks, albeit they are easier to garner better Torque/H.P. curves much lower than the SB Engines.

Apologizes for the long-winded reply, but remember, "one can never exceed the speed of their Wallet".

a 540 horse 340 is going to run 8-10K to build it right, correct?

Yes, you would be accurate in that price range.
Then,
Don't forget the Drivetrain(Trans, Convertor, Gear & Tire), Suspension, Fuel System , Ignition, Cooling and Exhaust system upgrades on the vehicle, to make an Acceptable Car Platform, to support a 540 HP Small Block on pump gas under the rigors of Street/Strip Duties !

It seems to me, "sometimes", that guys forget that a Powerful Engine, is only ONE small fraction of the TOTAL cost of what is REQUIRED in making a Car go FAST !

My contention has always been with the "street" crowd anyways, that less should be spent Engine-wise, in favor of Vehicular upgrades as mentioned above, so as to provide a better overall Performance "Package", that will ultimately go FASTER, LONGER, and them HAPPIER !
Seen it time and again, a guy with 450 HP and a well setup Car, clocks "DUFUS" with 520HP in a TERD !

Don't forget the rest of the Car !

[Cole317]

Well I've decided that the power difference of a BB vs a SB is a bit over my head and that the 340 should give me plenty. This will be my first muscle type car and wicked fast or not, i'm stoked to have a charger and I think down the road if i can save up enough money I'll go looking into a big block.
thanks for the help

[lisiecki1]

fyi, if you set up the suspension and brakes you will be really excited with how much fun it is to drive your charger....the suspension modifications going on my 73 are probably 80% of why i'm so excited to get it back together.....it's going to be a blast to drive!

[Cole317]

Hey guys, I just want to give you a little update.....I was going to send the 340 out tomorrow to be built, buuuttttt a friend told me his brother had a 440 and 727 for sale, and he'd give me a deal, well i took it.
soo yeah, i got a 440, no more concern for enough power eh, this thing makes the 340 look like a paper weight!

[FLG]

Dont forget to get some subframe connectors if you plan on running her hard on a daily basis. Not only for the fact that you dont want to be twisting any sheet metal...but also makes a huge difference with just normal driving. Really stiffens these cars up.

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Chiming in late but I like turbo's.

They are easy on driveline and make it big at the end of the track. I turbo'ed a 225 and with a small turbo I eat 318's. I know not a big comparison but that is a stock 70 225 with 105 HP and a 7-1/4 open rear end. I built my own setup and it cost me 600 bucks but take a bit of time to jet correctly.

I know of one guy with a stock 225 with an intercooler and big turbo that runs 12's with a 3 speed and 3.23 gears, pretty respectable I think.

I just bought an engine plate and am pulling my 225 and dropping in a big block. I bought a set of new  headers set up for twin turbo's for 125. I am planning on setting up a twin turbo 440 in my 70 Duster. I would expect it to make considerable horsepower and be extremely streetable. The caveat is it will take some time to tune but once you are there then you have it made. Check out turboforums.com. They can help you on your way if this is an option you choose. Naturally aspirated is nice but turbo cars work really well once  setup.