Aftermarket fuel injection

[Mike DC]

   
There's a lot to like about the modern motor but it has less torque than the old one. 

[Rolling_Thunder]

hmmmm    I understand that argument but honestly its not much different...    stock 440 = 375hp and 480tq...      Stock 6.1 = 425hp and 420tq...     yes it is less torque (60) but the newer engines have broader power bands, better street manners, and better economy...      I think the small sacrifice in tq (but increase in hp) is worth it...    yes I compared the 440 to the 6.1 stock for stock; i did not use the 426 hemi because of its general rare nature - as most people run a 440 in their cars...        even then the hemi only put out 490tq...    not a huge difference than the 440...   

[elacruze]

I have two engines in the works, the second of which will be built with discovery in mind as much as performance. I'll use a custom manifold with port injection, with an Adaptronic ECU (http://www.adaptronic.co.uk/) for engine management, and probably build a custom set of headers for it. One of the things I'm interested in (I'm sure this has been done, but not by me) is how much more or less potential is in my old motor than in a new one. My expectation is that the performance of the old engine will be at least on par in every area with the new engine, up to the design limitations (RPM and weight, etc) with no deficits except for efficiency, which is a design characteristic also. I think a 440 RB can be made to outperform a 6.1 Hemi in every category except fuel efficiency below 6000rpm.

Even if I'm wrong, it will be fun to find out.

[Ghoste]

I am looking forward to seeing all of your results in that (not so) little experiment.

[Cooter]

hmmmm    I understand that argument but honestly its not much different...    stock 440 = 375hp and 480tq...      Stock 6.1 = 425hp and 420tq...     yes it is less torque (60) but the newer engines have broader power bands, better street manners, and better economy...      I think the small sacrifice in tq (but increase in hp) is worth it...    yes I compared the 440 to the 6.1 stock for stock; i did not use the 426 hemi because of its general rare nature - as most people run a 440 in their cars...        even then the hemi only put out 490tq...    not a huge difference than the 440...   

By no means am I Trying to talk you out of a Newer Hemi conversion, all I was saying is 440 purchase price (Without the super crazy hook up on the Hemi's price, as around here, most will be spending in the neighborhood of around $6000.00 for an engine and trans), equals around $500-1000 and for $3500 more, you can have a nice 550 HP 440 and around 570 Ft Lbs of torque....With the newer Hemi, you will spend the entire budget for the buy and rebuild on just the engine..When it comes to fuel economy, To me, it just isn't worth it for the WOW,Fuel economy, or the trouble of rigging up all that computer EFI crap for an extra 6-9 MPG....But, that's just me..It is no longer a question of cubic inches anymore...It only a question of cubic dollars......

[suntech]

But, that's just me..It is no longer a question of cubic inches anymore...It only a question of cubic dollars......

Excuse me for beeing ruedly honest here, no harm ment,but that is not really a newsflash!!  It has allways been like that!!A lot of cubes and a lot of money will in most cases beat smaller cube on a tight budget!!

[Rolling_Thunder]

I did not take it as you were trying to talk me out of it...    (it's a little late anyway    haha) - but you make valid points...   the typical 440 is indeed more cost effective - but deals are out there...    I do all my own work as some others on this board so it allows me to keep the cost down on my engine swap...     I spent <$3000 on a complete 6.1 hemi (plus parts to install it and all that) = the total is $5,431.76     

Granted I was in the right place at the right time...    I sold my freshly rebuilt 440 for $3000...   so in essence it was almost a free engine trade for me...         I know this is not the normal situation but if you're in the right place at the right time anything is possible.

[firefighter3931]

hmmmm    I understand that argument but honestly its not much different...    stock 440 = 375hp and 480tq...      Stock 6.1 = 425hp and 420tq...     yes it is less torque (60) but the newer engines have broader power bands, better street manners, and better economy...     

I agree with the better fuel economy comment but i have to disagree on the broader powerband & street manners. A mild 440 with the right cam will pull hard from idle to redline. Even a stock 440 made peak torque at 3200 and feels real strong down low. In a 3900lb car 60ftlbs of torque is huge....

      I think the small sacrifice in tq (but increase in hp) is worth it...    yes I compared the 440 to the 6.1 stock for stock   

This is where we disagree....i'll trade 60ftlbs for 60hp any day of the week. Wanna guess which car will accelerate faster.    Which do you think would be more fun to drive ? 


The new hemi is a descent engine but it's no 440 ! 



Ron

[Cooter]

hmmmm    I understand that argument but honestly its not much different...    stock 440 = 375hp and 480tq...      Stock 6.1 = 425hp and 420tq...     yes it is less torque (60) but the newer engines have broader power bands, better street manners, and better economy...      

I agree with the better fuel economy comment but i have to disagree on the broader powerband & street manners. A mild 440 with the right cam will pull hard from idle to redline. Even a stock 440 made peak torque at 3200 and feels real strong down low. In a 3900lb car 60ftlbs of torque is huge....

     I think the small sacrifice in tq (but increase in hp) is worth it...    yes I compared the 440 to the 6.1 stock for stock    

This is where we disagree....i'll trade 60ftlbs for 60hp any day of the week. Wanna guess which car will accelerate faster.    Which do you think would be more fun to drive ?  


The new hemi is a descent engine but it's no 440 !  



Ron

Amen......................Somethin' bout a small block chevy sized Piston just don't sit right with me..And, if you want more Cubes, you have to run a locomotive Crank in the new Hemi to even get it up to 426 C.I.

With that much crank in a 440 would be something like a 600"-655" engine...THEN, we'll see who's torque curve is flatter.....Can you say 1000 Lb ft at 3000 rpm's...Ye' who starts with a bigger engine will Always end up with the bigger engine...That's my philosophy anyway...

[Paul G]

The way I am looking at this is not for the cost advantage of carb over FI. Carb is cheaper by far. My 72 runs awesome with the 750 Holley on it right now. No need to change it. Not for which makes more power either. It is more about being different at cruise night, car shows and just doing something different. It is great to see all the big Holleys and dual Eddy's at car shows and what not, but seeing a 5.7 or 6.1 or a 392 in one of our older muscle cars is just cool. Same thing with a vintage Hemi if it is not an original Hemi car. It's just cool to see someone who did something differently.

Putting a 6.1 Hemi under my hood is really my goal.   I just dont have the ability.   The Pro Flo kit is my next choice.  

 

[Ghoste]

It's not something I plan to do again I applaud anyone who makes the experiment.  Imagine if no one had ever thought to stick an old 331 Hemi between the frame rails of one of those derelict Fords from the 30's?

[Finn]

I'm running the edelbrock kit on my 440. I'll post a quick write up of my experiance thus far once I'm on my computer (on my phone right now).

[mopar_nut_440_6]

Do you have specs on your engine because running a 750 on a 360 seems large unless you have a pretty well built small block and a 4 speed or high stall and low geras. I ran a 750 on a 440 and was running 12's with a 4 speed it and it's street manners were great and the throttle response was to say the least exceptional. That in mind I raced every two weeks for 7 years on the drag strip with the same combo so it was very well tuned. Perhaps matching the carb to engine may improve overall drive ability. Smaller carb better street manners and a better transition between partial and full throttle. Just throwing it out there.

Here is my problem with newer fuel injected vehicles. This is just my rant so bear with me!

My stock 68-375 horse 440 always got 16 mpg and whether I drove it hard or not. My 2003 pickup with a 5.7 Hemi only gets 9 mpg in town but seems to have equal power to the 440. Two of the other fuel injected pickups I own or have owned, one with a 360 and a 5 speed and one with a 318 and an auto both seem to have poor mileage compared to a carbureted engine. The 360 only got about 12 in town and the 318 does much better at 16 but still I always think that why do these fuel injected engines get such poor mileage when my carbureted 440 could get 16 and make tons more power?

That said, the newer engines now seem to get better mileage and have great performance so the have worked some stuff out.

I have a stroker which gets 8 mpg if I drive decent, 5 if I am on it. I have considered fuel injection hoping that it could do better and warrant the cost of the setup. Tuning on fuel injection is no issue for me as I am a programmer by trade, understand engines and tuning and know I could make it work but am still waiting for the definite information which would tell me that my dollars invested would make it a worthwhile investment. To me a well setup Holley carb is still the answer.

I am looking forward to hearing what you do and hoping to get additional information to make me want to swap my carb for FI.

Cheers,

[Ghoste]

I suppose that part of the reason would be that carbs had several decades of development and that to a small degree it still requires X amount of fuel to generate X amount of work which is needed to move X weight X distance at X speed?  The mileage differences creep into the variables?   

[Cooter]

My stock 68-375 horse 440 always got 16 mpg and whether I drove it hard or not. My 2003 pickup with a 5.7 Hemi only gets 9 mpg in town but seems to have equal power to the 440. Two of the other fuel injected pickups I own or have owned, one with a 360 and a 5 speed and one with a 318 and an auto both seem to have poor mileage compared to a carbureted engine. The 360 only got about 12 in town and the 318 does much better at 16 but still I always think that why do these fuel injected engines get such poor mileage when my carbureted 440 could get 16 and make tons more power?
This because even with a small block in a truck weighing over 4500 LBs, you have to step in it further to do the same work as a big block would at lower RPM's....
That said, the newer engines now seem to get better mileage and have great performance so the have worked some stuff out.

I have a stroker which gets 8 mpg if I drive decent, 5 if I am on it. I have considered fuel injection hoping that it could do better and warrant the cost of the setup. Tuning on fuel injection is no issue for me as I am a programmer by trade, understand engines and tuning and know I could make it work but am still waiting for the definite information which would tell me that my dollars invested would make it a worthwhile investment. To me a well setup Holley carb is still the answer.Amen, Holley Carb=$500-$600 Brand new and works right out the box....Fuel injection set up and all hardware/software to run it= Over $5000.00 for a set up that will support 750 HP, all for around 3-5 MPG difference...

I am looking forward to hearing what you do and hoping to get additional information to make me want to swap my carb for FI.

Cheers,

[defiance]

$5000?  are you buying gold plated stuff?  I've rebuilt mine about 3-4 times and I'm about to again, and I still won't hit $5000 in it.  The setup (which I decided yesterday to upgrade to) will be a sequential injection with fuel capabilities for about 850 hp (though I'd probably need to upgrade fuel pump if I pass 700 ), coil-near-plug, with an amazing tuning suite (including auto-tuning for fuel map, though it isn't live auto-tuning -yet (that's in development).  Dual wideband oxygen sensors, datalogging to an SD card, the ability to tune EVERYTHING from the passenger's seat (or the driver's seat if you're at a dyno), I could add dual egt sensors for a relatively small additional cost, the list goes on and on - there are a ***LOT*** of extras in this config, and I could reproduce the entire setup for around $2500, I believe.  A basic setup could be MUCH lower than that and still support more than 750hp, and scaling what the fi system will support is just a matter of swapping injectors and maybe a larger throttle body (fuel pump has to be upgraded for either system, so I don't count that).  

Having said that, I'll certainly agree Carbs are GREAT, and I won't dispute that by any means.  They're perfect to put on a car and go.  But efi has its place too.

[Ghoste]

Is that an off the shelf setup or something that you've put together by the individual parts?

[Cooter]

The last time I checked with a buddy (Mustang 5.0) on the price of his Turbocharged Fuel injection set up to handle up to 1000  HP From F A S T Fuel inj. JUST the software and laptop was $4500.00...This wasn't counting the Injectors, Throttle body, CUSTOM intake, wiring harness, computer, etc....I know full and well, that there are some "Cobbled" together systems that function "OK"...I'm talking bout a "Plug and Play" system for the beginner carb guy that can buy it, dump it on his motor, and not have $4500.00 in software if he wants to go over 1000 HP later on....

Isn't the Edelbrock "kit" Like $3500.00 or something?

[Paul G]

The Edelbrock kit is $3100 give or take. Mass Flo has a kit also. They want $3700 for it.

[defiance]

f.a.s.t. pricing is crazy.  ms-2 can do everything but sequential injection for under $400, and the ms-3 will add that with an expected price of around $600.  Until lately most people preferred the FAST tuning software, but with the release of TunerStudio, I doubt that will remain the case.  But anyway, no, pieced together is still quite a bit less expensive than the bundles. 

[autodynamics]

I Have 10k on my transplant and I bet I drive it more than most guys here....I have plenty of power. There is no substitute for technology.

[Cooter]

For $10K, it better get driven....For that, Most can build a nice complete stroker engine...Sure, there's a substitute for technology, it's called M O N E Y...You ain't got it, you have to make your own "Technology"...

[autodynamics]

I mean I have 10k on my fuel injection system ... more than most members here.

[kamkuda]

As we all know, power comes from proper spark timing and AF mixture.

I always though (lean is mean) and power is made from air fuel.

A properly tuned engine builds a lot of its power through the timing it has over its operating range.  A drag car would be different as its timing comes all in fast 
This is one of the biggest benefits of an EFI system with a crank trigger.

You program in a VE curve  Fuel and Timing curve.

When I took the EFI university course, they had a 400 hp car on a dyno holding a static load.
When the adjusted a/f, there was a lot of adjustment available before power fell off
A degree or 2 of timing made a huge decrease in power.

Timing made the most difference in power output.

[suntech]

In my opinion there must be some misunderstandings about good efi systems, bad efi systems and carbs. On WOT it does not matter much what you have.......IF proparly tuned, even a carb will get you there. The timing curve is important to make power. But i think the "high end" systems are better in the way that you can make AF curves and timing curves pretty much how you want, has more features, and it has more variables that when tuned right gives you a USER FRIENDLY package, that fires up regardless of ambient or engine temperatures.......you can sit in a traffic jam for a week, and then drop the hammer, and it does´nt miss a beat......you know.....like a new car would do!! Plus they have quality hardware that works. There is a little power to find with a nice sequentional efi system, but i think the big thing is drivability.