Rebuilding my 440 for my #'s Matching build

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Hey guys, I'm looking for some input before I dive into my engine rebuild for my 68 Charger (http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,55034.0.html).

If you've followed my rebuild thread, my car was near completely original minus the carb, intake, steering wheel, 69 R/T stripe, electronic ignition, wheels, and the lovely shag carpet patch on the dash.  Everything else is numbers matching, including the engine, tranny, rearend, etc.

The engine has 110K miles on it.  I've been told it was rebuilt once in the past.  I didn't plan on rebuilding it this year due to money concerns but I landed a great long-term contract and that's no longer a concern.  I had planned to rebuild my SPARE 440 to the hilt and put the original motor on the shelf but looking at it now, I should just keep the whole thing together, and pic up another car later to go completely nuts with.

So, I've decided to have the local engine builders near my home town build the motor.  Their resume is superb as builders, I think every dirt track racer within 100 miles gets their engine done by these guys, including a couple Winston Cup Late Model champs.  They have everything I need to do the things I'm thinking about except for one, which they ship out to have done.

Ok, what I'm thinking is, first and foremost, should I go with a 440 Source 500 or 512 crank or recondition my stock crank.  I know that Ron (Firefighter) has sworn by the reliability of the 500 or 512.  I don't want to built something that raises my risk of wrecking the block dramatically.

I don't know what compression I should shoot for if I go with the 440 source kit.  The flat tops on the 500 kit are 10.6:1 and the dished are 8.6:1.  Is 10 too much to run 91-93 octane in?

I'm going to have the exhaust manifolds extrude honed.  That's what they need to have sent out to have done.  I'm doing this to maintain the #'s matching thing, keeping the original look, and yet allowing it to breath as good as possible.  To help on the exhaust front, I'm also going with 3" TTI exhaust with the X-Pipe.

I acquired a #'s matching intake so I plan to go back to that from the Edelbrock hi-rise that's on there now.  I may have that honed too, do you guys think it's worth it?

In any case, I'm planning on having the intake opened up, and porting and polishing the heads, installing hardened valve seats, etc.  I have a few questions on the heads though.  For example, will the honed manifolds and X-Piped exhaust breath well enough to have the ported heads be beneficial?  Also, what should I do in regards of valves, springs, and rockers?  The builder said at minimum he would replace the exhaust valves but look at everything else after it's apart.  I feel it's probably best to replace them all but I'm not against saving a little money if its possible.  

And then there's the cam... and I guess I should explain what I want from the motor before we get into that.

The number one requirement is that the engine remain sturdy.  (Ha, that's kind of funny considering my builders name is Sturdy Motors!   )  I want something that performs as strong as possible without fear of it blowing up, I want something that I can reliably drive too.  I don't know if 450-500 hp and 500+ ft/lbs is reasonable but I'd sure like it to be!  

I know that with more restrictive exhaust you have to use a cam with more duration, right?  So, I guess I'll just lay my questions out now that you understand what my thoughts are.  Here's what I really want to know:

Are the stroke kits as reliable as the stock crank, and if so should I go with 500 or 512?
Will a lot of head work pay off considering my exhaust plans?
What should I replace, and with what brands, in regards to the hardware on the heads?
And finally, what should I be looking for in regards to a cam in this situation (ie.  duration's, lift's and brand)?

Ok, well there you have it.  I thank you all for your help in advance.  Any information offered will be greatly appreciated!  

[Belgium R/T -68]

I have a 440source 500 strokerkit in mine and when it comes to the crankshaft I can only approve of the quality I have seen. I had mine checked
out in a lab since I work in enginemanufacturing and it was a very positive testresult.
The only negative aspect with there strokerkits is the availibility of pistonchoises. My block was a 0.040" overbore and the pistons included would have
given me 10.9 cr which we ( Thanks Ron ) thought would be to much for my needs so I went for Diamond pistons which ofcourse adds
some $$ to the project.

Per

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Thanks Per!    I guess I should also ask how my stock cooling system will handle everything once its done?  

[firefighter3931]

Hi Mark, have a look in the proven engine combo's section. HemiGeno just had his engine rebuilt and it made descent power for a stock stroke 440.  

Using factory manifolds on both the intake and exhaust side will limit power somewhat so there's no point going stroker unless you are willing to make concessions in those areas. Generally speaking ; engines with restrictive exhaust respond well to wide lobed cam profiles in the 112* LSA range. These cams tend to idle smoother while broadening out the powerband. The reduced overlap also helps with reversion which is a problem with factory ex manifolds. The right cam makes a huge difference and is critical in these types of builds.  


Ron

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Thanks a lot for your input Ron.  Always appreciated!!

So I guess I'll try to replicate his build as close as I can.  I'm not certain, but I'd hope I could squeeze out a little more considering I'm having the manifolds honed.  I'll call the manufacturer too, but do you think the best choice is Comp Cams, or would Crane or somebody be better?  I would ask my builder more of these questions but they specialize mostly in "bow tie" motors & may not know what's best for Mopars.

 

[firefighter3931]

Thanks a lot for your input Ron.  Always appreciated!!

So I guess I'll try to replicate his build as close as I can.  I'm not certain, but I'd hope I could squeeze out a little more considering I'm having the manifolds honed.  I'll call the manufacturer too, but do you think the best choice is Comp Cams, or would Crane or somebody be better?  I would ask my builder more of these questions but they specialize mostly in "bow tie" motors & may not know what's best for Mopars.

Mark, there's only so much you can do with the factory parts. The intake manifold is the big cork in the motor, unfortunately. 

Give Dwayne a call (802-951-1955) and have him spec you a cam for the combination. Dwayne does most of the head porting and custom grinds for the FAST (factory appearing stock tire) racers and is quite familiar with what needs to be done to make power. Those guys have to run factory intake & exhaust manifolds. He's done a lot of R&D and spent countless hours dynoing different combinations. He knows what works and what doesn't. 


Ron

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Thanks again Ron!  I called Dwayne today.  We had to have a bit of a philisophical conversation about the whole deal.  After talking to him, I'm going to do pretty much what I had planned during then beginning of it all, put the original 440 on the shelf and build my spair instead.  The only difference is I'm going to continue to use the stock exhaust manifolds.  More details to come when I have more time to write. 

[firefighter3931]

Good news Mark....you went to the right guy for a cam and build advice with manifold style exhaust. Dwayne will fix you right up ! 


Ron

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Well, I got the spare 440 to the engine builder tonight, well... last night I guess.

The 440 was from a 71 Monaco.   My dad had run it in a stock car a year or two when I was in elementary school.  After losing a radiator towards the end of the season he pulled the motor and had the car crushed.  The engine was inside a garage for the first few years and would still turn over but then mom needed more space in the garage and it was placed outside with a cover over it.  Well, eventually the cover was blown off and water got into it and seized it up.  I don't think the thing has turned over in 18 years.  After my dad died, we put it in my brother-in-laws pole barn for the time being and he took the plugs out and spayed some oil and anti-seize in it on occasion.  Not that it loosened up but it may have helped keep it from getting even worse.

When I picked it up from his place it was covered in soil and rats nests.  When I got it into the shop and started tearing it apart, it was SO rusted.  The valve covers had some holes in them, and the valley tin was completely trashed.  Everything ended up coming off okay though, but all I really removed was the intake and exhaust manifolds, the distributor (which did take some elbow grease), and some bracketry.

I left the heads on, they will remove them for me.  I am contemplating whether or not I should clean them up and crack check them.  Are '71 heads worth anything on the market?     Should I keep the crank for someone as well?  I'm sure I should find out if it's steal or cast first.

While sitting next to the '68 440, I realized that the exhaust manifolds on it are designed FAR better for performance so between that and being right for the car I'm transferring them over to the '71.

When I got to the builder with the block, they weren't really worried about its appearance.  They said they've seen much worse.  They expect to take it over .060 anyway, just so they can blueprint the block.  I'm not opposed as long as there aren't major wall thickness issues but there shouldn't be.  I can't imagine the rust would penetrate that deep either.

The builder kind of pushed me to get it in before I head back to work again.  They said they'd like to get started before their "busy season".  I took pictures of the block when I dropped it off but I should have taken a picture of the number of engines in this place.  They were putting one on the dyno with five in que, in the next room there must have been 40 engines either finished or in process.  These were Wissota and Winston Cup Modified and Late Model engines, sprint car engines, you name it!  There was probably more money in that room than I'll make in a lifetime.

These guys did build a 572 Hemi for a guy just this summer and it pushed out amazing horsepower.  My body man knows the owner of that motor and he's really happy with it so that was nice to hear considering these are mostly Chevys and Fords running through their mill.

I'll post the pics of the rusty block when I get a chance, and I'll post updates on it's progress as I learn more.  Please offer your thoughts on my questions about the heads and crank if you have any.

[no318]

71 should be a steal crank.  Worth keeping/selling the crank (and dampner together) if it isn't junk.

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Well Ron, I talked to Dwayne some more last week.  He was a wealth of knowledge.  I had him grind a cam for me, and I bought the lifters and rockers from him as well.  In two weeks I'm going to be buying the 512 stroke kit from 440 Source and their aluminum heads as well, because of my desire to keep the original look.  I know how much he likes 440 Source  but they are the only ones that really look like the stock heads and are in my price range.

He suggested a 2800-3000 stall and the Street Dominator intake.  Think I should use a carb spacer to or will that not have much effect on my build?  I never talked to him about ignition though.  When I bought the car someone had already swapped the points distributor with an electronic one.  Is it ok to stick with the one I have or will there be a dramatic difference if I bought a new one?

I was also wondering about how the 440 Source kit will affect me in regards to balancing.  Because they're internally balanced, what changes must I consider, as in harmonic balancer, flex plate, etc.

I talked to my builder and they said the block looked great so they are just waiting for parts.  I should have everything to them by the end of the month.  I'd love for it to end up at about 500 hp and 550+ torque.  We shall soon find out! 

[firefighter3931]

Hey Mark, you won't have any problem hitting your hp/tq target with those parts. 

The stock electronic distributor is fine. Street Dominator is a good choice with a 1/2in open spacer to keep the carb cooler and avoid potential vapor lock. Summit carries a nice harmonic balancer for the steel crank type build that won't break the bank. The Mopar SFI flexplate is cheap & durable. Depending on the cam choice an 11in converter from either Turbo Action or Dynamic will fit the bill.

Look at Mike's (MFR426) build in the proven combo forum....it's very similar to what you're contemplating.



Ron

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Thanks for the additional advise Ron!  You're the bestest!   

I'll be rounding up everything you recommended over the next two weeks and get it all on order.  I'll let you know how things go.   

Mark

[firefighter3931]

Excellent Mark 

Keep us up to speed on your progress   



Ron

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Ron, can you tell me why the Turbo Action 17801 S-800 Series Converter is good for 440's but not 440 6-packs?  I'm ignorant.  I can't understand what the difference would be for hemi's & Max Wedge as compaired to the generic 440.  I just want to make sure it has nothing to do with expected HP/TQ.

Anyway, I'm putting my parts list together for next week and trying to get everything nailed down early.  Thanks for your help!

Mark

[firefighter3931]

Ron, can you tell me why the Turbo Action 17801 S-800 Series Converter is good for 440's but not 440 6-packs?  I'm ignorant.  I can't understand what the difference would be for hemi's & Max Wedge as compaired to the generic 440.  I just want to make sure it has nothing to do with expected HP/TQ.

Anyway, I'm putting my parts list together for next week and trying to get everything nailed down early.  Thanks for your help!

Mark

Mark,

For your stroker i would suggest the 17501 instead of the 17801. It is a horsepower/torque thing and the 501 will have stronger internals. Check with Paul at Turbo Action for his recommendation but i'm thinking that with close to 600ftlbs of torque & 3000 stall the 501 is the way to go. 


Ron

[maxwellwedge]

Do you really have to go .060 ? I hate anything over .030 - don't care how thick they tell me the block is.

[BLUE68RT4ME]

I'm not concerned with the extra .030.  Really, they're only going .055 over but that's just splitting hairs, sorry.

Anyway, I'm about to purchase everything else tomorrow.  I have gotten a quote from 440 Source and I list of things from Summit.  I will write them all down here later but I have one more question before I order... What are your thoughts on oil pumps?  Do I need anything above and beyond a stock pump?  If so, what should I be looking for?  And should I worry about 5 quart pans being too small?

Anyway, just trying to finish my homework before I turn in my paperwork.     I look forward to seeing what everyone has to say. 

[firefighter3931]

I'm not concerned with the extra .030.  Really, they're only going .055 over but that's just splitting hairs, sorry.

Anyway, I'm about to purchase everything else tomorrow.  I have gotten a quote from 440 Source and I list of things from Summit.  I will write them all down here later but I have one more question before I order... What are your thoughts on oil pumps?  Do I need anything above and beyond a stock pump?  If so, what should I be looking for?  And should I worry about 5 quart pans being too small?

Anyway, just trying to finish my homework before I turn in my paperwork.     I look forward to seeing what everyone has to say. 

Use the hemi replacement pan and a HV oilpump. Set the bearing clearances to .0025 and you're good to go. 

Mancini sells the pan and matching pickup for ~$160 and don't forget the windage tray. 

The nice thing about those Hemi pans is the 7 qt capacity (with filter) and it won't hang below your k-frame.



Ron

[71runner]

can you run a 1/2inch pick up with the 512 kit or dose it need to be 3/8ths for clearance?

[BLUE68RT4ME]

I think 440Source has them in 1/2" too but unless you're running a hemi block, ir a custom block, you would have to drill out the block and re-tap the threads & I believe that's quite dangerous.  Ron can correct me if I'm wrong.  Is yours already drilled out?

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Well, I've been quite scarce lately.  I'm still working out of town and I was waiting for the machine shop to coordinate a date that I could be there for the dyno.  Well, I'm going back for vacation this weekend, and on Friday the 18th we're going to put this thing on the dyno.  I'll try to post all of the parts I put into it along with the dyno results once it's complete.  The shop's goal is to hit 525 hp and 600+ tq.  We'll see soon enough. 

[tricky lugnuts]

Good luck, man! 

[GPULLER]

Cool Mark...be waiting on the power numbers.  Hows the body coming along?

Reed

[BSB67]

Sounds like your building something like this:

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Sounds like your building something like this:

Yes, almost exactly like that!  lol!  I'll have a different intake and HP exhaust manifolds but yeah, like yours.  How did you fare going through those exhaust manifolds?  Are those the aluminum heads or cast?  Thanks for the post!

Mark

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Cool Mark...be waiting on the power numbers.  Hows the body coming along?

Reed

Man, the body has been at a stand-still for a while but Aaron promised to get a significant amount done while I'm on vacation in Canada.  I hope to see a great improvement when I get back!

How's the Flat Back?   

[General_01]

Sounds like everything is coming along nicely Mark. Who did you use to build the motor? I used Wheeler.

[BSB67]

Sounds like your building something like this:

Yes, almost exactly like that!  lol!  I'll have a different intake and HP exhaust manifolds but yeah, like yours.  How did you fare going through those exhaust manifolds?  Are those the aluminum heads or cast?  Thanks for the post!

Mark

I thought that I read you we're using the SD intake.  I think that the right side manifolds are the same except maybe the clocking of the head pipe flange.  The 67 left side is different than the rest but similar.  Aluminum.  The performance is in the sig and more on the web site

[GPULLER]

Cool Mark...be waiting on the power numbers.  Hows the body coming along?

Reed

Man, the body has been at a stand-still for a while but Aaron promised to get a significant amount done while I'm on vacation in Canada.  I hope to see a great improvement when I get back!

How's the Flat Back?   

Thats good progress will be made on the body cause as soon as you get your powerplant done you'll wanna be driving it!

The '66 is fine, not much new to report, waiting for some wheels from Stockton, should be here by the end of next week.  Then its getting new shoes, will still have body colored steel cop wheels.  Just getting 15x10's for the rear.

Sounds like your building something like this:

Yes, almost exactly like that!  lol!  I'll have a different intake and HP exhaust manifolds but yeah, like yours.  How did you fare going through those exhaust manifolds?  Are those the aluminum heads or cast?  Thanks for the post!

Mark

I thought that I read you we're using the SD intake.  I think that the right side manifolds are the same except maybe the clocking of the head pipe flange.  The 67 left side is different than the rest but similar.  Aluminum.  The performance is in the sig and more on the web site

By your qtr mile time and weight your making around 530hp at the flywheel.  I could live with that. 

[firefighter3931]

By your qtr mile time and weight your making around 530hp at the flywheel.  I could live with that. 

The Moroso speed calculator is showing 560hp to run 120mph at 4150 raceweight. 



Ron

[GPULLER]

By your qtr mile time and weight your making around 530hp at the flywheel.  I could live with that. 

The Moroso speed calculator is showing 560hp to run 120mph at 4150 raceweight. 



Ron

The calculator I used was on dragtimes.com   
Still not shabby at 530!

[BSB67]

Thanks guys.  I usually stay away from talking hp numbers just for this reason, although the Moroso Speed Calc does level the playing field once you have the weight and mph, making it a pretty good tool for relative actual hp comparisons.  However, because it gives an actual hp (i.e. not corrected) you still need to acquire the weather data or DA for the run to make corrected hp comparisions.   The DA on that run was 1740.

Here are a couple of pic and some info:

http://508charger.yolasite.com/

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Well, things were running late at the shop and I had to run 30 miles to get a new magnetic pick-up for the distributor but we squeezed one pull in before the day was over.  They assembled it with their own carb and some 1-5/8" headers that they had laying around because they didn't have a flange and tube for my manifolds.  They are having a pair built today.  Anyway, the time we had left before close allowed enough time to get it started, warm it up, check the timing and take a pull just the way it was.  It showed the carb showed up quite rich but they were going to put mine on and jet it once the cam was broke in and everything was seated.  It pulled 518 HP @ 5200 and 614 TQ @ 4000.  I'm hoping I don't lose much going from those small headers to my manifolds but I should know more today.  All-in-all I'm very happy with what I saw.  We'll wait to see what the manifolds bring!  

[GPULLER]

Sweet numbers...you going to get to know your tire dealer on a first name basis! 

[BSB67]

Very nice.  Sounds like your having a good time, with more to come.  Keep us posted.   

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Well, final numbers are in.  They gave me the numbers they made with both headers and the manifolds.  I expected the torque to drop less than the HP going from headers to manifolds but

that shows how much I know about cams! LOL. Exactly the opposite was true.  Here you go:


Headers:
525 HP @ 4800
629 TQ @ 4300

Manifolds:
521 HP @ 5300
575 TQ @ 4200

This includes the 512 crank, the compression got higher than expected (10.9:1) because of minor decking of the block and heads.  There was no port work done though.  I was told the pistons ended up .010 under deck.

I plan to run the manifolds like I said from the start.  I also plan to run TTI's 3" exhaust w/X-pipe, unless I hear that it's overkill for this application.

I'll try to list all my components later this weekend.
   

[firefighter3931]

Congrats Mark, that's excellent power with the stock manifolds ! 

I'm sure the car will be a blast to drive. 

If you can, post up the dyno sheet when you list the other components in the buildup and we'll archive it to the Proven engine builds forum. 



Ron

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Will do!  I'm back in SC now but will be back to pick everything up in 1 to 3 weeks.  If I can't get it scanned before then I'll get it then. 

[BSB67]

Those are very nice numbers!  Congrats!

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Ok, here are all the details I have on my build, starting with the dyno results.  The first sheet is the results with the manifolds on, the second with a pair of headers that the shop had to use until they had pipes made to fit my stock manifolds.

[BLUE68RT4ME]

My cam was purchased from Porter Racing Heads, custom ground because of the manifolds.  Porter also supplied the lifters, rockers, and all the rocker accessories.  I also had him nitride the cam for fear of wear purposes.  I can't find the receipt at the moment, but it was about $900 and I think we used the Comp Cam rockers if I'm not mistaken.  If I can't find the info, call him.  He swears by them.  Here is what I did find from Mr. Porter...

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Here is my purchase from 440 Source...

[BLUE68RT4ME]

Here's my purchase from Summit...

[BLUE68RT4ME]

My machine shop bill was about $2200 for cooking the block and testing it for cracks, boring and decking the block and heads, line honing everything, final balancing, assembly, tuning, dyno, and having exhaust tubes made to run the manifolds on their dyno, as well as any parts I may have overlooked which all I can think of at the moment is cam bearings.

[firefighter3931]

Mark, thanks for posting the dyno sheets 

As you can see the headers help it hold on up top a little better than with the HP manifolds, but not by that much. Dwayne did a great job with that custom cam, inmo 

I'm sure this motor is going to be a handful on the street....be prepared. 



Ron

[375instroke]

What are those cam specs?

[BLUE68RT4ME]

I haven't physically seen all my documentation on the cam.  All of that is back in South Dakota and I had the stuff I just posted scanned and emailed to me.  I am not sure if that is the raw cam that Dwayne started with or what.  It was custom ground by him.  In fairness, he makes his living doing that stuff and he's an expert at it, as you can see by my numbers, so me advertising his specs wouldn't do him any favors.  I think he said they were included in my paperwork but I haven't seen all of it yet.  Anyway, I had no problem buying it from him.  He spent a few hours on the phone with me talking builds and different scenarios with no promise for a sale.  He helped me so much I was happy to buy it from him.  Actually, he probably saved me a ton of money because I almost purchased some parts that are almost certain to be a problem as long as you have them in your motor.  His, and Ron's, help was invaluable!