Are you following this climatologist email scandal?

[defiance]

No, you misunderstood me entirely.  I'm saying that you can find SOME situation or SOME nitpick BS to argue about with ANYTHING in science, and yet you're sitting at home, not floating into space, right now.  All you people whining about "scientists getting it wrong" are typing this on machines that make billions of calculations per second, sending data back and forth to each other a mind-bogglingly ridiculous speeds, over a network that basically covers the entire globe, using a series of little boxes floating for nearly indefinite periods miles above the atmosphere ----- an entire set of events built by scientists, using ENTIRELY flawed theories. 

I think maybe they're not as stupid as you want to believe.

So, you do realize that
a) isaac newton was wrong entirely about the mechanics of gravity,
b) Einstien got a whole lot closer, and his equations match reality much better, but
c) even einstein's theories about gravity don't hold up at a subatomic level, and
d) any physicist will tell you there is no functional theory right now that truly explains gravity and works in all circumstances.

Basically you're saying something I've been saying since the start here and that is that all the scientists in all the history of mankind (including Einstein) can still not fully explain pretty much anything about the way the natural world works. So here they are making more assumptions that spell doom and gloom for humanity if we don't act now. If they can't explain gravity, and a whole laundry list of other basic presuppositions, how is it we are going to die if we don't follow them down this rabbit hole? In a nutshell, they don't know what they're talking about. And I'm not saying that because I know, I'm saying that because it's the way they act. They can crunch numbers, take samples, put together models, make their assumptions and then suddenly something comes along that demonstrates that they just plain don't know what the hell they're talking about. It's comical really.

So yeah, I can play this game - I pick a bunch of crap to nitpick, then state, "Hey! Gravity is therefore just a theory, and one with KNOWN flaws, yet these crazy scientists keep trying to shove it down our throats anyway!  Bastards just trying to suck more research funds out of us!"

You could say that but then no one is trying to claim that humans are causing damage to gravity and must therefore cease and desist their harmful activities. You'd get laughed out of the room just like these clowns at the UN summit should be (and are by many if not most people). BTW, you're placing the "nitpicker" label on the wrong people. The nitpickers are the people wringing their hands in fear of global warming and trying to pass sweeping legislation based on half-baked, wholly nonsensical theories; theories you've demonstrated they do not and cannot understand yet loudly espouse with rabid fervor.

[bull]

Nobody said they were stupid. Well educated, agenda-driven and misguided maybe but not stupid. The fact remains, as you pointed out, that these people can be as smart at Einstein and still not be able to understand (let alone) explain things. So all I'm saying is when these smart people tell us we have to act now or die I tend to be very skeptical. And for good reason IMO.

The scientists in the alternative camp have just as much education and research to back their claims but don't have the backing from the alarmists. The "act now or die" alarmists will always sway some people with their "better safe than sorry" message no matter what the price tag. The bigger the potential calamity the more you can scare/tax the public and the more cash the GW scientists get to research it from the money/power-grabbing politicians. As usual, follow the money.

[Tilar]

All you people whining about "scientists getting it wrong" are typing this on machines that make billions of calculations per second, sending data back and forth to each other a mind-bogglingly ridiculous speeds, over a network that basically covers the entire globe, using a series of little boxes floating for nearly indefinite periods miles above the atmosphere -----

But yet it is only as good as the programmer or builder with the lowest IQ. It's just like everything you buy, It's put together with parts bought from the lowest bidder.

By the way, How did gravity get involved with climate change and trying to blame it on humans? I guess I missed that part.

[Mike DC]

  
I wish they wouldn't research anti-gravity stuff.


If the scientific community ever finds a way to turn off gravity, then the govt will probably start taxing us to keep it.  

 
 
     

[RECHRGD]

By the way, How did gravity get involved with climate change and trying to blame it on humans? I guess I missed that part.

I think we came to the conclusion that the Earth sucks, therefore holding the human race on it's surface.  The object is now to make the Earth blow.  Once that is accomplished, all the humans will be floating around in, and screwing up, space and the Earth's climate will forever remain stable.  At least I think that's where we are now.  Bob

[mauve66]

i still want to know how the climate history that was known in the 70-80's changed so much by the 90's that the whole concept changed from "the next ice age" to "global warming" to "climate change"


USING ALL THE SAME DATA

[RECHRGD]

i still want to know how the climate history that was known in the 70-80's changed so much by the 90's that the whole concept changed from "the next ice age" to "global warming" to "climate change"

Better computers?  Garbage in - Garbage out!    Believe Brother, Believe.

[mauve66]

i still want to know how the climate history that was known in the 70-80's changed so much by the 90's that the whole concept changed from "the next ice age" to "global warming" to "climate change"

Better computers?  Garbage in - Garbage out!    Believe Brother, Believe.

so if we do nothing and wiat 20 years , those "new computers" will tell us that the earth makes its own oil, we don't have to worry about running out and a 700 inch Hemi will work in a daily driver   i'm gonna wait for a better computer

[RECHRGD]

Better computers?  Garbage in - Garbage out!    Believe Brother, Believe.

so if we do nothing and wiat 20 years , those "new computers" will tell us that the earth makes its own oil, we don't have to worry about running out and a 700 inch Hemi will work in a daily driver   i'm gonna wait for a better computer

Now your catching on!!   Go forward and sin no more.  Bob

[John_Kunkel]

edit:  but.. man-made global warming and climate change is a theory, because it still has yet to be proven.

The existence of a diety is also an unproven theory but, according to most sources, ninety some odd percent of the population believe in some form of deity. What does that say about belief in theories and patterning one's life after such theories?

[squeakfinder]

All you people whining about "scientists getting it wrong" are typing this on machines that make billions of calculations per second, sending data back and forth to each other a mind-bogglingly ridiculous speeds, over a network that basically covers the entire globe, using a series of little boxes floating for nearly indefinite periods miles above the atmosphere -----

But yet it is only as good as the programmer or builder with the lowest IQ. It's just like everything you buy, It's put together with parts bought from the lowest bidder.

By the way, How did gravity get involved with climate change and trying to blame it on humans? I guess I missed that part.

It started with a quote from Al Gore. He stated Global Warming, I mean "Climate Change" is happening. Like it's a solid fact such as gravity. Then, somebody else used it as diversion tactic to try make the naysayers look stupid. But, I don't think it worked.

[John_Kunkel]

I do.

[squeakfinder]

 So you agree it was a diversion.  

[bull]

edit:  but.. man-made global warming and climate change is a theory, because it still has yet to be proven.

The existence of a diety is also an unproven theory but, according to most sources, ninety some odd percent of the population believe in some form of deity. What does that say about belief in theories and patterning one's life after such theories?

It says that the belief in global warming requires as much or more faith as it does to believe in a Deity; hence the dimented members of the green crowd have gleefully adopted the infamous zealotry tactics the marginal religious radicals like to use.

[0X01B8]

edit:  but.. man-made global warming and climate change is a theory, because it still has yet to be proven.

The existence of a diety is also an unproven theory but, according to most sources, ninety some odd percent of the population believe in some form of deity. What does that say about belief in theories and patterning one's life after such theories?

The Aztecs sacrificed people all the time to please their various deities, and apparently, to make sure the Sun came up every morning.  It wasn't that long ago.   Somebody like Defiance (cool '72 BTW,) with his defense of science, and his strange unprovable theories, would have been burned alive, or stoned, or killed in some awful way until very recently in history.  Only a few hundred years or so.  Dogma has held back human progress for way too long.  No?

[RD]

um.. okay.. anywho...  I wont go down the deity rebuttal as it is in violation of forum rules to discuss such topics.

The reference that the conglomerate of non-manmade GW / Climate Change believers will hold back defiance and human progress is farfetched and teeters on melodrama if you ask me.

The fact that the proponents of the theory to manmade GW / Climate change find it necessary to group those, that do not, into a circle of people who want to call every scientist stupid, promote the dark ages of society and wish the renaissance period never existed is preposterous, and imho, a vain attempt to make us look ignorant. It is just a futile attempt to garner more support by viewing themselves the victim to some huge and glorious subterfuge against science and all the glorious accomplishments it has provided ALL of us.

The fact of this initial argument is this:

THERE IS NO PROOF TO MAN-MADE GLOBAL WARMING OR CLIMATE CHANGE.  THOSE OF YOU THAT BELIEVE IN IT AND ARE ON THIS FORUM HAVE NOT PROVIDED IT.  THE SCIENTISTS YOU TRUST TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING HAVE NOT PROVIDED IT, BUT INSTEAD SOME OF THEM (THE MAJOR PLAYERS) HAVE LIED ABOUT THEIR SUPPOSED PROOF. AND WE ALL NOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S AND KEY INDIVIDUALS ARE GOING TO MAKE BILLIONS OFF OF IT.

Benjamin Franklin said it best: "A learned blockhead is a greater blockhead than an ignorant one."

[bull]

edit:  but.. man-made global warming and climate change is a theory, because it still has yet to be proven.

The existence of a diety is also an unproven theory but, according to most sources, ninety some odd percent of the population believe in some form of deity. What does that say about belief in theories and patterning one's life after such theories?

The Aztecs sacrificed people all the time to please their various deities, and apparently, to make sure the Sun came up every morning.  It wasn't that long ago.   Somebody like Defiance (cool '72 BTW,) with his defense of science, and his strange unprovable theories, would have been burned alive, or stoned, or killed in some awful way until very recently in history.  Only a few hundred years or so.  Dogma has held back human progress for way too long.  No?

Right. So now if you're a scientist and you don't agree with the eco-troopers' dogma they sacrifice your career, your livelihood, your reputation and your right to freedom of speech. You either shut up or they try to shut you down. Like I said, zealotry.

[defiance]

Ok, so let me attempt to recap this whole argument:

side a - Haha!  This single group of scientists screwed up their data!  this proves GW is a lie!

side b - well, not really. They did screw up, but there's lots of other work that supports GW too.  Still, this does weaken the case a bit, and We agree it isn't proven, so lets do some more research now.

side a - Haha!  GW is a lie and you're just mad that your side lost!

side b - No, We're just pointing out that GW is still a very well supported theory even if you completely exclude this work. (cites examples of undisputed facts that support the plausibility of GW in an effort to justify continuing research)

Side a - No way, man, that info is all wrong cuz volcanoes!  And it's just a theory anyway!  Plus al gore said it was the same as gravity, that proves your side is wrong.

side b - Whether it is a theory doesn't relate to its validity; explains how theory works in relation to the scientific method; uses gravity as an example; agrees that Al gore is an idiot.

side a - See, now you're changing the subject!  You just tried to make us look stupid.  Besides, you haven't provided any proof of GW!




So here we are.  Side b (myself included) is arguing that GW should not be dismissed outright because one of many research teams working on it turned into shmucks.  Side a, as far as I can tell, just wants to pretend side b is arguing that GW is fact and argue with their made-up version of side b.  So by definition, this entire argument is stupid.  If you're so fanatically convinced of your cause that you can't agree that more research is needed, and that politicizing and polarizing the issue to this degree is bad for science, there's really not much point in discussing this further.  Anyone that fanatical will likely only be convinced by something on the level of the voice of God telling them they're wrong.

[Ghoste]

Well, as a member of "side a" my only comment to that would be; go ahead and research it all you want- JUST STOP LOBBYING THE DAMNED GOVERNMENT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND STOP TELLING THE MEDIA TO SPREAD THE WORD TO THE ENTIRE PLANET BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!
Serously Defiance, research is good.  If we want to understand anything we need to research all of it.  This particular example is waaaaaaaay too under-researched at this point to be drawing any conclusions.  Especially ones that are about to alter the entire fabric of our global society and economic order. 


As for the deity comments, that's why the following of a deity is called a religious faith, this is supposed to be about scientific fact.  If I'm now being asked to mix the two and adopt a scientific faith then doesn't that pretty much shake the whole scientific method to the core?

[defiance]

That's my point, this whole argument is stupid because everyone here is in basic agreement, but wants to agrue anyway! I'm certainly not advocating (much less lobbying!) the gvt to do something yet, and I don't know that anyone else in this thread is either.  Neither has anyone in this thread advised, advocated, or dicated that the media stir up panic.  In fact, the people doing so are contributing to the biggest issue I see: the current environment of polarization.  If you want to argue against those guys, go find them.  You're still arguing against points that nobody in the thread is making!  Which, again, is my point: we all need to calm down, accept the proof that IS there without looking for nitpicky BS holes to poke in it, accept what proof ISN'T there without looking for falsified BS to support it, and fill in the rest with real research. 

[John_Kunkel]

It says that the belief in global warming requires as much or more faith as it does to believe in a Deity; hence the dimented members of the green crowd have gleefully adopted the infamous zealotry tactics the marginal religious radicals like to use.

Nice turnaround but the belief that man has no effect on the climate is also a theory without proof.

[Tilar]

The way I see it, it is wasted money and energy that could be put to good use elsewhere. Nothing we as humans can do will ever stop climate change.  It's like trying to change the timing of the tide and we as humans are arrogant if we think we can change it.

[defiance]

While the current theory of global warming based on CO2 emissions needs further research, we most certainly are capable of changing the climate of earth, as I went in depth on earlier in the thread. 

[bull]

It says that the belief in global warming requires as much or more faith as it does to believe in a Deity; hence the dimented members of the green crowd have gleefully adopted the infamous zealotry tactics the marginal religious radicals like to use.

Nice turnaround but the belief that man has no effect on the climate is also a theory without proof.

That's fine but the "no effect theory without proof" doesn't cost us billions of dollars like the "human-caused global warming theory without proof" does. I actually think spending $800 billion on a domestic rubber ducky factory would be a better use of money.

[defiance]

No, that's not true.  The costs are tremendous if you're wrong EITHER WAY.  

Funny thing here, I hear so many complaining about people supporting GW without enough evidence, while they continue to rant in support of the opposing position, which has absolutely no evidence.  So, where's YOUR neutrality?

Yes, I know there are a few here that believe it's false, but would be open to proof - but there are quite a number utterly convinced beyond reason, and in spite of evidence against their position. (for example, "the idea that man can impact the climate is arrogance")