Are you following this climatologist email scandal?

[Ghoste]

Another version goes like this; DuPont holds the patent on R12 and the patent is about to run out.  Coincidentally, it is discovered that R12 is destroying the ozone so it must be banned.  Lobby groups work day and night to successfully get it banned.  Curiously a main source of funding for these lobby groups is DuPont.  Luckily before all of this goes down a new prodcut is invented to replace R12.  Who holds tha patent on the new product-DuPont.

But that is a conspiracy theory and I have never heard any proof on the story.

[Steve P.]

Let's NOT get into the whole LOBBYIST thing.. It makes me want to 

[bull]

Another version goes like this; DuPont holds the patent on R12 and the patent is about to run out.  Coincidentally, it is discovered that R12 is destroying the ozone so it must be banned.  Lobby groups work day and night to successfully get it banned.  Curiously a main source of funding for these lobby groups is DuPont.  Luckily before all of this goes down a new prodcut is invented to replace R12.  Who holds the patent on the new product-DuPont.

But that is a conspiracy theory and I have never heard any proof on the story.

Yea, that's how it went. Now you know why I have to put all these caveats and disclaimers in my posts.

Next enviro-tangent: the reintroduction of wolves into the lower 48.

[my73charger]

I am and will remain a skeptic of man made global warming.  Here is something interesting to read today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6762640/Copenhagen-climate-summit-global-warming-caused-by-suns-radiation.html

[bull]

I am and will remain a skeptic of man made global warming.  Here is something interesting to read today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6762640/Copenhagen-climate-summit-global-warming-caused-by-suns-radiation.html

Well, IMO it's boils down to this: A few agenda-driven politicians and scientists fudged some numbers to create a graph that shows the global average temp has risen 7/10ths of one degree over the past century. BFD, even if the date were real.

[my73charger]

I am and will remain a skeptic of man made global warming.  Here is something interesting to read today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6762640/Copenhagen-climate-summit-global-warming-caused-by-suns-radiation.html

Well, IMO it's boils down to this: A few agenda-driven politicians and scientists fudged some numbers to create a graph that shows the global average temp has risen 7/10ths of one degree over the past century. BFD, even if the date were real.

I absolutely agree with you Bull.

[bull]

That's a great article you linked. Not that the "geniuses" at the UN summit will listen...

[mauve66]

Next enviro-tangent: the reintroduction of wolves into the lower 48.

oh boy, thats another pet-peeve of mine, stupid enviro/eco/conservationist/endangered species loons

where's the thread on that one???

Another version goes like this; DuPont holds the patent on R12 and the patent is about to run out.  Coincidentally, it is discovered that R12 is destroying the ozone so it must be banned.  Lobby groups work day and night to successfully get it banned.  Curiously a main source of funding for these lobby groups is DuPont.  Luckily before all of this goes down a new prodcut is invented to replace R12.  Who holds tha patent on the new product-DuPont.

But that is a conspiracy theory and I have never heard any proof on the story.

along the same lines as the billionaire who owns all the patents on the new solar energy devices is pushing solar energy in washington and they are all listening to him, not a conflict of interest there is there................

[0X01B8]

Another version goes like this; DuPont holds the patent on R12 and the patent is about to run out.  Coincidentally, it is discovered that R12 is destroying the ozone so it must be banned.  Lobby groups work day and night to successfully get it banned.  Curiously a main source of funding for these lobby groups is DuPont.  Luckily before all of this goes down a new prodcut is invented to replace R12.  Who holds tha patent on the new product-DuPont.

But that is a conspiracy theory and I have never heard any proof on the story.

http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/refrigerant_history.htm

[RD]

I am and will remain a skeptic of man made global warming.  Here is something interesting to read today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6762640/Copenhagen-climate-summit-global-warming-caused-by-suns-radiation.html

I liked all of this, naturally because it goes along with my beliefs.. no brainer there, except for this part

"There are people who know they are lying and do it simply for money and others who think they are doing good," he said. "But they not good scientists."

I believe in the "he who hath no sin, cast the first stone" approach here.  That claim they are not good scientists is over the top.  He has no right to judge anyone.

"As anybody knows who follows the opinion polls in Britain and Australia and the US, in the last few weeks and months there has been a rapid collapse in the global warming chimera so while we still have our freedom, let us speak out."

aint that the truth!

[mauve66]

that guy state that several vendors manufacture the freon but farther in his article it states that GM/Dupont started it and the others are making it "UNDER LICENSE", so somebody is getting paid to make it

In 1930, General Motors and Du Pont formed the Kinetic Chemical Company to produce Freon (a Du Pont trade name for CFCs) in large quantities. By 1935 Frigidaire and its competitors had sold 8 million new refrigerators in the United States using Freon-12 (CFC-12) made by the Kinetic Chemical Company and those companies that were licensed to manufacture this compound.

[RD]

good catch, the author earlier stated:

"Obviously those concepts are false. Along with DuPont, Atofina Chemicals (formerly Elf Atochem), Ineos Fluor (formerly ICI Klea) and Honeywell (formerly Allied Chemical and Allied-Signal) were all major vendors of R-12, and are today major suppliers of R-134a. The "other three" did not pay royalties to DuPont for their sales of R-12, and will not for R-134a."

when you get a license, a portion of the profits you make of the item is paid in royalties to the licensor correct?

[mauve66]

of course after the patent ran out in the 50's......................

wonder who created R134A, can't find it on the web anywhere....................

[RD]

back to the climate change crud.  here is a quote from Gore:

Gore said Wednesday that the scientific community has worked intensively on the issue for twenty years. "It's a principle in physics," he told Mitchell. "It's like gravity, it exists."

So now the theory has became a law just because Gore says so?

[Ghoste]

If he's proven wrong does he have to give back the Nobel Prize. 

[John_Kunkel]

Of course, the exact same can be said for those who support the theory (and other left wing subjects).

Forget the "wings" and read the first sentence of my reply...it's about pre-conceived notions and the futility of trying to change them. The second part refers to this forum in particular and the internet in general.

[John_Kunkel]

So now the theory has became a law just because Gore says so?

So you're saying the theory of gravity is also bogus? The naysayers are right....there is no such thing as gravity, the Earth sucks.

[RD]

So now the theory has became a law just because Gore says so?

So you're saying the theory of gravity is also bogus? The naysayers are right....there is no such think as gravity, the Earth sucks.

there is no theory of gravity, it exists and is proven a law thanks to Isaac Newton. http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newtongrav.html

and the earth does suck, it sucks you to the ground and keeps you there thanks to gravity

edit:  but.. man-made global warming and climate change is a theory, because it still has yet to be proven.

[Ghoste]

Of course, the exact same can be said for those who support the theory (and other left wing subjects).

Forget the "wings" and read the first sentence of my reply...it's about pre-conceived notions and the futility of trying to change them. The second part refers to this forum in particular and the internet in general.

Perhaps, but you still felt it was important to get the "wings" into your post.  Not to mention the little shot that those who support right wing subjects were the ones who have pre-conceived notions.  All of which pretty much supports my reply.

[Tilar]

If he's proven wrong does he have to give back the Nobel Prize. 

Of course not. You don't even have to do anything to get one, Just suggest something you think you'd like to do! (See latest recipient)

[defiance]

So now the theory has became a law just because Gore says so?

So you're saying the theory of gravity is also bogus? The naysayers are right....there is no such think as gravity, the Earth sucks.

there is no theory of gravity, it exists and is proven a law thanks to Isaac Newton. http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/newtongrav.html

and the earth does suck, it sucks you to the ground and keeps you there thanks to gravity

edit:  but.. man-made global warming and climate change is a theory, because it still has yet to be proven.

So, you do realize that
a) isaac newton was wrong entirely about the mechanics of gravity,
b) Einstien got a whole lot closer, and his equations match reality much better, but
c) even einstein's theories about gravity don't hold up at a subatomic level, and
d) any physicist will tell you there is no functional theory right now that truly explains gravity and works in all circumstances.


So yeah, I can play this game - I pick a bunch of crap to nitpick, then state, "Hey!  Gravity is therefore just a theory, and one with KNOWN flaws, yet these crazy scientists keep trying to shove it down our throats anyway!  Bastards just trying to suck more research funds out of us!"


The entire body of known science is theories - some we've tested thoroughly and others less so - but one of the principles of the scientific method is that you can't prove a theory works in all cirmcumstances, you can only fail to disprove it - and the more failed disprovals you have, the more confidence you have in the theory.  I'm done discussing global warming with you guys, but I can't help but respond to the gravity statements.

And yeah, you're talking about Gore, and he's probably the worst thing that ever happened to the scientific research into global warming.  But hey, he's arguing with Palin, so at least that serves as a reminder that it could be worse.

[Dans 68]

...But hey, he's arguing with Palin, so at least that serves as a reminder that it could be worse.

Hmm, methinks you are getting a wee bit defensive. Lets keep Politics out of this thread (or at least naming politicians). This thread would otherwise rapidly degenerate...and get  .   I've been enjoying the rejoinders so far. 

Dan

[bull]

So, you do realize that
a) isaac newton was wrong entirely about the mechanics of gravity,
b) Einstien got a whole lot closer, and his equations match reality much better, but
c) even einstein's theories about gravity don't hold up at a subatomic level, and
d) any physicist will tell you there is no functional theory right now that truly explains gravity and works in all circumstances.

Basically you're saying something I've been saying since the start here and that is that all the scientists in all the history of mankind (including Einstein) can still not fully explain pretty much anything about the way the natural world works. So here they are making more assumptions that spell doom and gloom for humanity if we don't act now. If they can't explain gravity, and a whole laundry list of other basic presuppositions, how is it we are going to die if we don't follow them down this rabbit hole? In a nutshell, they don't know what they're talking about. And I'm not saying that because I know, I'm saying that because it's the way they act. They can crunch numbers, take samples, put together models, make their assumptions and then suddenly something comes along that demonstrates that they just plain don't know what the hell they're talking about. It's comical really.

So yeah, I can play this game - I pick a bunch of crap to nitpick, then state, "Hey! Gravity is therefore just a theory, and one with KNOWN flaws, yet these crazy scientists keep trying to shove it down our throats anyway!  Bastards just trying to suck more research funds out of us!"

You could say that but then no one is trying to claim that humans are causing damage to gravity and must therefore cease and desist their harmful activities. You'd get laughed out of the room just like these clowns at the UN summit should be (and are by many if not most people). BTW, you're placing the "nitpicker" label on the wrong people. The nitpickers are the people wringing their hands in fear of global warming and trying to pass sweeping legislation based on half-baked, wholly nonsensical theories; theories you've demonstrated they do not and cannot understand yet loudly espouse with rabid fervor.

[RD]

So, you do realize that
a) isaac newton was wrong entirely about the mechanics of gravity,
b) Einstien got a whole lot closer, and his equations match reality much better, but
c) even einstein's theories about gravity don't hold up at a subatomic level, and
d) any physicist will tell you there is no functional theory right now that truly explains gravity and works in all circumstances.


So yeah, I can play this game - I pick a bunch of crap to nitpick, then state, "Hey!  Gravity is therefore just a theory, and one with KNOWN flaws, yet these crazy scientists keep trying to shove it down our throats anyway!  Bastards just trying to suck more research funds out of us!"


The entire body of known science is theories - some we've tested thoroughly and others less so - but one of the principles of the scientific method is that you can't prove a theory works in all cirmcumstances, you can only fail to disprove it - and the more failed disprovals you have, the more confidence you have in the theory.  I'm done discussing global warming with you guys, but I can't help but respond to the gravity statements.

And yeah, you're talking about Gore, and he's probably the worst thing that ever happened to the scientific research into global warming.  But hey, he's arguing with Palin, so at least that serves as a reminder that it could be worse.

I do not mind doing a debate with you, but it seems that you have taken this to a point of being malicious instead of constructive.  And, ty bull... you answered very eloquently.  I dont need to say anything else due to your response.

[my73charger]

Here is another interesting article:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/12/04/lawrence-solomon-dirty-climate-data.aspx#ixzz0ZDhC9Ciq

In my opinion, the Copenhagen rally and the treaty proposed are a clear attempt to rape the pockets of America as well as others.  These people want money and this is their platform to redistribute.