Xv level 2 alternatives and viper brakes?

[AcidHell2]

Any one know if any other companies are doing anything similar to the xv motorsport level 2 suspension. Also people were using viper callipers are people still making the adapters or are they relatively easy to machine. An i right in saying they were from the 1993 model.

[HPP]

No one is making an entire system on the level that XV has built the L2 system that is a direct bolt in deal. Closest thing to that is AlterKation. There also is Blue Zombie, Control Freaks, and CAP, but these are predominately variations on the AlterKation kit. If you want to move in to the realm of fabrication, then Alston, Max G and a few other makes set ups that could be adapted to a mopar with a significant amount of work.

Viper adapters are still out there. There are actually three kits; Kit 1- adapts 92-02 gen Viper Calipers to 11.75 rotors on drum brake spindles. Kit 2- adapts 92-02 Viper calipers to 13" rotors on disc spindles. Kit 3- adapts 02-09 Viper calipers to 13" rotors on disc spindles. All are made by ARE, but I can get the kits for you for less than anyone else if you want one. PM me for info.

[AcidHell2]

Thanks for that. It looks good and 2k cheaper than xv. How would the adapters work with such a kit or would you rec a different brake system?

[FJMG]

So what is the smallest rim you can run with 13" rotors.

[HPP]

The adapters simply holds the caliper, so different calipers require different adapters. Does that answer our question or am I missing it? Whether it is best for you depends on the application. Wilwood kits are decent street , autocross and drag kits, but tend to fade on road courses. The viper kit provides more clamping force and better feedback than the Wilwood system, but weighs a bit more. The stock stock is very reliable, just heavy and with limited pad choice. The limitations in pad choice with the stock , SSBC, or other offerings could be a factor in their selection depending on how you use your car. The broad selection of pads for Wilwood and Viper calipers make them better choices for some uses than others.

Smallest diameter rim you need for a 13" rotor is 17". The largest rotor you can run with a 15" rim is a 12.12" rotor. Wilwood offers a kit for that.

[NorwayCharger]

So what is the smallest rim you can run with 13" rotors.

I would say 18".

[HPP]

Here are some weights in pounds;

Spindles;
Disc FJM 6.2
Drum 6.6
Disc A 8.4
Fatman 10.3

Caliper adapters;
Stock 3.5
Viper 2.5
Wilwood 1


Calipers;
Stock 10#
Viper 8#
Wilwood 4#


Picture of the calipers for visual impact;

[AcidHell2]

The adapters simply holds the caliper, so different calipers require different adapters. Does that answer our question or am I missing it?

I was more asking about the fixings on the new front end. Do they come with original fixing points. Or are they new fixins and as such require diffrent adapters to hat of an original charger. If hat makes sense.

It is for both street, track racing and strip. So not overly bothered about weight. chargers are one heavy car anyway. I know trying to use one car for everything I'll never get a brilliant solution.

Thanks so much for the replies, just trying to get a feel of where I want to get to and how much each major part is going to be.

[HPP]

All of these kits bolt to the original spindles, which all mount to the original suspension. Perhaps the technical info on the kits from the manufacturer could provide you with better information. http://www.arengineering.com/caliper_menu/calipermenu.html

[Tom Q]

I am using the wilwood set up on an E body with the large mopar rotor.  The car sees plenty of action on the road course and it's fast. Based on my years {15+} of  running laps I think for most mopars the viper calipers are overkill and wayyy to much $$$$. I changed brake pad compounds after consulting with wilwood and all of my pad wear and fade issues have gone away.

As far as the level 2 stuff, that's great hardware but the price is over the top for most of us poor folks.. There are other less expensive ways to make whatever you are driving handle and stop well.  I would love to measure my p o s up against a level one or level 2 e body with similar weight [3250 w/out driver and about 400 rwhp hp under the hood] , or even the Hodgkiss Challenger so we all could learn what really works and what does not and for how much $$$$

[Mike DC]

   

I don't think the improvements that you get from the top-level stuff would be very easy to test. 



The cheaper stuff would probably do virtually as well on the skidpad or slalom as the high-end stuff, and people would see that result & say the hotter stuff is a ripoff.  But of course slaloms & skidpads are mostly a comparison of tires to weight (once the sway bars are all pretty stiff on everything). 

The value of the hottest stuff is gonna be the way it improves the car's predictability and "feel" near the limit, even if that same raw limit could be reached with some other cheaper way.  It's a difficult thing to measure with hard data.     

   

[BrianShaughnessy]

All of these kits bolt to the original spindles, which all mount to the original suspension. Perhaps the technical info on the kits from the manufacturer could provide you with better information. http://www.arengineering.com/caliper_menu/calipermenu.html

The "old" Vipers on 11.75"/13" rotor uses 73-76 A-body DRUM spindles.    I had to post a wanted ad on moparts to get some but they weren't too terribly expensive ($50 / pair)  at least for the spindles.    New Viper use A/E disk spindle.

The Viper calipers aren't as cheap as some made it out to be.   I had to pay $400ish.    Had to get some special bolts from the dealer and a few other hassles.       

[HPP]

Tom, it is great to hear that varying the pad compounds can yield good results with the Wilwood set up. I really want to go with their 12.12 set up for the light weight, high leverage aspect, but the possibility of fade has made me reluctant to drop the coin on it.

Suspension choices and the subsequent tuning is a somewhat new area for a large majority of owners who have concentrated mostly on engine mods and drag racing for several decades At times it can seem somewhat overwhelming. Yes, some, if not most, of these suspension and brake kits are overkill. I've always thought of it this way; careful selection of stock pieces combined with good specs can produce a car capable of cornering at the limit of the skills of 92% of the drivers out there and it can be done for less than a couple grand. To gain an additional 5% in capacity will cost a couple more grand, but the cars capability covers 98% of drivers. To get the next 1% requires a doubling in cash and to get the final 1% requires a tripling of cash. Are there many mopar enthusiasts out there who can fully utilize this capability, I doubt it. There may be a few, but most of them are not going to be found on a message board debating merits of the various systems.

In that regard, building suspension is not unlike building engines. Does everyone need a blown, injected aluminum Hemi on the street, no. Similarly, not everyone needs a full blown, XV level 2 kit in their street car. The fact that a large % of people buying/building those systems can't/won't be able to fully utilize them doesn't mean they are less impressive. That is the great thing about this hobby is that it is what each of us makes it.

So, can my $1500 suspended car run pace with $10k XV suspended car, sure, to a point. Even as highly as I like to hold my driving skills, I still am not good enough to fully utilize all the stock stuff beyond their capability, much less drive beyond the capabilities of an improved kit, and I've spent 20+ years building suspensions and competition cars. But, if someone wants to drop the coin on it, who am I to tell them they are wrong. We all have different point of views of value and worth and that will dictate how we spend money on our toys.

[FJMG]

Thanks for the pics HPP, I would have thought that the viper and the wilwood pads would be considerably larger than the stock pads? Obviously must be a difference in material and clamping force to get more stopping power?
Looks as though there is only a small margin of brake improvement if you stay with stock 15" steelies and to get more (looks like way more) you need to upgrade to 17" or larger which is a significant cost increase for just a street driven car (in my case).

[HPP]

Well, the biggest way to better braking is predominately a leverage issue. Just like a longer ratchet handle gives you more leverage to break loose a stubborn bolt, a larger diameter rotor provides greater braking leverage. The multi-piston calipers are primarily to better apply the available force and give better feedback to the driver.

It is for this reason that a 10.5 Wilwood kit may not necessary be a better stopping unit than the stock 10.87 rotors and certainly not as good as the 11.75 rotors. Yes, the aluminum hub assembly they use reduces weight, which is a good thing, but they are actually a step backwards in available leverage compared to stock. There is the 12.12 rotor offered by Wilwood, which is used extensively in Nascar applications and is the largest rotor you can fit in a 15" wheel. To get to sizes beyond that, yes, you need to step up in wheel diameter as well. You may notice that Wilwood actually recommends 16"+ wheels for their 12.19 kit

The "old" Vipers on 11.75"/13" rotor uses 73-76 A-body DRUM spindles.    I had to post a wanted ad on moparts to get some but they weren't too terribly expensive ($50 / pair)  at least for the spindles.    New Viper use A/E disk spindle.
The Viper calipers aren't as cheap as some made it out to be.   I had to pay $400ish.    Had to get some special bolts from the dealer and a few other hassles.       

Yes, I pointed out earlier that to use viper calipers with the 11.75 rotor require drum spindles. But you can also use the "old" Viper calipers on the 13" disc spindle kit as well. An alternative to the 73-76 a body drum spindles are to use the Dr Diff bearing adapter sleeve with some green loctite. At $50 for the kit, this may or may not be an economical alternative for some. Given that most people know what the request for a set of big bearing, A body drum spindles is for, I have seen some price gouging on them. I've been quoted up to $150 a pair for these on occasion, which is ridiculous, IMO.

Calipers also have a range in pricing. Most sets I've picked up have been $300 a pair, but I have scored them as low as $250 on occasion. Reseal kits are only $20 for rebuilds, which is nice. In any case, even at $400 for calipers, $180 for the adapters, $50 for spindles, and $80 for rotors, your kit is still only $710 which is $50 less than the cheapest Wilwood which actually offers less braking force with its 10.5 rotor. 

If you go the ARE Wilwood route, at $315 for calipers, $80 for pads, $180 for the brackets and $80 for rotors, your only at over $650, which is less than the Wilwood kit with more available force. Hard to beat that.

So like so many other things in life, it becomes a trade off of price, effort, and time for results. But I have to admit that seeing Viper calipers on a vintage muscle car is just plain cool, even if it did cost a few dollars more.

[BrianShaughnessy]

So like so many other things in life, it becomes a trade off of price, effort, and time for results. But I have to admit that seeing Viper calipers on a vintage muscle car is just plain cool, even if it did cost a few dollars more.

 

[Mike DC]

Brake guys, I'm just curious - is there much aftermarket parts availability gain to be had with jumping from 15" up to 16" rims these days? 

It seems like the brake industry builds most things to fit either 15-inchers, or else they only fit 17" and up.  I can't remember the last time I saw anything described as "requires a minimum of 16-inch rims." 

[HPP]

Wilwood offers their 12.19 kits, which they say requires 16" wheels.

http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKitListFront.aspx?make=Dodge&model=Charger&year=1969&frttype=Drum&reartype=Drum&modoption=Drum%20Brake%20Spindle

There are a few performance tires and a decent selection of racing tires in 16", but most stuff is geared towards 17"+ sizes these days.