Are car/parts values dropping significantly?

[myk]

I'm not sure I understand what everyone's frustrations are about.  I mean, we adore and covet these cars but they're just things, like any other thing that has a value and needs to be either bought or sold based on demand.  Cars, houses, boats, land, women-they're all property-things to be sought out and then obtained by people that have the resources to do so.  What, so we "car fans" think prices have been driven up by the world and they should be brought back down to our comfort levels?  Why?  The world doesn't "owe" car fans a friendly atmosphere where money isn't an issue just because we love these cars and "those other people" are just in it for the money.  I really don't see the problem here.  It is what it is.  If people can't keep up with the sky-high prices of these things then they either need to work harder, get a better job and make more money or just move on and accept the reality of their situation.  


No one owes us anything folks.  It's up to us to adapt to the environment and get what we can out of it, and live accordingly...

[6pkrunner]

The main driving reason for prices is demand (greed). Speculators get in and create artificial demand and reap massive profits while they can. They know full well that things can't last forever so make hay while the sun shines. Once the bubble bursts, they're gone. If cow exhaust was the next hot thing, they'd be on that in a second. The problem lies is when the speculators are gone there remains a mess to be sorted out by those that are in it for other than money.

[Ghoste]

Myk, I can't help but wonder if your outlook would change if you suddenly found yourself in a situation where you were forced to sell your "things" and then because of speculators couldn't get them back. I understand and support your position on the great capitalist ideal but sometimes it is a little more.
For me personally, this was a hobby always.  I'm keenly aware that I'll never buy running drivers for a couple hundred dollars again.  But to participate now means dealing with it as a business.  I already have business to attend and my Charger is supposed to be my relief from that. 
But I do understand your point.

[myk]

Funny that you mention that.  As it stands, I won't be able to hold on to at least 2 of my cars.  I love my cars more than life itself.  Nothing compares to getting behind the wheel of any one of them, turning the key and listening to them cough and rumble to life-christ I think it's better than sex.  I bought the Charger for $2000 in 1994 and it took me to college, my first job, my first date, my mom's funeral after she commit suicide but now I can't even afford to buy replacement parts for it.  But you know what?  That's LIFE.  I'm living in a fantasy world right now and the reality is that I can't afford to keep these things or any of the other toys that I love so much.  Do I want to see these boys go and have to drive a Honda?  Hell no, but again, that's life; the economy's bad, prices have gone up on EVERYTHING, and the fact of the matter is I either need to work harder to keep my current lifestyle or accept the reality of the crazy, greed driven market and adapt accordingly.  

Am I mad, yes.  Do I think the world is corrupt, greedy and partially responsible for my impending financial doom?  Yes.  But the sole responsibility for either beating or surviving my financial crash is ME and only ME-I don't expect handouts, bailouts (GM, Chrysler, banks, people on welfare) or any other kind of assistance or anyone's pity even.  Once again I either need to get 2, 3, 10 jobs to keep my lifestyle afloat or I need to start making hard decisions.  

I don't expect anyone to share my views, because I realize that we now live in an "entitlement" society, where people believe that the world either owes them things or should all ow them to have certain things without really working for it, but look at this example: if banks and lenders and the people that sought loans from them hadn't given in to this fantasy that anyone and everyone should be able to own a home we probably never would've experienced the crash in the real estate market that we did.  People just need to face reality-sometimes you can't get what you want and if that is unacceptable then it's up to us to make it happen, not for the world to accomodate us...

[Ghoste]

Well I don't think the world owes me anything but I'm not sure that was the point of any of us griping about the prices.  I think we all understand that they are what they are but accepting it as fact deosn't mean liking it.  Which is also what you have said.
I think we're all making the same observations here.

[myk]

True, and I probably griped about it as well, I just kept it to myself because...I didn't see any point in talking about it.

It isn't my intention to offend anyone, and I don't like seeing my hobby being perverted into a greed machine either but so goes the pitfall of the free world we live in.  At least we have a chance to own these things and have them in our lives, even if that chance keeps getting harder to reach or increasingly difficult to maintain.

Btw Ghoste is that avatar your car now?

[Ghoste]

No that's a still from Dirty Mary Crazy Larry.  I tend to change my avatar around and I'm probably due.

[Brock Samson]

Great to see you back MYK it's sure been a loong time...
Anyhow,.. I have stated it before and I'll go ahead and do it again,..
Muscle Cars have been hit harder then most other collectables in this now two year downturn, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of this,..
Where my charger had accrued an average of 8% appreciation per Yr. it has been off about an equal amount for the past two years,.. I suspect that at least thus far the July after the DOH movie was released a few yrs. back was the high water mark.
If you can wait it out fine, but now is not a good time to attempt to sell.
My experience with the R.R. showed me that.

[Cooter]

Well, most are the opposite Myk. I'm glad you can come to terms with things like "Collectors"/"Investers"/"Flippers"/ "Wrecks to riches"..

I will never come to terms with it however. I was Mopar when "The Money Makers" couldn't have cared less and we had more fun then. Now, like you mentioned, they are trying to turn MY hobby into a Fortune 500 Business to where they just freeze out the "Little guys" that started the whole damn thing...These "Investers" aren't the ones staying up till 2:00 AM in the morning block sanding that fender. They aren't the ones that have had to cry when they watched a BUDDIES Charger catch fire and burn to the ground. They have never had to "Pay their dues" so to speak. Without being a "Seasoned" Mopar Guy/Gal, they are only there as Ghost mentioned to rape and pilledge all the money they can while they can..Meanwhile, when they are gone, WE, the "REAL" Mopar people have to deal with the over inflated prices they brought into this...Charger parts just don't go down in price, but they do go up because of these types and I'll b*tch and fight about it till they leave....

[nakita7]

I'm with you Cooter!

[Ghoste]

I've noted before to people that it's somewhat ironic that when I was in high school and playing with cars, a huge group of nerdy kids spent all of their time studying.  After school they all got good jobs and looked down their noses at my friends and I (raise your hand if some stuffed shirt ever derisively referred to you as "greaseball" or "motorhead" or "grease monkey").  Then they bought those same cars we worked on to keep looking new.  I guess they have their revenge.

[AKcharger]

Well one more thing to consider about our cars and why I never expect our cars to "crash" is the target market and 3 generations of demand. Muscle cars have a unique niche no other car has ever had, consider:
1) First target demographic...baby boomers - Theres were the original owners who now in their 60's have the time and $$ to buy the car they had when they were raising a family, perhaps the best time in their lives!
2) Second target demographic...Gen X - Guys who were in high school in the 80's early 90's (that's me) when muscle cars we're $300-1000 in running conditon. we bought these cars in high school becuase they were cheap and were cool! Now we're pretty much at the peak of our income power curve and want a car like in high school
3) Third target demographic...Gen Y - This is perhaps the most interesting, look at the board and you'll see teens and 20 somthings also after our cars for no other reason then their cool. This is reinforced from every action/adventure movie that MUST has a vintage muscle car and  popular music videos as well.

Compare prices of any muscle car to say a pristine 40's or 50's sedan...no comparison 'cause no one wants or cares about thse in any numbers to effect cost.

[Belgium R/T -68]

I don't see how for example a Charger on long term can do anything but rise in value. It must be a simple question of availibility and demand?
I mean, every year worldwide a new group of people will get to the age of drivinglicence and would want a part of the chargerworld but there
will be no moore cars available then the amount produced.

Per

[Mike DC]

   
AKCharger nailed it.



IMHO the speculators aren't the real problem.  The reason that the speculators care in the first place is because WE keep so much demand up for these cars. 

The real problem is that 50 years of men are all trying to outbid each other for same 5 years worth of cars.

     

[Ghoste]

I would take exception to Ak's comparison of musclecars versus 40-50's sedans.  Compare 60 and 70's sedans to those cars and I think you'll find the 60's and 70's ones lag far behind.  Assuming of course that we are both defining sedan as a four door family car.
When you take the sportier version of some the 40's and 50's cars you'll find the situation differs alot.  Don't be too quick to cast a 1940's woodie sedan into the worthless pile either.
The American musclecars will join the ranks of the high dollar classics over time but the ones that will retain the value are going to be the obvious ones.  The Hemi cars, the Yenkos, the Boss 429 Mustang and that ilk.  They are the custom coachwork supercharged Duesenburgs of their era.
I also wouldn't assume that Hollywood will always feature musclecars either, the film production people of right now fall into those first two demographics and as they age and someone "hipper" takes the controls, they will feature the cars of their youth (think Rice).
I think demographic three is much much smaller than we think.  I think they are more inclined to appear in a misrepresented number on internet forums and car shows.  Compare them to the larger number of kids overall and I don't think they will sustain the feverish mania some of us enjoy.
Now that it looks like all I'm doing is trying to shoot holes in everything, I do believe the musclecar isn't going anywhere, I'm just saying that I think from popular interest point of view, it's at it's peak.  The interest levels will fall off and only the cream of the crop will do stellar in value.  I think they all will keep going up in value but not in some insane rocket ride fashion.

[Cooter]

'Ya know what kills ME? The fact that everybody talks about how much something is worth yet, when you go to sell, where are they then?
I can't go to a car show/cruise without at least ONE person saying "Damn, you know how much that car or this car is worth?" Yet, when I ask them "why don't YOU buy it then?" The answer remains the same....."I don't have any money"...Well, WTF are you talking bout prices for if you can't even play that game? It's like Mike said above..It Really IS 50 years of guys outbidding each other, but some have rigged the deck by being born with a silver spoon in their mouths and THESE are the ones that are driving prices up. The local drag strip WILL NOT let me run in the True Street class cause my cars "To quick"....WHY? Could it be that I'd be "Stacking the deck" in MY favor and dominate the class? I get bumped to Super Pro because of my time slip, same thing here...They don't build anything, they don't restore anything, they don't even buy to keep for more than a few months, they just are in it for greed. Meanwhile, the ones that are out working on, restoring, buying to pass down to their sons/daughters, are being forced out by a "Lucky few"....I sure will be glad when the "Well to do" croud finds the '69 Camaro's more valuable than That '67 Charger....I have older gentlemen coming up to me at car shows that ALWAYS make the same comment.."Damn, I had one of these and sold it..I sure wished I had that Charger back now..Look what it's worth today?" I simply reply "Is THAT the only reason you want it back and came over to look at MY Charger? Cause you wonder how much money you could sell your "Beloved" Charger for?" This to me is the real problem..Nobody wants the cars back cause they brought them things like Fun, they want them back to "Cash in" while the irons hot.....Sad, really sad...

[mauve66]

I don't expect anyone to share my views, because I realize that we now live in an "entitlement" society, where people believe that the world either owes them things or should all ow them to have certain things without really working for it, but look at this example: if banks and lenders and the people that sought loans from them hadn't given in to this fantasy that anyone and everyone should be able to own a home we probably never would've experienced the crash in the real estate market that we did.  People just need to face reality-sometimes you can't get what you want and if that is unacceptable then it's up to us to make it happen, not for the world to accomodate us...

my government tells me so so it must be true

[Back N Black]

'Ya know what kills ME? The fact that everybody talks about how much something is worth yet, when you go to sell, where are they then?
I can't go to a car show/cruise without at least ONE person saying "Damn, you know how much that car or this car is worth?" Yet, when I ask them "why don't YOU buy it then?" The answer remains the same....."I don't have any money"...Well, WTF are you talking bout prices for if you can't even play that game? It's like Mike said above..It Really IS 50 years of guys outbidding each other, but some have rigged the deck by being born with a silver spoon in their mouths and THESE are the ones that are driving prices up. The local drag strip WILL NOT let me run in the True Street class cause my cars "To quick"....WHY? Could it be that I'd be "Stacking the deck" in MY favor and dominate the class? I get bumped to Super Pro because of my time slip, same thing here...They don't build anything, they don't restore anything, they don't even buy to keep for more than a few months, they just are in it for greed. Meanwhile, the ones that are out working on, restoring, buying to pass down to their sons/daughters, are being forced out by a "Lucky few"....I sure will be glad when the "Well to do" croud finds the '69 Camaro's more valuable than That '67 Charger....I have older gentlemen coming up to me at car shows that ALWAYS make the same comment.."Damn, I had one of these and sold it..I sure wished I had that Charger back now..Look what it's worth today?" I simply reply "Is THAT the only reason you want it back and came over to look at MY Charger? Cause you wonder how much money you could sell your "Beloved" Charger for?" This to me is the real problem..Nobody wants the cars back cause they brought them things like Fun, they want them back to "Cash in" while the irons hot.....Sad, really sad...

If you don't the comments at the car shows, i say don't go. There are alot of people out there that say they are "Mopar Guys" but when it comes to giving a fellow Mopar friend a break on parts they are just as greedy as the high rollers you talk about.

[AKcharger]

If I talk to someone at a car show I start off by saying " i've never owned one of these nor have any family members or friends...and if I did it would have likely had a 318 and NOT have had a hemi"

[nakita7]

I have older gentlemen coming up to me at car shows that ALWAYS make the same comment.."Damn, I had one of these and sold it..I sure wished I had that Charger back now..Look what it's worth today?" I simply reply "Is THAT the only reason you want it back and came over to look at MY Charger? Cause you wonder how much money you could sell your "Beloved" Charger for?" This to me is the real problem..Nobody wants the cars back cause they brought them things like Fun, they want them back to "Cash in" while the irons hot.....Sad, really sad...

EXACTLY! Nobody wants them because they are cool cars, they were watching Barrett-Jackson with dollar signs in their eyes.

Out of the several Mopars I have owned over the last 25 years. It's not the 'big dollar' ones I miss the most. Maybe you don't believe that, but it's true anyway. It's not the 69 Charger RTSE or the R/T. Not the 4-speed Coronet R/T. Not the 70 Six-pack Cuda. One of my fav's was a 1971 Roadrunner, lime on black 383 4-speed car that I bought for $500. It had a bent frame, but it went like snot. Yes, I was young and stupid and I sold it, but it was a fav.

It is odd that guys wish they had certain cars back when they find out what it's worth, but before that they couldn't give a rip. Shows where their heart is at, what's down in the well comes up in the bucket...

[Brock Lee]

What I enjoy more are the diehard Mopar guys that bitch and moan about rich guys inflating prices, but then want to gouge you top dollar for swap meet parts they have hoarded.

[Cooter]

What I enjoy more are the diehard Mopar guys that bitch and moan about rich guys inflating prices, but then want to gouge you top dollar for swap meet parts they have hoarded.

You can't blame those guys, just because "Those Rich guys" have inflated the prices sh*t will bring....WTF would the die hard Mopar guys sell a part  for peanuts, when they turn around and it's sold it on Ebay for thousands....The "Rich guys" have set the bar higher than the "Diehard guys" that BEGAN this thing...The bottom line is this....I can bitch about this all I want, the Die hard guys as well as the rich guys, WILL SELL/BUY HIGHER than I can afford.....But that's not gonna stop me from letting them know I don't approve....I don't like Flippers that are in this for pure greed, but on the other hand, I can FULLLY understand someone selling parts/cars to fund a project as I've done it myself...

Lemme tell ya' about trying to "Help" out a fellow "Diehard Mopar Guy" with a 1970 Charger...I restored a 1970 Charger for a friend of mine that had owned this car for over 17 years. I DID the following:
1. RAndR BOTH rear quarters
2. RandR the Dutchman Panel
3. Rebuild the ENTIRE rear sail panel and rear window channels
4. Reapir and block sand huge dent that ran the length of the doors on both sides
5. Reapir and get working the rear quarter windows that hadn't worked since he owned it
6. Pull ALL Glass
7. Repair and block sand, install, '69 Fiberglass front fenders, only to pull off and repair/block sand two replacement '69 front fenders that were supposed to be rust free/dent free, but looked as if run over by tractor trailer when blasted.
8. Rebuild entire grille and get everything working
9. RandR both rear trunk Extentions
10. RandR trunk floor
11. Pull Fuel tank and replace.
12. RandR rear lower valance and rear corners.
13. Install front disc brake kit from A-Body
14. Rebuild entire 8 3/4 rear and set up Sure Grip 3.23 gear.
15. Convert 318/Auto to 440/4-speed
16. Pull trans out twice, once for incorrect flywheel installed and once for hairline crack to replace bellhousing
17. Build 440 engine
18. Owner hooked battery up backwards late one night, had to rewire dash assy.
19. Went back into dash assy. numerous times for Fuel guage problem
20. Install seat covers/door panels/carpet
21. Paint rear tail stripe on car as well as paint car twice
22. Buffed paint job
23. Brake booster went bad after disc install. RandR brake booster.
24. Wire MSD ingnition


ALL this for $1700.00 and the old cracked 11" Bellhousing, a set of jet hot coated headers, and the B-body console out of car....



Told me he swore he was gonna pass it down to his daughter and NEVER sell it if I helped him out...Owned this car for over 15 years and as soon as it looked good enough to sell BOOM! Now it resides in Germany......Needless to say, we don't speak anymore as I told him he was welcome for that new bass boat and roof on his house..

[john.v]

 
I also have those ""Friends "" that call me up only if they have a problem with there car, and if i can take a look at it for only "1 minute"
and when you need them there are nowhere to find.  

[AKcharger]

 I missed Carlisle for the past 2 years, anyone see any "car corral" prices?

[Ghoste]

I've noticed parts holding their own since this thread was up but car corral prices have down imo.