69 hemi 500 - 181 miles???

[Pistolpete]

Is this for real or even possible ??

**Link Removed**


sounds a little fishy that the engines been rebuilt and the paint has been redone on a 181 mile survivor.

unbelievable ??

[Troy]

It's possible that it's been brought up before...
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6334.0.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,6337.0.html

Troy

[Charger Aficionado]

  It is possible... 

[hemi68charger]

  It is possible... 

Yeap, a 1/4 mile at a time.............

Troy

[Old Moparz]

I like that car & color combo.

For one of those flush grille things 

[73rallye440magnum]

i think it's possible.

[69_500]

Definately possible. Definately the real deal. A gorgeous car, does look better in person than those pictures. Absolutely stunning car. In my opinion it is one of  the nicest 500's around.

[OldGuy]

Exhaust system isn't original.   H-pipes didn't exist back then as far as I know.

[Charger Aficionado]

Definately possible. Definately the real deal. A gorgeous car, does look better in person than those pictures. Absolutely stunning car. In my opinion it is one of the nicest 500's around.

Nicest price I'm sure too   

[DC_1]

well if my lotto numbers come in it will be mine!!!!!!.......if they don't.........back to the heap.....errrr.....i mean restoration project in the garage

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

thats bullshit when a car finally makes it to the dealership its suppose to go to to be sold it has around 100 odd miles give or take a few. the lowest mile hemi charger 500 already was found and it is a survivor(check the back issues of mopar action or muscle)
and that car was drag racedonly for one year and it had 400 miles. no car from a  dealership starts off with zero miles on the odometer.cuz it would take some 2 get there.(and its also a restored car why restore it if it only has 180 miles on it???someone just tuned the odometer back during the resto and since it can be proved then it proabably aint real(sorry 4 being so long winded) my 2 bits -MATT

[Schuler]

I've seen cars w/ 0 miles at dealerships.

[Charger Aficionado]

I've seen cars w/ 0 miles at dealerships.

I agree...  I used to work for Dodge, and 2-13mi was the average...

[694spdRT]

 

They don't usually drive new cars to the dealerships from the factory. They are transported by truck...notice the destination charge on the window sticker. When I picked up my ordered truck in 2001 it had less than 1 mile on it due to loading and unloading. Even with test drives 20-30 miles is the most I have seen on new car unless they are dealer to dealer trades.

[HeavyFuel]

Exhuast system isn't original.   H-pipes didn't exist back then as far as I know.

As far as you know?  I suggest a little more research....

[Troy]

thats bullshit when a car finally makes it to the dealership its suppose to go to to be sold it has around 100 odd miles give or take a few. the lowest mile hemi charger 500 already was found and it is a survivor(check the back issues of mopar action or muscle)
and that car was drag racedonly for one year and it had 400 miles. no car from a dealership starts off with zero miles on the odometer.cuz it would take some 2 get there.(and its also a restored car why restore it if it only has 180 miles on it???someone just tuned the odometer back during the resto and since it can be proved then it proabably aint real(sorry 4 being so long winded) my 2 bits -MATT

Ok, next time I need to make a big purchase I'll ask you first and then do the opposite. You blew it on the "clone" Daytona race car too (uh, who's Cotton Owens?) so why bother posting about what you don't really know? You call everyone else's car a fake yet I bet you still don't know how much HP your dad's car puts out (even though you make some great claims). There must be a Stupid Post competition that no one told me about.

Troy

[JimShine]

Exhaust system isn't original.   H-pipes didn't exist back then as far as I know.

1969 Dodge Charger/Coronet/Dart service manual

[Dans 68]

Wow. And it's not even a 4-speed.... Hmm, assumming a 5K initial cost, and 36 years in storage, and at a return of 12% this "new" car IS worth about $300,000. Pretty good deal overall.  

Dan

[Ghoste]

How do they know it was the last one?  I thought they just kind of randomly pulled cars off the line, sent them to Creative for the 500 package and shipped them from there?  If they don't even know how many were built with absolute certainty and the broadcast sheets are all mixed up in them, how are they determining the build order?

[Andrew]

Even if I was a millionaire, I probibly wouldnt want to spend that much on something which is basically a trailer queen.

[Shakey]

Wow. And it's not even a 4-speed.... Hmm, assumming a 5K initial cost, and 36 years in storage, and at a return of 12% this "new" car IS worth about $300,000. Pretty good deal overall.  

Dan

Not if you want to buy it! 

[OldGuy]

I stand corrected - H-pipes were put on the 440 & 426 Hemi.

[Pistolpete]

I want to believe it, I just dont understand why te resto if its a survivor? aren't they worth more untouched?? maybe a buff and shine from a high end detailer but I just dont get the resto???

[Charger_Fan]

I want to believe it, I just dont understand why te resto if its a survivor? aren't they worth more untouched?? maybe a buff and shine from a high end detailer but I just dont get the resto???

Most of the pics of low mileage "survivor" I've seen, everything under the hood is all faded, dried out & surface rusted...not very appealing to the eye. I'm assuming this car was the same way before they got to it.

The only problem is that once they re-touch everything back up, the car no longer holds it's "survivor" status, IMO. It's only original once, after that, it's just well maintained.

[Pistolpete]

Most of the pics of low mileage "survivor" I've seen, everything under the hood is all faded, dried out & surface rusted...not very appealing to the eye. I'm assuming this car was the same way before they got to it.

The only problem is that once they re-touch everything back up, the car no longer holds it's "survivor" status, IMO. It's only original once, after that, it's just well maintained

Although it is amazing even it has been re-touched

[hemigeno]

How do they know it was the last one?   I thought they just kind of randomly pulled cars off the line, sent them to Creative for the 500 package and shipped them from there?   If they don't even know how many were built with absolute certainty and the broadcast sheets are all mixed up in them, how are they determining the build order?

The cars were designated as Charger500's from the start.  No random selections... 

The Fender Tag on all C500s will have A11 coded, which indicates the car is designated to be shipped to Creative Industries for the conversion.  I don't know if C500's had any parts intentionally left off or not - Daytona's were built and left Hamtramck without front grilles.

They are probably making the claim about "last one" by comparing all known VIN's.  I had thought Galen had found a list of all of the purported C500 VIN's (I could be wrong about that), so maybe he has contributed to the making of that claim.  Some people "in the know" swear that a bunch of the VIN's were not actual 500's - just a sequence number pulled from another car and listed as a 500 to keep NASCAR happy.  It's anybody's guess as to what actually happened, but the real 500's were all designated from the start as such.

[69_500]

I don't really know why the car was ever restored, or touched up. I personally never saw the car until I think it was around 1999 or 1998. I shouldn't really say I personally saw it then, just a picture of the car. I saw the car in person 3 years ago. I looked it over then, thought it was a gorgeous car and saw the odometer and just figured someone had rolled it back when they restored the car. A year later I talked to the ower, and found out that was the origional mileage. However I can tell you this, it is not a documented 181 mile car. The only papers that say it has that low of mileage are the newer papers from I think around 1990 or so. So there isn't any paper trail or inspection stickers stating that it didn't ever roll over 100,000. But I do also think that plenty of people in the know have inspected the car and have determined it to be an actual 181 mile car, just no way of totally proving it.
As far as how they determine it is the last HEMI 500, that I'm not sure. I know that I haven't ever run into a HEMI 500 with a higher serial number. I also know that I have only seen 1 500 that has a higher VIN number than this one, and its within 2 digits. A side note is that there is an A4 silver HEMI 500 that is the VIN directly in front of this 500 and its a 4 speed. I have also been told it is the 2nd to last HEMI 500. I don't know where they come up with this info, but I'm assuming it is true as I haven't ever been able to disprove that figure. I have also been told that the date this car was built was the last production date for 500's. Which would substantiate the theory of it being the last HEMI 500 built.

Does anyone recall what magazine had the article about the lowest mileage HEMI 500 in existance? Is it the F8 green HEMI 500 that Legendary Auto's had for sale about a year ago? I believe that car had a total of like 1,200 miles on it and had been a drag car in the begining of its life. That car does have a paper trail documenting its mileage however. I think that up until a few years ago it only had 400 miles on it. When it was in Kentucky, then it went to Ohio and that owner drove the car a bit and ran the miles up over 1,000. Then it went to Legendary, and I think that they had owned it once before as well.

[Ghoste]

So we know for sure which car was first, second, third and so on for a little bit, but eventually reach a point of unknowns?  Especially as to determining which one was last?

[69_500]

Yeah we know which cars were the first ones due to their serial numbers, really more because of their VON. Each 500's VON started with 925, and in the other thread about 500's the car is 110610 VIN number and it has a VON that is 925000. Hence how we know it is the first 500. The dilema comes when there is a car like say I know of one with a VON of 925032. I dont know if that is the 33rd 500 built. I personally think its about the 12-13th one built. But I have no way to prove that other than I don't have 31 cars in between the first and that one. The problem is that like with this one the VON is 925742. Now we are pretty sure, I'd say 99.99% sure they never made 742 of the Charger 500's. So that rules out there being a Charger 500 for each VON in the sequence of 925000 and 925742. But we also know of none with higher VON's than 924744. Like my 500 is VIN 224393 and the VON on the car is 925332. But I don't in any way think that it is the 332nd 500 made. I think it is more along the lines of the 175th to 200th one made. Its pretty much in the middle of known 500 VIN's. The other problem is that there are known 500's that people have never seen. As in there are build sheets to 500's that people have never found. IE I have seen a build sheet for a R6 HEMI 500, that no one has ever seen or heard of. But we know it existed or there wouldn't have been a buildsheet. Then there are also cars that are on a supposed list of 500's that haven't ever been heard or seen of before either. My guess is that most of the cars on that list are true cars. But I've also been told by old Chrysler employees who admited they just typed in any numbers for that list to satisfy NASCAR back then. As they only wated a list of VIN's to prove 500 made, and that they never personally inspected the 500 street versions to see if they really existed.

[69_500]

Anyone have any idea as to where this BLACK HEMI 500 is today?

[Blakcharger440]

Wow, that would be a sweet project! Pics look period correct also! 

[hemigeno]

The dilema comes when there is a car like say I know of one with a VON of 925032. I dont know if that is the 33rd 500 built. I personally think its about the 12-13th one built. But I have no way to prove that other than I don't have 31 cars in between the first and that one. The problem is that like with this one the VON is 925742. Now we are pretty sure, I'd say 99.99% sure they never made 742 of the Charger 500's. So that rules out there being a Charger 500 for each VON in the sequence of 925000 and 925742. But we also know of none with higher VON's than 924744. Like my 500 is VIN 224393 and the VON on the car is 925332. But I don't in any way think that it is the 332nd 500 made. I think it is more along the lines of the 175th to 200th one made.

Danny,

Based on what I've seen with the Daytona Shipping and Dealer Invoice lists series that have been published in the Winged Warrior club newsletters, there are gaps in the VON number sequence on those as well.  My most updated spreadsheet is at the house, but I know there are significant gaps in their sequence.  As you suspected, you can't go by the VON's to establish how many cars were built.  Daytona's mostly have 926xxx as their VON, but they jump well into the 927xxx's as well.  A whole lot less than 1,100 or 1,200 Daytonas were built, and the explanation is that the VON sequence has some major gaps.

Incidentally, I'm attaching an excerpt of some instructions I have for the A11 Charger 500 package.  Considering all of the changes that were "supposed" to be made back and forth from XX to XS and back to XX, it's no wonder that some of the cars had issues with their documentation.  I wonder if the Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO) sheets read XX or XS?  Might explain why the titles mostly read XS, eh??

Geno

[69_500]

Well it definately sheds some more light on the whole Titles and registrations having XS. I know that a lot of the Daytona's my dad had over the years had XS on the titles. He had a heck of a time getting them to retitle the cars as XX instead of XS. I don't recall if he had a problem with either of the 500's though.

[PocketThunder]

There was a member on the old board called avs something that had a black HEMI 500 with vinyl top, i have his cars picture saved on my comp at home, i'll try to post it tonight....

[69_500]

Was it a project HEMI 500 car?

I believe that the car in the picture is supposed to be F8 green HEMI 500. Because I remember him talking about how he was anxiously awaiting MsMopars completion of her HEMI 500 due to it also being F8 green.

[PocketThunder]

Yes thats the one.

[asv457]

Hey, that's my car!  It's F5 with black stripe and green interior.  And, my screen name is the license plate from my 1st car.  Not to be confused with an Air Valve Secondary carb.

Incidentally, for you guys who keep track, I bought a left rear 1/4 panel from a 69 500 a couple of year back.  The numbers on the trunk rail read "B9 210727."  It was F8 with a black stripe and black welting on the b-pillar/ door striker.

[PocketThunder]

Hey, that's my car!   It's F5 with black stripe and green interior.   And, my screen name is the license plate from my 1st car.   Not to be confused with an Air Valve Secondary carb.

Incidentally, for you guys who keep track, I bought a left rear 1/4 panel from a 69 500 a couple of year back.   The numbers on the trunk rail read "B9 210727."   It was F8 with a black stripe and black welting on the b-pillar/ door striker.

NO way!!!!         dude! what took you so long to find us?  or were you lurking for a while?    Can you find the rest of that donor car that you got the 1/4 panel from?

I need to talk to you about the vinly top trim.  I want to see if my cars trim matches your cars......

Paul
in St. Paul, MN

[69_500]

Glad to see a few more of the 500 owners showing up to the party.


Where there any other salvageable parts to the car you got the quarter panel off of?

[Charger_Fan]

You know, seeing that picture got me thinking...I don't know if I've ever seen a 500 or Daytona with the rear window corners rusted out like the standard 2nd gen cars do. Are the trunks usually in better shape too? 


Oh & welcome to the site, asv457...come tell us more about your car.

[asv457]

i bought the 1/4 from a member of the Winged Warriors club about 18 months ago.  He advertised in the classifieds for two months with no replies.  His story was a body shop ordered a regular charger 1/4 from a local junk yard in the late 1970's.  This quarter was delivered and was no use.  He was able to pick it up cheap as a spare for a couple of Daytonas he had.  He stuffed it in his back yard, sold the Daytonas for kids tuitions, and got out of Mopars.  Wife finally got on his back about cleaning the yard and found the 1/4 in pretty good shape under a grape vine.  I drove up to central CA and picked it up for cheap.  Car is supposedly long gone.
Regarding close-ups of the vinyl top trim, I can scan some prints on Sunday night.  Any detail photos will have to wait until Tuesday or Wednesday, but should not be a problem. 

[69_500]

Anyone have any idea as to where this BLACK HEMI 500 is today?

I have an update to this post. I know now where this black HEMI 500 is today. It is the car that is for sale on Ebay. This explains why the car needed a restoration, but to me brings up a new question. IS IT NUMBERS MATCHING. Those pictures were of a car that had a blown engine.

[69_500]

Just something for some people to chew on.

[PocketThunder]

You know, seeing that picture got me thinking...I don't know if I've ever seen a 500 or Daytona with the rear window corners rusted out like the standard 2nd gen cars do. Are the trunks usually in better shape too?  

No way man!

It all has to do with where the car is from.  Unfortunately my car spent its life in Minnesota and Wisconsin 

[69_500]

anyone have any thoughts on if it is the same car?

[Charger_Fan]

You know, seeing that picture got me thinking...I don't know if I've ever seen a 500 or Daytona with the rear window corners rusted out like the standard 2nd gen cars do. Are the trunks usually in better shape too?  

No way man!

It all has to do with where the car is from.   Unfortunately my car spent its life in Minnesota and Wisconsin  

Well, I should have said every one other than PT's car!

Well, if that black car is really the same one, it's safe to bet that the hood isn't original to the car.

[69_500]

would explain the repaint, and restoration even for a car with so low miles.

and yeah the hood and I'm going to say the engine aren't origional.

[Just 6T9 CHGR]

Hmmm...very interesting!      That would explain the low mileage if it were indeed a track car (hood scoop)

The plot thickens!!!

[hemigeno]

anyone have any thoughts on if it is the same car?

Well, I suppose just because an engine "blew" doesn't mean it wasn't repaired/rebuilt.   It would raise some serious questions though, for the people really interested in buying it.   

It does look pretty darn like the car in the old pictures, for sure...   X9 Hemi500, column auto, buddy seat, woodgrain wheel...

The only thing that doesn't quite jive is the fact that the old pictures show a car with manual brakes.   A 4.10 SuperPerformance Axle Package would require Power Discs, wouldn't it?   If the car in the old pictures had its factory brake setup, then it wasn't a 4.10 car.   The car on eBay touts the fact that it's a 4.10 Dana car, and it has the PDB booster & master cylinder.   Slight difference, but still something to think about.

[hemigeno]

One possible explanation on the Power vs. Manual brake thing...

If they were going to use this car as a drag car, they may have changed out the original brake setup for a manual.   The reason they might have done this is because with the Power Brake booster, you can't pull the left side valve cover without taking the booster loose and tieing it up off to the side.   '69 Hemi's had solid lifters, which meant that you had to adjust the lash - especially with a drag car.   They may have gotten real sick of messing with the booster and switched the brake system out.   The useful advantage of disc brakes is sorta lost on a drag car IMHO.

That's perhaps farfetched, but who knows?

[Charger_Fan]

That's perhaps farfetced, but who knows?

Makes sense to me.

[69_500]

From what I was just told you nailed it right on the head there Gene. They switched the car to manual brakes to race it. The car was a 4.10 dana car, and the motor was blown drag racing. The engine was resleeved and repaired.

[Ghoste]

For that matter, do you know it was the original engine they raced?  They jsut may have had a race ready mill to drop in and that was the one that blew?

[Pistolpete]

ummmm......anyone notice that its been pulled from ebay???    hhmmmmm........

[69_500]

Yeah it was the origional engine that was raced. But then I guess it has been resleeved and is repaired now.

hadn't noticed it being pulled from ebay. Just relisted with a new buy it now of $375K.

[Ghoste]

And it isn't even January yet.  Say, wouldn't it be interesting if B-J turned out to be a buyers market and diamond encrusted platinum wrapped solid gold Hemi cars weren't selling??
Just musing, not offering a crystal ball prediction btw.

[69_500]

That would be a pretty funny thing.

OH this is also off topic, but did anyone else notice that a HEMI Daytona sold for $600K? It was listed in Hemmings Classic Car magazine in the back where they break down past auctions.

[wingcars6970]

More info on this 500 .I hear from friends the block is a restamped vin

**Link Removed**

[wingcars6970]

**Link Removed**

[Ghoste]

So with all the rumors about restamped blocks and repaints and so forth, how about a show of hands from the people who think this is a legit 375k car?
Which of course, doesn't mean that some blue chip investor with clean fingernails won't step up and take the hit on this car.  I'm just wondering how many think it's a safe buy at that number.

[69_500]

Well I'll put it this way. A year and a half ago this car came up for sale for a reported $85K at the time. I had a buddy who was very interested in the car. I looked it over and checked some stuff out, (at that time I had forgot about the older pics) but something just didn't seem right. I didn't like the fact it had rocker moldings on it when it wasn't supposed to. The repaint looks great but isn't really a concourse style of paint. And to me it being a granny shift HEMI car downgrades it a bit. But the buddy seat to me is a plus. I prefer a buddy seat with a 4 speed but that is just me. Long story short I told my buddy to pass on the car at $85K told him there were better deals out there. He has since got a few wing cars, but none are hemi cars. I think he should have picked it up then for $85K now that I think about it, but at the time $85K was high for a HEMI 500.

So no I don't think it will fetch $375K. I thought it had maxed out pretty much around the $200K mark. Yeah its a great looking car, but you can't drive it, and being that you can't drive it, its not concourse either. Its a great looking car, but overdone.

[Charger_Fan]

In that case, it sounds like it should be in about the same arena as this silver one.
Although the silver one isn't an original HEMI car & wouldn't be worth as much as such, the black one isn't really original anymore either, with a non #'s engine, extra moulding & a non-concours paint job.

[69_500]

Is that the Silver 500 that was just up on ebay about a month ago?

The one that was origionally white, but now is silver, and has a HEMI transplanted in it?

[Charger_Fan]

Is that the Silver 500 that was just up on ebay about a month ago?

The one that was origionally white, but now is silver, and has a HEMI transplanted in it?

Yep.

[69_500]

Does anyone recall if it is a 4 speed or an auto?

[Blown70]

it was on there earlier today IIRC

Tom

[Charger_Fan]

Does anyone recall if it is a 4 speed or an auto?

Auto. Love the exhaust, BTW.
These are the last two I've got of it, I promise.

[hemigeno]

Danny, is the silver/white car one of the factory A/C C500's, or do you know if that firewall has been swapped out?

[Ghoste]

And why would you promise not to put up more pics of the car?  It's worth seeing.

[Charger_Fan]

And why would you promise not to put up more pics of the car?   It's worth seeing.

'Cause I only have those four.

I was just laughing to myself when I said that, because I kept answering his questions with pictures. 

[69_500]

I think they said that the car was a factory A/C Charger 500 , but I'd have to look back at the information. I wrote it down in my book, but I'll look it up tomorrow.

[69_500]

OKay since I just noticed I was getting close to 1,000 post I figured I'd stick it out for a little longer and make sure to post #1,000 in a thread about 500's.

So Gene, here is what I was told about the Silver 500. It was a factory W1 white car, with black interior, AT, and yes A/C. Then I have also been told that the car had the V1X option as well, making it yet anothe vinyl top car.

Does anyone know if this car sold, or if it is still owned by the people who advertised it?

[Charger_Fan]

Looks like it didn't sell on that go-round.

Here's the original thread; http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,3319.0.html

[69_500]

Yeah that thread made me remember PocketThunder talking about knowing of another project R4 500 that someone was going to fix up some before selling. HEY POCKET do you have any more information on that car?

[69_500]

Update to the Silver 500 that we were talking about. Anyone else see it in this months issue of Mopar Muscle?

Seems he should have waited a month to put it up for sale. Love that Y2 yellow HEMI 500 in that article too. Saw it 2 years ago at the Mopar nationals, and loved it then too.

[Charger_Fan]

I haven't seen that issue yet, I'll have to go snag one.

[69_500]

Has a pretty good write up on the 2 cars. How they are both in the same area and such. I guess the Silver car has a 528 ci HEMI in it. Making 610 hp. I thought it was just a crate 426.

[PocketThunder]

Yeah that thread made me remember PocketThunder talking about knowing of another project R4 500 that someone was going to fix up some before selling. HEY POCKET do you have any more information on that car?

i e-mailed the guy again awhile back and he said he was still working on fixing it up before he sells it.  So it wont be a project C500 for someone to buy, but probably a fully restored car.  He's in CT somewhere, Old Moparz bought his cuda from the guy.  I have his e-mail addy at work somewhere i think...

[69_500]

CT, hmmmm. Don't know of many 500's in that area. Can remember a gentleman from up that way back in the late 80's to early 90's who had a ton of winged cars pass through his place.