Lighter gen 2

[Mike DC]

   
A road racing car's front end isn't gonna dive hard downwards every time he hits the brakes hard.  The suspension is just too tightly sprung & shocked for that. 

A street car's front end will dive like that.  So the factories built the cars with lotsa anti-dive back in the day to work with it.     

       



It's the same reason that race cars have larger rear brakes (even when they are proportioned out to match the size of the front brakes) than stock street cruisers.  They might actually need a lot of rear brake power/fade resistance because they might be doing a hard & fast stop but not throwing the whole body-weight forwards in the process. 

A totally street car hardly needs any rear brakes at all.  It's generally either gonna be stopping very gradually (and not need a ton of brakes from either end) or else it's gonna be standing on the nose in a panic stop, in which case the demand is still mostly for front brakes. 

[Ghoste]

I just realized that I was looking at it backwards.  When you were talking about anti-dive geometry, even though I was reading it correctly in my mind I was thinking it was the oem setup that had poorer anti dive characteristics.  The light bulb is on now, thanks guys.

[HPP]

Something else I thought of that hasn't been mentioned...paint. If your car is like most of mine, they likely have had several paint jobs. Once you look at a gallon of primer, gallon of paint, gallon or two of clear, several quarts of reducer, and several pints of hardener, it is entirely possible to have a paint job that is 40-50 pounds. Stripping the body down to bare steel and starting over could easily take 100-150 pounds off the car.

I have a Challenger that has six paints jobs on it. I think it will be close to 200# lighter once those are stripped off and all the bondo is replaced with steel.

[Ghoste]

I've been telling people for years that silver is the fastest of all colors because it is so much lighter than other paints. 

[motorcitydak]

I fully agree that paint can add some weight to a car. Mine had 3 total coats on it including the original red. It has all been stripped down to bare metal, I am even going to take the lead out of the seams. Not really for weight, just because mine is showing some rust under the area where I did take some out. Ill get it off the car, primer it then cover and smooth it down with duraglass and light weight bondo

[G-man]

I've been telling people for years that silver is the fastest of all colors because it is so much lighter than other paints. 

And I always thought red cars go faster 

[Ghoste]

No, no, not at all.  Red is a very heavy color.  Especially some of the older formulations where they used a lot of lead in it. 

[Mike DC]

                     

You guys aren't counting on the major amount of evaporation in the drying process of all these sprayed on layers.  Maybe there's a lotta bondo to clean off some cars, but I can't imagine a car gaining 200 pounds just from what came out of the paint gun.    


I once read something about a modern Corvette racer where they had saved 18 pounds with a certain type of lighter/thinner paint.  

 

[suntech]

I once read something about a modern Corvette racer where they had saved 18 pounds with a certain type of lighter/thinner paint.

Even that sounds like a lot!! If the goal is to have a racecar in a color on pictures, yes.
If you want a car to look right, up close, no!!

How much paint is needed to paint car under, inside, then base and clear outside? Forget undercoating!!!!
I would think about 3 gallons plus thinner should be plenty. Add a gallon of filler,(spray 2 gallons, and sand away 1)  and we are talking about maybe 30 pounds of paint. Maybe 80 % of this actually gets on the car? The thinner is evaporating away in the drying.

My guess is app 25-30 pounds added in paint / filler, starting from a NICE body.

  Stop eating junkfood, put in an aluminum block, and paint the car nice!!! 

[Mike DC]

Stop eating junkfood, put in an aluminum block, and paint the car nice!!! 

Now we're talking. 


I wish someone made an aluminum-block version of the modern gen-III Hemi motors.

 

[flyinlow]

For me the driver could go on a diet and pick up a tenth of a second or so. Probably won't happen . At least until January.

American Airlines leaves most of the surface of their aircraft polished aluminum instead of painted and saves hundreds of pounds per aircraft in paint and alot of fuel over a years time.

[HPP]

[
My guess is app 25-30 pounds added in paint / filler, starting from a NICE body.

 

Multiply that times the 6 paint jobs on my car, I'm at 180# over original, plus x amount of pounds of filler that I'm finding in the quarters. I never would have beleived it if I hadn't started trying to get to bare metal in a few spots. I've got darn near .125 thick paint all over the car. It's crazy.

[suntech]

I wish someone made an aluminum-block version of the modern gen-III Hemi motors.

hey Mike!! Whats wrong with a gen II ?? 

[Mike DC]

    
Nuthin wrong with the Gen-II Hemis.  I'd love to have an aluminum one of those.  

But on an ideal road racer (read: 3000 pounds or less) I would just prefer to trade some cubic inches to get the motor even lighter than the alloy 426 motors.    



   

[Ghoste]

If someone casts the right Gen III block, you won't have to give up much in cubes either.

[Mike DC]

 
The lightest aluminum production-based V8s seem to land in the ballpark of 1 pound per cubic inch.  I'd love a Hemi motor with the pounds & inches in the 350-400 range.

[suntech]

But on an ideal road racer (read: 3000 pounds or less) I would just prefer to trade some cubic inches to get the motor even lighter than the alloy 426 motors.

I am hoping for 3500 dry, but i doubt i will be able to get much below that. I want to have a nice interior, and nice finish on stuff. I am not going to put in 100 pounds worth of sound system though. Just a normal nice one.
As for motor weight i am hoping in the ballpark of 500, ready to run, based on the known weights that has been posted here earlier.

I am agree that lightest possible is nice, but chassis must be as stiff and rigid as possible. I am also a strong believer in well thought through weight distribution and balance, as well of lowest possible unsprung weight. Some of this might not do as big a difference on a skid pad, but in the real workd this really matters.

This is really an interresting topic. What about making a list, with the weight of the different stuff we are talking about???  You know....motors, hoods, trunklids, doors,complete front ends, transmissions, rears etc.

[Mike DC]

Here's my epic list of 69 Charger component weight estimates.  I've had this saved on my computer and I've been working on it occasionally for a few years.  

It's mostly rough estimates.  But I have personally handled all these pieces over the years so I don't think any of the numbers are radically wrong.  And if you add up all the individual figures, it amounts to something that is within range of a correct final curb weight figure.  The total is a bit low, but you can probably explain that as miscellaneous stuff that is not in the list.  



2nd-gen unibody shell - purely guessing - maybe 1200 lbs.

fenders - 45 lbs each  
hood - 50-60 lbs  
Trunkild - 40 lbs?

bumpers & brackets - maybe 25 lbs at each end  
Front valance - 10 lbs
grille (whole assembly) - 40 lbs?  

steel door shells alone - 35 lbs ?
(doors - probably 60-70 pounds each by the time they have the glass & hardware & vent windows. )

Windshield + rear window + rear side window glass - maybe 150 lbs ?

rear axle (8.75" with no brakes) - 160 lbs  
Dana 60 rear for these cars - 210 lbs
Driveshaft - 30 lbs?
(entire unsprung rear end (with wheels/tires and leaf springs) -  300+ lbs?)

front K-frame, with the LCAs, strut rods, swaybar, steering linkage, etc - 120 lbs?
stock power steering box - 40 lbs.    
(front susp total here + 100 lbs for the wheels & brakes/spindles = 260+ lbs?)

Brake pedel assy + power booster + MC + prop block - 40 lbs?
steering column & wheel - 25 lbs?  
under-dash heat/AC box - 30 lbs?
Taillight assy's - 40 lbs?

front buckets - 40+ lbs each ?
dash assembly - 50 lbs?
rear bench - 25 lbs?
Carpeting + other various insulation - 35 lbs?
Center console + shifter assy - 25 lbs?

 
*  *  *  total so far = around  2700 lbs  for the rolling chassis with no drivetrain  *  *  *  


BB wedge motor - 625-675 lbs
727 tranny - 120+ lbs?

Battery - 50 lbs
Spare tire - 30 lbs
Jack + tire iron - 20 lbs

*  *  *  total = around 3600 lbs without any fluids *  *  *

[Ghoste]

Mike, is your estimate on the glass counting rear glass hardware?  Just being curious and excellent list BTW.

[Mike DC]

                

Yeah, I called that glass figure as 150 lbs including the rear roll-up regulators, bracketry, etc.  Honestly the glass was one of the least-precise things on that list though.  

I'm pretty sure about some things (like the power steering box or the rear axles for example), but others were really guesses.  I'm satisfied that probably nothing on there is 100 pounds off (except maybe the unibody shell), but a lot of the smaller stuff could be 20 or even 40 lbs away from correct.  

It's just a lot of mental ballparking, not to be taken as gospel by any means.  Some things are based off figures that I heard someone else say and I just thought their number sounded good.  Like I said, I've personally carried all this stuff around the garage at one time or another.  But it's been several years or more for some pieces, others were disassembled differently than I listed them here, I wasn't thinking about weight figures at the time, etc.    
 

[Ghoste]

I have some of those glass parts laying around someplace.  Perhaps I'll try and make a mental note to weigh them the next time I  have to move them to get at soemthing else.

[Mike DC]

Looking & thinking again, the glass #s there are probably too high.


 

I just stepped onto a bathroom scale while holding a loose 2nd-gen rear window glass.  (Center rear window for the standard tunnelback roofline.  Original 40yo item not a repro.)

It only added about 15-16 pounds to the scale number.  That was a bit less than I thought, I had guessed 20+ pounds before stepping onto the scale.  Even with the butyl sealant layer & stainless trim it's gotta be under 20 lbs.

The windshield is probably a good bit more though.  It's a much bigger item and has multiple layers.  Maybe 25 or 30 pounds with trim & gasket?  

 
 

[motorcitydak]

Thanks for that list Mike. So far the plans to be lighter are the glass front end which comes out to 5# for each fender and 10# for the hood, racing seats at around 20# a piece, stripped interior, no heat or a/c, glass dash and light weight gauges, ISIS electrical system, tubular K member and control arms, full floating 9 inch rear with a 3 link and coil overs, most likely a fuel cell, 5.7 hemi and 545rfe(which is heavier than a 727, but the weight is farther back). I am thinking about leaving the deck lid just to keep the car relatively balanced. battery will be in the trunk too. I am really concentrating on cutting weight from the front of the car. I do have to keep the power steering tho since my front tires are so dam wide. I will be putting a steering quickener in the column tho and keeping the stock pitman arm. Ill prob get a firm feel box tho.

I have an idea to weigh the car thru out the process, It may not be extremely accurate tho. I have 2 4 inch diameter 12 inch stroke pneumatic cylinders, dont ask why. I could build stands for em and a frame to lift from, then just measure the pressure it takes to lift the car. 

[Mike DC]

  
Sounds good. 

Leaving the stock trunklid might not be a bad idea.  These cars are definitely more nose-heavy than they should be and the effects on overall handling are real. 

 

[suntech]

Hey guys! Took the scale to the garage today, to weigh the hood and trunklid.  The hood was 64 lbs, and trunklid was 35.

I have also talked to the guy that is going to build my carbon stuff. ( I am just doing the molds myself ) He is doing a LOT of stuff for the rice-boiler drifting guys here, and has a very good reputation. The layup he is normally using for hoods and lids are 900 grams (2x450) This, with a laminate/ resin ratio at app 70/30 when vacumed proparly, are we talking about somewhere in the ballpark of 1,3 kgs pr square meter. With the area of these parts, with full innerliners, we are talking about a weight loss in the ballpark of 65 lbs!!!

Remember...this will be parts made VERY solid, with proper innerliners and finish!!!  I am actually tempted to do molds from the doors too!!! An aluminum beam inside, from hinge to lock, would make it at least as safa as the original door, and a hell of a lot lighter!! Would be cool to slim the car by 100 lbs   Well.............we´ll see