Lighter gen 2

[Nacho-RT74]

How about losing weight on the driver? I race mountain bikes and I see guys all the time trying to save grams from their bike parts yet they outweigh me by 60-80 pounds. I know the vehicle to operator weight ratio is way different but the concept is still valid.

[Troy]

Good point, Ron's (firefighter3931) "Black Pig" 68 Charger has run sub 12 second 1/4 mile times with a full interior, roll cage, Dana, and all steel body. It also has a 446 - not a stroker, aluminum block, or anything exotic.

Troy

[skip68]

   Ron's car is by far faster than mine.    I wonder how Ron would feel if on Sunday I had my 12 year old go out and strip my car and then on Monday I beat Ron ?     I wonder if he would say great job skip, your car kicks but? ? ? ? ?     Would I gain his respect ?   Would he be proud of me for building a faster car than his ?      I think not.    I do understand that lighter is faster and you should loose as much weight as you can on a race car.   I just don't like the idea for street drivin cars.  To me it seems like cheating.   Sorry guys, I'm done with my stupid ranting.   

[HPP]

OK guys, here is my dumb  ...  What ever happened to just making the car faster and not lighter ?  

To me they are interchangeable, but that's why I asked, how light do you want to be. Light weight comes with a price tag too, just like big horsepower does. It isn't as simple s  gutting everything out. They are different means to the same end. So, checking the budget against the goals can then help determine is the money better spent getting lighter or building bigger.

[Mike DC]

  
Horsepower = adds muscle.  

Weight loss = adds muscle, traction, handling, braking, and drivetrain strength.


 

[Troy]

Horsepower = adds muscle. 

But can look otherwise stock for that "sleeper" status.

Weight loss = adds muscle, traction, handling, braking, and drivetrain strength.

But generally (not always) looks cheap/cheezy - like you spent all your money on the motor and couldn't afford to finish the car. When I was younger I refused to race anyone whose car looked like it had lost half it's parts during the last hard shift - I didn't want anything flying off and damaging my paint! Sorry, I just don't "get" the race car look on a street car unless it's really a race car (really, a no-frills, purpose built, well executed race car) that happens to be street legal.

Troy

[R2]

there's another ugly Charger to be added to the threads where questionable things are done to Chargers....

You obviously have not seen the car in person........

Big money car,,,and is one of the few people that has taken the effort and money to "race" a Charger and run super fast .... it's not stock obviously,,, but it's still a top of the line race car,,,with a Charger theme..........

[Mike DC]

  

But generally (not always) looks cheap/cheezy - like you spent all your money on the motor and couldn't afford to finish the car. When I was younger I refused to race anyone whose car looked like it had lost half it's parts during the last hard shift - I didn't want anything flying off and damaging my paint! Sorry, I just don't "get" the race car look on a street car unless it's really a race car (really, a no-frills, purpose built, well executed race car) that happens to be street legal.

I agree somewhat but it also depends how you lose the weight.

There's nothing cheap-looking about a $5000 aluminum engine block or a rack & pinion conversion.  And neither are prone to falling off the car at speed. 

 

[suntech]

There's nothing cheap-looking about a $5000 aluminum engine block or a rack & pinion conversion.  And neither are prone to falling off the car at speed.

   

[Troy]

 

But generally (not always) looks cheap/cheezy - like you spent all your money on the motor and couldn't afford to finish the car. When I was younger I refused to race anyone whose car looked like it had lost half it's parts during the last hard shift - I didn't want anything flying off and damaging my paint! Sorry, I just don't "get" the race car look on a street car unless it's really a race car (really, a no-frills, purpose built, well executed race car) that happens to be street legal.

I agree somewhat but it also depends how you lose the weight.

There's nothing cheap-looking about a $5000 aluminum engine block or a rack & pinion conversion.  And neither are prone to falling off the car at speed. 

 

You just described the last part of what I said. Typically, anyone laying out that sort of money for an engine has at least a plan and some organization. Their car probably even has nice paint. I bet there aren't too many cruising the streets either. I guarantee I've never run across any of them.

Troy

[Mike DC]

 
Fair enough.  You usually don't find $5000 engine blocks in busted-ass primered S-10 pickups with lowering blocks & bumper rollpans. 

   
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But raggedy or not, I'll bet this thing would be pretty fast with a decent 440 in it:

[Charger440RDN]

Well it doesn't appear that this Jim Pranis Charger has fiberglass parts except the hood and it ran an 8.99 quarter on leaf springs!!! This was posted before but here is a refresher. FAST


                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUPjpF11MIc

[R2]

I love Jim's car,,,superfast,,,street driven,,,and a very nice guy.....he has a BIG hemi in that thing....and it flys....

[G-man]

I think losing weight on steel parts wit aluminium parts is fine, leave body abd exterior stock looking but under it all special salloy/titanium. Also stuffing more hp in a heavy car is cheaper than taking weight off. To have a charger double the size of a toyota supra and weigh the same amount with steel body, thats awesome! To have all that extra HP and lose is shamefull. I rather take the weight off AND have all that HP 

[Charger440RDN]

I think I like the approach of the Pranis Charger, bigger motor more power, car still looks natural and stock for the most part, not all gutted out. If you ever see close up pictures of this car the paint looks like it's a trailer queen show car only. Hard to argue with an 8.99 quarter time

[Blown70]

True on Jims car and I love it but our guy is trying to make a road course or Auto cross car... not a straight line runner..... Just to bring this back to topic for him....

[Mike DC]

See this?  



Apparently these Dyacorn camaro shells (said to be full weight steel) come in at about 900 pounds.  



Turn that into a Charger, add the front unibody area (just the welded on stuff), add on the roof . . . I doubt you've hit 1400 pounds yet.  Maybe 1300.  A stock BB Charger is pushing 3700 pounds.  3700 - 1300 = the stock car might be carrying as much as 2400 pounds in stuff other than the unibody itself.  


My point is that there are plenty of places to look for weight loss before you start taking a sawzall to the unibody.  

[Troy]

Troy

[HPP]

True on Jims car and I love it but our guy is trying to make a road course or Auto cross car... not a straight line runner..... Just to bring this back to topic for him....

Which is a very valid point, so much so that I will add that the SCCA rule book will say what can and can't be done about body lightening and engine modifications. Depending on the class the car is being built for, these rules can be HIGHLY restrictive to fairly liberal.

If its being built for Goodguys autocross then nevermind. Do whatever your wallet can afford.

[motorcitydak]

Like Blown70 said, I am going for a street legal road racer. While I respect the drag guys, I just do not like that aspect of racing enough to build my car in that direction. I want it to be able to handle and stop as well if not better than it takes off mostly in order to be more safe in traffic. You never know when a sudden turn or stop will be in order and a drag car mite now be able to avoid it as well as mine would. The car will be a street machine more than a race car so I am not terribly worried if I do not meed SCCA rules. If I do not, local road race track still has open track days I can just go and play, there are 6 of them a year iirc. I want to be fast, but I do not want be in an agressive form of racing that woild put myself or the car in danger. I just want to have fun with it and occasionally ring it out on the track just like you drag racing guys. I will just be using my steering wheel a lot more than you. 

Most of my ideas with the car do not involve much cutting on the car itself with the expection of what ever direction I go with the front end. Most of the other things will all be bolted on and easily removable. The fenders and hood could be replaced in a day. I know you guys do not like the idea of glass body panels but I do not know if you have seen some in person. I just got my fenders yesturday for $100. These will need some work because there are a few cracks in one of em, but you will be hard pressed to find a fender that is any more smooth than mine now. They are dent free (obviously) and smooth as glass  . I still have my stock steel fenders but they would take a week of work each to get them in acceptable form. The weigh saving is just crazy, I can hold one of my fenders balanced on my pinky finger. Id be supprised if they weigh more than 5#. They will need a structure to bolt them in the front and I will have to build another one to hold the grill assembly on too, but that is not too bad.

From a street point of view, I will be keeping the factory steel bumpers.

I completely agree with the weight savings on the driver too, but at only 145, Im not sure how much I can be expected to drop. I just started a new work out, Im looking to gain 30# or so.

Again, with the exception of the front suspension, I am not looking to do anything to my car that cannot be put back to stock. Im not going to use the factory gauges or dash, but Im still going to keep them just in case I want to put it back the way it was.

The motor Im planning will be the 5.7 Hemi and am planning on getting around 500-550hp out of that thing. Combind that with a lightweight yet rigid platform with the traction to back it up, I will be fast no matter how you look at it. If some of you guys do not like that, then I am sorry, but its my car. There were 91,000 of these things made. I want mine to be exactly what I have always dreamed of and nothing less. I do however promise that form will be just as important of function here. It will not be some ragged thrown together POS.

[G-man]

Sounds good.

Mine will mainly be a street car to... infact it will never go to the track. But I would like to build it street/drag type... as much drag as I can get before I lose saftey/cruising street ability (Pro-Street car)

550 hp... id rather a 472 hemi. Will be much more fuel efficient, last longer and less maintenence needed and will produce that power in basicaly stock form and its a 'real' hemi.

Whatever you decide, good luck and keep us updated.  

[Mike DC]

                        
--  If you're gonna run a metal framework in the front area of the fenders then 'glass fenders will probably work okay.  IMO the main problem with the glass fenders is that the glass can't hold up the rest of the front end ahead of the radiator support like a stock fender does.  If you do that job with separate metal pieces then the fender itself is just an outer skin piece that's along for the ride.  It should be no more crack-prone than the hood or trunklid that way.  


--  You might consider 'glass door shells.  Although in a street car that would be a lot to convert & mess with.  


-- IMO the entire grille plastic/headlights/framework is too heavy for the job it does.  A basic metal framework and a fixed headlight deal could drop some weight.  The stock setup doesn't weight a gigantic amount but it's WA-A-AY out on the front end of the car, which magnifies the effect the weight has.


--  The dash is another place to lose a few pounds.  Each individual component doesn't seem outrageously heavy on its own, but the assembled total dash & steering column weighs a lot more than a similar setup in a modern car.   Especially when you consider how much more elaborate stuff is in the modern one.  A lighter steering colum/wheel + lighter dashboard frame/pads + lighter instrument cluster = decent weight loss.  

[motorcitydak]

Thanks Mike


Id like to use the glass doors but I see them as a safety device being steel. God forbid I ever take a hit in a door, I would have no protection from a fiberglass door but mite fair a bit better with some steel between it. Also I want to keep the glass itself and the ability to roll them down and up. I know the combo will have a lot of weight, but that one I think is a necessary evil. Add to that the fact that I have 2 very good doors to put on, I cannot justify not using them like I am doing the fenders. The rear window mite be locked in the up position, Im not sure about that one yet.

I agree too that the grill has a lot of weight to it and it does not help that its hanging off the front end so far. That is my favorite thing about the car however so again, I think it will have to stay in stock form. The grill support is something that I am not going to modify or cut up. By the response to this thread so far, I think I would be tared and feathered for doing something like that just to shave 5 pounds or so. That weight will have to come out somewhere else. 

I do not think the steering column is all that heavy in itself so I was planning on using that. The dash however just does not make the cut. It is also something I do not want to destroy by hacking it up. The idea here is to use the dash VFN offers for a Challenger and modify it to fit my car. It looks nothing like the Charger one and I have no idea if it will fit width wise so I am planning on modifying it a lot. Ill fill it with Autometer gauges to save weight. I am also planning on calling up Painless to have some sort of custom wiring harness done up. Ill have to rig up a switch to also activate the headlight doors, but I think it will be a lot more simple than the stock harness. That part I know will not be cheap, but neither is a stock harness.

I just wish I had the time to get some of this stuff done. Ive been working a lot of 60+ hour weeks so I can pay for this car. Ill be lucky to bring this car in for under $20,000 so Im trying to get in all the OT I can while I can. Im on an overtime shift rite now, Im just not busy at the moment. I just need to not work too much so I do not find myself single. I do have a few hours planned to work on the car tho this saturday. Im going to work on putting the cowl back on. I had it blasted on the inside and painted with epoxy primer. Ill hopefully get some new AMD floors for the car next week. Im trying to get all the stuff done that I know will be included in the final plans. Its all this other stuff that is up in the air rite now that I want to figure out and get the parts for.

My biggest problem rite now is that I cannot decide what to do for the front end. I know it will not be stock and that is about it. I mite go the safe route with the Hotchkis upper control arms, sway bars and what ever else they have for the car along with the XV stiffening setup. On the other end of the spectrum is something that I know will send a lot of you guys off the deep end. Im considering the possibility of putting the entire front end and frame of a Viper on it. I know, its extreme, but sounds like fun. Seeing the V10 '69 with the Viper IRS gave me the idea. It would give me an excellent platform with great geometry and sweet brakes and steering. But its just an idea that I am tossing around so we shall have to see how that one pans out...

[Mike DC]

As for the doors I agree about the safety issue.  But on the other hand, is this a caged car?  there's your doorbar right there.

And the 1990s GM F-bodies used entirely composite door shells in production.  They just had a single piece of rollbar-like tubing going horizontally across the inside of the 'glass doorframe.  Fiberglass or not, I'm sure the side-impact testing on that setup was tougher than the one our stock steel doors go through.   Our doors don't even have a beam across the inside at all.  

The roll-up window glass is a real b*tch though.  I see little way to package that inside a fiberglass door without ending up feeling like it wasn't worth the trouble. You might give the side rear-quarter windows some simple slider straps or something and eliminate the scissor mechanism (think: mid-60s factory A-990 racers, etc), but there's not much else you can do in that area.  




As for the dash, I'm not sure the challenger dash you're talking about would be any easier than just making a stock-type 2nd gen Charger dash out of fiberglass from scratch.  It would not be too diffferent from building a fiberglass center console, and car guys do that job at home on a regular basis.

You could also just get out the aluminum tubing & sheet stock and make it that way.





As for the front end, I would think hard about just putting in an AlterKtion K-frame and calling it a day.  It's not as unique as a major custom job but it's probably money very well spent.  

Beyond that, I would do the XV aluminum K-frame deal before I chopped in a Viper front end.  It's at least as well thought out as the Viper one.

[R2]

Have you thought about some K frame modifications ?
I had some stuff done,,,,and it turned out great....... lost about 40 lbs off the front end of the car,,,gained LOTS of clearance,,,,