What motor to build?

[Sixt8Chrgr]

I need some suggestions from the pros:

My car currently is a 68 auto with a 383-4 PS, PB, A/C 3.23 sure grip. The car runs fine, but is not tire burner that I want. The motor is not a number motor but is a 68 383 motor. Tranny and rear end are numbers.

I am considering building a 512 stroker motor from a 75 440 long block that I have, but I want to keep my PS, PB, stock A/C and my 3.23 rear gear. I want a good cruiser that will torch the rear tires on command, but want to be able to cruise down the interstate at 70 MPH like it does now. I also want to run my A/C when I want. Am I being unrealistic on the 512? Should I just build a stock 440 - 375 with a few bells and whistles? Or should I tweak the 383-4? The 512 stroker kit sounds like a great way to go.

Thanks in advance.

Lawrence

[Charger-Bodie]

You could get a 400 block and build a low deck stroker.....Then you wouldnt need to worry about brackets pullies or any of that.

[tan top]

yeah good plan , low deck stroker    paint it turquoise & stick a 383 pie tin  on   , no one will know untill you nail the gas 

[Chatt69chgr]

I'm thinking that a 493 stroker built from a 440 block would be a good bet.  You said you had a 440 long block.  What would you reuse?  Not the crank.  Probably not the rods.  Not the pistons.  Not the cam.  And probably not the heads.  Intake no good.  You will probably use headers so forget the exhaust manifolds.  400 engines are a dime a dozen so the cost of the block is minimal.  To build a 451, you will need mostly the same stuff as the 440 build.  AR Engineering has a real good tech article on the 451.  It makes it sound like a interesting engine to build.  Those two builds sound like they would be good ones to examine.  I guess you would end up with more cubic inches with the 440 build and they say there is no replacement for displacement.  Old Chargers are heavy so you need lots of torque to get them moving and you get that with cubic inches.  I'd like to hear which way you go and particularly like to hear about a 451 buildup if you go that route-----technical issues, parts availability, costs, etc.  The 440 to 493 buildup has been covered pretty extensively.

[Dans 68]

I'd go with a 471 stroker from a 400. That is my plan for the immediate future.   

Dan

[Hot_Rodder]

Well, for my  , I would say that since you have both the 383 and the 440, I would do one of two things, first are both motors standard bore? Either motor can be built to run quite well. You could go with the old saying (and I agree with it) "there's no replacement for displacement" so... This would say run the 440 block. As you probably know already, there are numerous kit's out on the market for these blocks. If you want the car to look a little bit more original, then I'd say run the 383, there are some stroker kits for this block too. Next option, you could build on what you already have... I'm not sure what all your 383 has in it, as far as internal parts and such, but a 383 can be made into a real screamer and still do fine on the highway, though same goes for the 440. Generally since the 440 has the longer stroke, it will generally have the better torque numbers (though the reality of this is based on how each motor is built). Since you made no mention of a 400 (unless I missed something) I wouldn't worry about trying to get one, save the money of buying one and put it into what you have now. Another thing, though the 383 and 440 do have parts that will interchange, not all will, at least not without some modification or additional parts. I couldn't possibly tell you what to run, it's your car, but I do ask this question, do you want something that looks a little more original, or are you not worried about the looks of it? Answer that question and go from there.
Also, as you know, you can use the 383 and slap on a nice set of worked factory heads, along with some other stuff, have a stroker kit in it, and still keep it "looking" somewhat factory... I've seen a few cars like this...

[Sixt8Chrgr]

Guys thanks for the comments.

I am definitely going to either use the 383 or the 440. I dont want to spend more money on blocks when I have two right now.

The bore question is a good one. The 383 in the car now I am assuming is either standard or .030 just guessing though. The 440 is at least .030 because it is freshly rebuilt. I bought it off of a guy that needed money but had it rebuilt a few years ago. This guy was not really a car guy and did not know much about the motor. I can see that the cylinders are freshly honed and the pistons are new, but the rods and the heads look original. The cast crank is still in the motor which will have to go. I don't know what cam is in the 440 either. The guy just had no idea of what he had?

I do want to keep the car as stock looking as possible. I realize if I go the 440 route I give some of that up but I can paint the motor turquiose and give it a sleeper look.

But can I build a 512 stroker have my accessories and run the 3.23 gear and still get the full effect of the 512? Or do I need a big cam and 3.91 gears to ring out all the power of the 512? I guess it just depends on the cam? I do want my accessories to run like they do now.

Your point about taking the heads and getting them worked along with a good set of headers and carb will go along way on the 383. Right now I am just running a set of stock manifolds, stock intake manifold and an edelbrock carb. I am guessing it is a 650 cfm. Not alot to this carb.

Good ideas thanks for the input.

I guess in summary what I want is a stock looking car that will smoke the tires and cruise down the interstate at 70 MPH with the factory Air on. Sounds like I need to buy a new Challenger, huh

Again thanks for the input.

[tan top]

 


http://www.speedomotive.com/ps-494-14-mopar-383-to-484cid-all-forged-stroker-kit.aspx

[Rolling_Thunder]

Customer of mine is going through the same debate...  We have settled on a stroked 383 (he already has the 383 block)    might be a little low on the displacement but boost cured that   

[Cooter]

Build the 512 C.I. motor...You WIL NOT be disappointed...Build the engine for mainly torque and the HP will follow...If you made 1 HP PEr C.I. that's 512...Most strokers are at least 11/4-1 1/2 HP per C.I.

You don't need a huge cam and deep gears when you have Cubic inches....

[Hot_Rodder]

Let me start off by saying I hate Firefox (web browser), any time I open a new tab, in the original tab any and everything that I've typed, is gone. Now I get to retype everything, maybe I can some it up a little bit better...
As I had said;
I agree with Cooter, with the 512 you will have enough overall power to where you probably want even notice that you have 3.23 gears in the back. I've been trying to work on a 505 (maybe 493 just depends on the kit) that should push 650 horse power and 650 ft/lbs torque but just for performance sake (probably want be on the highway at all) a set of 3.91 gears and a new locker from Detroit. Of course, there is more to the build that just that, bunch of bracing for one thing.... As far as the cam, you will need to make a decision rather quickly on this matter, do you want hyd or mechanical? Flat tappet or roller? Once you've figured this out, then you get in touch with someone who grinds cams, tell them what you have, and what you want it to do, they should be able to take it from there. You shouldn't be disappointed with a 512 kit.
On the other hand, the 383 can be made into a real screamer. Even in factory form... If you want to do a stroker motor out of the 383, then it too can be made into something quite mean. As for the kits, I'm somewhat familiar with the 383 stroker kits, but I can' remember the clearance issues between the 3.75" stroke cranks, versus the 4.15" stroker cranks and the 4.2" stroker cranks. Being as that is, I would rather place it a little more safe and say the 383 to 438 kit, this one uses the 3.7" crank with a 6.76" connecting rod. It will still rev nicely and turn out a bunch of power. On the other hand, if the 4.15" crank will fit with no clearance issues, then why stop at the 3.75" stroke crank?
One thing to remember, most people (when it comes to cars at least) like to go to a lower (or numerically higher) gear ratio to improve off the line power, but this can hurt the top end power. The higher the speed of the car, the more rpm's are being turned (for those who don't know this already that is). With the stroker kits, you are adding a longer stroker, thus rendering (or at least should) more torque. If you have more torque in the bottom end, you will have more off the line power, and therefor making it seem like you have a "steeper" gear in the back.... This is why I was saying I wouldn't worry about the 3.23's. The other factor in this is (assuming that the transmission gear ratio is factory) tire/wheel size...
Now as for your question of 383 or 440. Well, if you want to go the stroker route, I'd say the 440 b/c the machine work is already done. The 383 you'd probably have to send it to the machine shop. This is one area that you could save some money.If you want to keep it closer to #'s matching, the 383 (though it's not the original motor, it is a 383). If you aren't worried about keeping it that close, I'd say the 440. Keep in mind, a 440 dist will fit a 383 with a spacer, but a 383 dist want fit a 440. I 383 intake will fit a 440 with spacers, but a 440 intake want fit a 383... This is one of many things that I was saying about interchangeability when it comes to these motors... The headers just want look factory no matter how you cut it... Intakes, just don't know where to start there, but if you go the 440 route, though these are a little on the expensive side of things, I would recommend the Indy dual plane intake. I need to get one that has max wedge ports to match up with my heads that I have.
As for the Challengers, well, I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of the new Hurst model's, but I'd like to have one that has the 6 speed manual and having a supercharger on it... I think that would be a little bit of fun... Course, originally it would have to be the SRT8 model..... Think the blue with the black stripes looks a little bit interesting my own self...

[firefighter3931]

Check out Dean's 383 stroker build. 

Excellent power in a nice compact package with lots of underhood clearance. 


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,46587.0.html



Ron

[Sixt8Chrgr]

Check out Dean's 383 stroker build. 

Excellent power in a nice compact package with lots of underhood clearance. 


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,46587.0.html



Ron

Ron,

With this build do I need such a large carb? I am assuming the 950 is 950 CFM? Also can I use the stock torque converter that is in my 727? I am assuming it is the one that came with the 383-4.
What about my accessories? with this build can I still run the PS, PB, Air?

Thanks,

[Scaregrabber]

I would build a 499-512 incher, install 2.94 or 2.76 gears in the back so it's more freeway friendly and have some fun. I've run 426 Hemi's since 1980, my last hemi is stroked to 472 and it just makes the package more streetable. The extra inches gives you torque where you need it on the street and the larger engine size gives you even more topend power. Stroker is the way to go, especially in a heavy car like a Charger.

Sheldon

[firefighter3931]

Check out Dean's 383 stroker build. 

Excellent power in a nice compact package with lots of underhood clearance. 


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,46587.0.html



Ron

Ron,

With this build do I need such a large carb? I am assuming the 950 is 950 CFM? Also can I use the stock torque converter that is in my 727? I am assuming it is the one that came with the 383-4.
What about my accessories? with this build can I still run the PS, PB, Air?

Thanks,

The cam profile determines the powerband....it's easy to tone it down and make it more user friendly. If you were wanting to use the power acessories and A/C the cam would be different from Deans and the engine won't make as much peak power...it's a compromise. That being said it would still make plenty....more than you can possibly hook up on a street tire. 

The carb could be downsized to an 850cfm w/o any issues. The TQ converter should be upgraded to handle the additional power. A stock 383 converter was never designed for 550+ ftlbs of tire twisting torque. 

I would build a 499-512 incher, install 2.94 or 2.76 gears in the back so it's more freeway friendly and have some fun. I've run 426 Hemi's since 1980, my last hemi is stroked to 472 and it just makes the package more streetable. The extra inches gives you torque where you need it on the street and the larger engine size gives you even more topend power. Stroker is the way to go, especially in a heavy car like a Charger.

Sheldon

Sheldon is right on the money...strokers make lots of power and increased torque where you need it. No need to wind the crap out of an engine when you don't have to. Cubic inches is your friend ! 


Ron

[Sixt8Chrgr]

Ron what do you mean under hood clearance? The 440 stroker is no taller than the 383 is it? I know the 440 is wider than the 383. Are you referring to putting a medium high rise intake on the motor with a spacer which could create space issues?

Would it make sense to put a slightly hotter cam in the motor than the stock 440-375 cam? I would like to have a nice lopey idle, but still have enough vacuum to run my accessories and A/C along with good street manners.

I drive my old cars to work, meetings etc. So I need something that is somewhat tame.

Thanks again!

[Hot_Rodder]

The deck height of the 440 (RB) is taller than the 383 (B) decks.... I can't remember how much taller, bu they are taller, hence the R (Raised) in RB (Raised Block) versus the B for the 383, 400, and smaller motors (under 383 cubes). The 413, 426 both wedge and Hemi, and the 440 are the RB motors for the taller deck heights. As for carb's, the ProForm and QFT's seem to be the more higher recommended carbs. I don't see why an 850 would be a problem.

[firefighter3931]

Ron what do you mean under hood clearance? The 440 stroker is no taller than the 383 is it? I know the 440 is wider than the 383. Are you referring to putting a medium high rise intake on the motor with a spacer which could create space issues?

The lowdeck 383/400 is about an inch shorter than the 440 raised deck engine. This helps with hood clearance unless you plan to run a hood scoop. Most guys prefer to keep it tucked under the stock hood to keep it in "Stealth Mode" 

Would it make sense to put a slightly hotter cam in the motor than the stock 440-375 cam? I would like to have a nice lopey idle, but still have enough vacuum to run my accessories and A/C along with good street manners.

I drive my old cars to work, meetings etc. So I need something that is somewhat tame.

Thanks again!

The stock cam would be waaaay small for a 500in build....the long stroke devours cam duration.  The cam for something like this would be quite agressive in a smaller displacement build but will be relatively tame in the big cube build. It will still sound good but not like a pro-stock car. 



Ron

[Sixt8Chrgr]

I would definitely want to run the stock hood.

When you mention smaller displacement, I am assuming you are referring to the 383 stroker scenario which would have the more aggressive cam profile. In this application do you think I would still have enough vacuum to run the accessories? And would this allow for the stock A/C to still run efficiently?

The 512 application would have a tamer cam but still have a nice lope, if I understand correctly. And this bigger cube motor would run on pump gas as the smaller cube option. Seems like the larger cube option is the way I am leaning. It probably will cost me more money but in the long run I think I will be happier with the bigger motor.

Thanks

[Sixt8Chrgr]

Would either of these Cams work well if I built a 512 and wanted the car to have good street ability?

XE274H
XE268H

Comp Cams recommended either of these with a 9.5 CR. the 268H Cam would be best for the vacuum accessories. If I raised the CR to 10:1 the 274 vacuum issue is minimized. I think that is what he said.

Your comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

[firefighter3931]

Both of those cam choices will be small in a 500in build. The comments made by the cam companies pertain to a stock displacement type build....the increased stroke changes everything. 

Here is a build you should look at. Mike is very happy with the results. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html



Ron

[Sixt8Chrgr]

Ron,

Mike's engine sounds exactly what I am looking for thank you for the info. I do have one question, the stockish idle...is that an idle that has more lope or less lope than a sock 440? I want a good 60's vintage lope. Otherwise that motor sounds dead on what I am looking for. Good street ability and awesome power.

Thanks,

Lawrence

[firefighter3931]

Mike's motor has a bit of lope but nothing radical...it won't be mistaken for "stock" 




Ron

[Sixt8Chrgr]

thanks