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Daytona- Clone or real deal opinion.

Started by Nassau1969, November 14, 2009, 12:19:49 AM

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Nassau1969

Daytona- Clone or real how do you feel. I have an expensive problem I would like to buy a 1969 Daytona in the near future. I see what there going for and I have a goal to get there with in a year or 2. Now that's without selling my house and starving my self. My problem is I'm a very picky person. I want a T5 copper metallic or a T7 Dark Bronze Metallic. These colors are extremely rare & hard to find in a Daytona. And to top it off I prefer a 4 spd.  I don't like to settle on a color or options I don't really want. So I thought about the clone thing back a forth and making the one I want to my standards and do it right & not skimp on anything. I really would love to have the real deal a Factory car. Then I say I can do one the way I want it done, but will I be happy looking at the Vin#.

Ghoste

If you can afford the real thing then why not go for it?  I would have to ask this too though, do you plan to drive the car a lot and in what way?

Nassau1969

I plan on using it as much as I can on nice days/nights because you only live once. Mopars are made to be enjoyed and seen by everyone. I feel these cars were made to be driven. I don't want a car that's going to be garage art make people come to my house to see a car sitting in my garage. I love when I see these cars on the road.

Ghoste

Depending on how much a real one ends up costing you then, you might find it easier putting miles on a clone. (I'm thinking about accident risk as much as anything when I say that)

A383Wing


nakita7

Quote from: Nassau1969 on November 14, 2009, 12:27:10 AM
I plan on using it as much as I can on nice days/nights because you only live once. Mopars are made to be enjoyed and seen by everyone.

Nice seeing someone who understands what a vehicle is for.

Nassau1969

A383Wing Very nice car, only $25K great job for what you have into it, did you do most of it your self..

Rolling_Thunder

I would go the clone route...     have some fun with it - why settle for a 4-speed ?  go with a 5-speed and a warmed up big block or a hemi - paint it the color you want, put the interior you want in it, and set it up suspension wise how YOU want...        

If I was going to spend big $$$ on a car I would want a car that handles, accelerates, stops, and corners better than anything from the 60s
1968 Dodge Charger - 6.1L Hemi / 6-speed / 3.55 Sure Grip

2013 Dodge Challenger R/T - 5.7L Hemi / 6-speed / 3.73 Limited Slip

1964 Dodge Polara 500 - 440 / 4-speed / 3.91 Sure Grip

1973 Dodge Challenger Rallye - 340 / A-518 / 3.23 Sure Grip

Nassau1969

 
Thanks Rolling_Thunder,
The replies I'm getting are making me anxious to get it going. I could have it ready in a year if I do the clone. And I would probably do a Hemi if I go clone.



A383Wing

Quote from: Nassau1969 on November 14, 2009, 12:37:50 AM
A383Wing Very nice car, only $25K great job for what you have into it, did you do most of it your self..

The wife & I did everything ourselves except paint...I can't do that...

Found car in wrecking yard...had it completely gutted...took us just under 3 years to complete by ourselves...took me a week to get the nosecone and headlights adjusted

Cost also included rebuilding engine


Nassau1969

A383Wing,
I would send the whole body out. I would do some work but not much. I want everything to work on the car head light doors. Where did you get the parts Janko. I no I will not find the colors I'm looking for so I guess clone is the way to go. I would never change the color on a real one unless I paid a crazy low price on it.

A383Wing

Quote from: Nassau1969 on November 14, 2009, 12:50:08 AM
A383Wing,
I would send the whole body out and. I would do some work but not much. I want everything to work on the car. Where did you get the parts Janko.

Rear wing is actual NASCAR wing from real race car....everything else is 'glass from Janak....was not quality parts when we did car back in the mid 90's....poor quality & fit....maybe his stuff is better now, but there are better steel pieces out there to be had by different vendors

Nassau1969

I'm going to go with the best parts I can if I go that route. It looks like you made it all work well.

A383Wing

Quote from: Nassau1969 on November 14, 2009, 12:54:23 AM
I'm going to go with the best parts I can if I go that route. It looks like you made it all work well.

Everything works....of the 10 cars we got...it's the most comfortable....2 weeks after we finished it, we drove from Seattle area to Talladega for the reunion in '99.....not one problem....

Charger-Bodie

Im building a Daytona clone right now....Hemi ,4 speed,and a Dana60. The only parts on it that will be fiberglass are the parts that are supposed to be fiberglass(allthough it will have a vega plug which isnt quite the same as a real one).....If I had a lot of money Id have some real ones BUT id still have a clone to get out and really enjoy. I can honestly say that with my current situation That id rater have a clone than a real one. .....If I had more money would that be different? Maybe.
68 Charger R/t white with black v/t and red tailstripe. 440 4 speed ,black interior
68 383 auto with a/c and power windows. Now 440 4 speed jj1 gold black interior .
My Charger is a hybrid car, it burns gas and rubber............

hotrod98

If you go with the best parts including a steel nose, you're looking at around 13K in parts plus the cost of the 70 Charger front sheet metal. If you farm it out, the labor for the conversion and paint will run around 20K minimum. If you use a nice donor car that already has the engine and trans that you want, runs and drives fine and doesn't need additional body work, you're looking at a total build cost of around 50-55K. More if you're having to restore the car in the process.
Seems like a decent real Daytona would run you three times that at least.
I really don't think finding a used Daytona clone and re-restoring it will save you any money in the long run since 99% of the clones have fiberglass noses.
If you plan to drive the car a lot, you might consider going with a late model hemi and a five speed setup. Then you get reliability, drivablity and decent fuel mileage as a bonus. A new late model 6.1/five speed setup will run you 15K. About twice as much as a 440/4-speed setup.
You're only limited by your imagination.


Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.
Charles Addams

Aero426

Quote from: Nassau1969 on November 14, 2009, 12:19:49 AM
Daytona- Clone or real how do you feel. I have an expensive problem I would like to buy a 1969 Daytona in the near future. I see what there going for and I have a goal to get there with in a year or 2. Now that's without selling my house and starving my self. My problem is I'm a very picky person. I want a T5 copper metallic or a FK5 color. These colors are extremely rare & hard to find in a Daytona. And to top it off I prefer a 4 spd.  I don't like to settle on a color or options I don't really want. So I thought about the clone thing back a forth and making the one I want to my standards and do it right & not skimp on anything. I really would love to have the real deal a Factory car. Then I say I can do one the way I want it done, but will I be happy looking at the Vin#.

Unless you have deep pockets and time to wait, the words, "I don't like to settle" do not go well with buying a Daytona.   The problem is there are not many cars to go around.  Not only do you desire the harder to find 4-speed, you want one in a difficult color.  T5 is hard enough.  FK5 is an error Superbird color only.  

By even raising the VIN question, it sounds like it would matter to you.  

If you have some cash to spend, rather than go the clone route,  why not buy the best Daytona you can afford regardless of options and trade up later.   Can't swing the Daytona?  There's no shame in a Superbird.   The point is, the Aero Car game can be pursued in steps, trading up along the way.  

Nassau1969

Mistake on my end, correction ( T7 Dark Bronze Metallic ) I have seen a T5 for sale with a auto with white wing. I would buy an auto. The price is out of reach. Need another 1 1/2 to 2 yrs. I may do a clone. It seem everyone is happy with theres.

Aero426

Quote from: Nassau1969 on November 14, 2009, 10:17:47 AM
Mistake on my end, correction ( T7 Dark Bronze Metallic ) I have seen a T5 for sale with a auto with white wing. I would buy an auto. The price is out of reach. Need another 1 1/2 to 2 yrs. I may do a clone. It seem everyone is happy with theres.

With prices coming down on factory built wing cars in general,  unless you can do everything yourself,  the clone makes less sense.   Clones have not gotten cheaper to build nor have parts prices come down.    If you are willing spend what it will take (real dollars) to get a well built clone, why not spend a little more and get a real no-excuses wing car?  

hotrod98

Buy a real Daytona at the best deal possible. Change the tranny if necessary and paint it whatever color pleases you. It can always be returned back to original if you decide to sell. I think you could possibly pull this off for around 150-170K.
However, unless I'm living in a dream world, I haven't seen any good deals on nice used Daytonas. The guys that own Daytonas usually aren't desperate enough to sell them at a loss. They just wait out the economy.
The only decent deals that I've seen on Daytonas are the ones that need total rebuilding and have lots of original parts missing. Now that gets expensive in a hurry.


Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.
Charles Addams

Nassau1969

I seen a yellow 4 spd for sale with a black stripe for $100K in very good shape NOM.

Charger-Bodie

I will have about 60k in my Hemi 4 speed Daytona clone. I will be rotiserie over restored . I will not have labor though as I am doing it all myself other than a few things.

The thing about it that it will be just how I build it for myself, not ant less or more.
68 Charger R/t white with black v/t and red tailstripe. 440 4 speed ,black interior
68 383 auto with a/c and power windows. Now 440 4 speed jj1 gold black interior .
My Charger is a hybrid car, it burns gas and rubber............

200MPH

Charger

A383Wing

Quote from: 200MPH on November 14, 2009, 02:34:05 PM
Clone :2thumbs:

Hey 200MPH...here is the plate we had on our purple car

Nassau1969

There was a person some where on this forum that was selling aluminum Daytona wings. He custom makes them, he makes a few a year, Does anyone no his info I cant seem to find it now.

billssuperbird


moparstuart

Quote from: Nassau1969 on November 14, 2009, 04:32:34 PM
There was a person some where on this forum that was selling aluminum Daytona wings. He custom makes them, he makes a few a year, Does anyone no his info I can seem to find it now.
daytona guy  dane       http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62132.0.html
GO SELL CRAZY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE ARE ALL STOCKED UP HERE

Charger-Bodie

Quote from: moparstuart on November 14, 2009, 04:55:16 PM
Quote from: Nassau1969 on November 14, 2009, 04:32:34 PM
There was a person some where on this forum that was selling aluminum Daytona wings. He custom makes them, he makes a few a year, Does anyone no his info I can seem to find it now.
daytona guy  dane       http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62132.0.html

Yep. Mine gets shipped Monday from Dane.
68 Charger R/t white with black v/t and red tailstripe. 440 4 speed ,black interior
68 383 auto with a/c and power windows. Now 440 4 speed jj1 gold black interior .
My Charger is a hybrid car, it burns gas and rubber............

Bug shield C500

You know when you think about it..............ALL Daytona's are Clones aren't they ::). since they are left the factory as Charger R/T's or Charger R/T SE. then went to a aftermarket company (creative industry's). Got torn apart, thrown back together and did they get new Vin's and fender tags there? I say start with a R/T, buy steel parts and aluminum wings and built the way you would have ordered it from the factory. Then you could say to your self I have one the the early Dayton's that didn't have xx in the vin number.  :2thumbs:

Wait, then that makes my C500 a clone....
1969 charger 500 bugshield addition
1970 cuda 446-6 hole in the hood
1973 charger se 400
1973 sportman van 12 passanger (wife hates this one)

A383Wing

Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 14, 2009, 07:45:48 PM

Wait, then that makes my C500 a clone....

:haha:

Sorry, had to do it...

Bryan  (clone owner)  :D

hemigeno

Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 14, 2009, 07:45:48 PM
You know when you think about it..............ALL Daytona's are Clones aren't they ::). since they are left the factory as Charger R/T's or Charger R/T SE. then went to a aftermarket company (creative industry's). Got torn apart, thrown back together and did they get new Vin's and fender tags there? I say start with a R/T, buy steel parts and aluminum wings and built the way you would have ordered it from the factory. Then you could say to your self I have one the the early Dayton's that didn't have xx in the vin number.  :2thumbs:

Wait, then that makes my C500 a clone....

Not exactly...

I don't know where or when the urban legend got started, but Daytonas (or '69 Charger 500's for that matter) did NOT leave the factory as a Charger R/T, nor were they given a different VIN at Creative Industries.  I'm ignoring the one exception to that rule for now, but that's a whole 'nother story. 

These cars were purpose-built as Daytonas, had their XX29 VIN assigned at Hamtramck (with a few Charger 500 exceptions also), had "special" Vehicle Order Numbers, but were indeed converted by Creative Industies under a factory-sanctioned contract. 

Ghoste

Besides, in order to be a "clone", there has to be an original so that you have something to "clone" from.  :icon_smile_wink:

41husk

I would love to have a real wing car, I prefer the profile of the Daytona, I think the charger lines are the greatest of any car!  I prefer, how ever the graphics of the Super Bird.  In this Economy, a decent real Bird would go for 80-200k a real Daytona 90-200+K, a great deal for Mopar dreamers.  I love to drive my cars.  I go to the show, and park in the lot.  I take both chargers and the convertible Challenger to the store, school, church, and Family functions. I would say all three together are not worth the top value of a wing car.  That would make it very tough for me to drive like I want.  That being said, I truly prefer a clone.  That being said, the clone I am getting will cost more than any car I have ever purchased, new or classic, and I feel it is a great deal.  I hope that doesn't effect the way I intend to drive it, knowing that when the economy stabalizes, both real and clone wing car  values will again sky rocket.
1969 Dodge Charger 500 440/727
1970 Challenger convertible 340/727
1970 Plymouth Duster FM3
1974 Dodge Dart /6/904
1983 Plymouth Scamp GT 2.2 Auto
1950 Dodge Pilot house pick up

Bug shield C500

Quote from: hemigeno on November 14, 2009, 08:06:23 PM
Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 14, 2009, 07:45:48 PM
You know when you think about it..............ALL Daytona's are Clones aren't they ::). since they are left the factory as Charger R/T's or Charger R/T SE. then went to a aftermarket company (creative industry's). Got torn apart, thrown back together and did they get new Vin's and fender tags there? I say start with a R/T, buy steel parts and aluminum wings and built the way you would have ordered it from the factory. Then you could say to your self I have one the the early Dayton's that didn't have xx in the vin number.  :2thumbs:

Wait, then that makes my C500 a clone....

Not exactly...

I don't know where or when the urban legend got started, but Daytonas (or '69 Charger 500's for that matter) did NOT leave the factory as a Charger R/T, nor were they given a different VIN at Creative Industries.  I'm ignoring the one exception to that rule for now, but that's a whole 'nother story. 

These cars were purpose-built as Daytonas, had their XX29 VIN assigned at Hamtramck (with a few Charger 500 exceptions also), had "special" Vehicle Order Numbers, but were indeed converted by Creative Industies under a factory-sanctioned contract. 
:lol: Well I would think the urban legend came from the Order book in a way :icon_smile_big:. I don't believe you could have ordered a 69 charger with a 440 or Hemi without it being a R/T or R/T SE. And you could not order a RT with anything less then a 440 or Hemi. So since Daytona's and Charger 500s only came with 440's or hemi's they need a full R/T spec build with a couple of deleted emblems to build the needed car for race history. Also how do we explain the 7-12 Daytona SE's and charger 500 SE's. I don't think they would have wasted their time creating a spec for a separate Daytona se model as well. From an engineering stand point I could see them putting the XX on the vin to tell the plant to send this R/T to "C.I". Since the plant did nothing special to the cars before they left it was probably the easiest way to make that happen. Did the Daytona's to be, leave the factory with a standard charger nose and rear glass? 
1969 charger 500 bugshield addition
1970 cuda 446-6 hole in the hood
1973 charger se 400
1973 sportman van 12 passanger (wife hates this one)

Nassau1969

I believe a few cars made it out the door as proto types that were not R/T's and had Hemi's and 440's. I saw a 1970 Charger 500 for sale and it had a vin # I believe in the first 00005 in 1970 and it was a R code for Hemi and was being sold as a Hemi and was a basket case with documentation and going for $15,000 less motor and trans & that was 15 yrs ago and needing a total resto. And if you look on the cover of a Chilton's manual and some other Mopar old books there is a Copper 1969 Charger White top with no R/T emblems just the regular one and a Hemi badge on the door.

69bronzeT5

I'd like to build one someday to my specs. However, if I can afford it one day, I'll get the real deal. Bryan, you got any before pictures of your Daytona?
Feature Editor for Mopar Connection Magazine
http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/



1969 Charger: T5 Copper 383 Automatic
1970 Challenger R/T: FC7 Plum Crazy 440 Automatic
1970 GTO: Black 400 Ram Air III 4-Speed
1971 Charger Super Bee: GY3 Citron Yella 440 4-Speed
1972 Charger: FE5 Red 360 Automatic
1973 Charger Rallye: FY1 Top Banana 440 Automatic
1973 Plymouth Road Runner: FE5 Red 440 Automatic
1973 Plymouth Duster: FC7 Plum Crazy 318 Automatic

A383Wing

Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on November 15, 2009, 06:05:05 PM
I'd like to build one someday to my specs. However, if I can afford it one day, I'll get the real deal. Bryan, you got any before pictures of your Daytona?

Yea...I got 2..




hotrod98

It's amazing how different the car looks now compared to before. :2thumbs:


Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.
Charles Addams

200MPH

Charger

69bronzeT5

Quote from: A383Wing on November 15, 2009, 06:16:54 PM
Quote from: 69bronzeT5 on November 15, 2009, 06:05:05 PM
I'd like to build one someday to my specs. However, if I can afford it one day, I'll get the real deal. Bryan, you got any before pictures of your Daytona?

Yea...I got 2..





I liked it better before! :nana: :smilielol: :D :icon_smile_big:
Feature Editor for Mopar Connection Magazine
http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/



1969 Charger: T5 Copper 383 Automatic
1970 Challenger R/T: FC7 Plum Crazy 440 Automatic
1970 GTO: Black 400 Ram Air III 4-Speed
1971 Charger Super Bee: GY3 Citron Yella 440 4-Speed
1972 Charger: FE5 Red 360 Automatic
1973 Charger Rallye: FY1 Top Banana 440 Automatic
1973 Plymouth Road Runner: FE5 Red 440 Automatic
1973 Plymouth Duster: FC7 Plum Crazy 318 Automatic

hemigeno

Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
:lol: Well I would think the urban legend came from the Order book in a way :icon_smile_big:. I don't believe you could have ordered a 69 charger with a 440 or Hemi without it being a R/T or R/T SE. And you could not order a RT with anything less then a 440 or Hemi.

Nassau1969 has it exactly right - the 1969 Charger Order Form distinctly allowed a person to order a 426 Hemi-powered non-R/T Charger (i.e. XP base model Charger).  The bronze press-release car is the most widely-known of that type, but there was recently a blue(?) XP HemiCharger's fender tag that floated across eBay in the past 6 months.  These are not mythical cars.

My GUESS is that an XP HemiCharger was equipped with all the same mechanical equipment as an R/T (e.g. torsion bars, shocks, springs), but it was not badged as an R/T.  We won't be able to confirm that guess until a Broadcast Sheet for one of these cars is found.


Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
So since Daytona's and Charger 500s only came with 440's or hemi's they need a full R/T spec build with a couple of deleted emblems to build the needed car for race history.

Yes and no.  I'll agree that the C500s and Daytonas had all the HP equipment normally spec'd with a 440 or Hemi engine, but that does NOT make them an R/T.  Every R/T had an XS VIN number, and all but a few oddball examples of C500s had an XX VIN.  It's a matter of semantics, of course - but I personally do not consider the XX cars to be R/Ts.  Another related myth is way more important to correct than this one... the myth that Charger R/T's were randomly pulled off the line and chosen to be converted into a Daytona.  That one is definitely false.

We can agree that from a mechanical equipment standpoint, there are no differences between a C500/Daytona and an R/T.  However, the C500/Daytona were both considered to be different models just like a XP29J9___ base HemiCharger was different than an R/T.  Using your example of the 1969 Dealer Data Book, the Charger500 has its own section right after the Charger & C-R/T section (Daytona's weren't built until late in the model year and a revised Data Book section was never created).  Plus, the Confidential Price Bulletin handled the XP base Charger, XS Charger R/T, XX Charger500 and XX Charger Daytona all as separate models.  The C500 and Daytona packages were NOT priced as "added equipment", they each had their own base price - to which any optional equipment spec'd was added.  They were considered from Day 1 to be a distinct car model.


Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
Also how do we explain the 7-12 Daytona SE's and charger 500 SE's. I don't think they would have wasted their time creating a spec for a separate Daytona se model as well.

The A47 SE package was not a model unto itself.  It was merely a collection of options (some only available in the SE package) added to an XP/XS/XX Charger.  It did not bump the car into a separate or distinct model classification - or at least Chrysler never considered them to be such.  That's the way the Data Book and Price Bulletins both handled this.  Plus, you cannot tell whether a car was an SE or not by the VIN - which to me is important.


Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
From an engineering stand point I could see them putting the XX on the vin to tell the plant to send this R/T to "C.I". Since the plant did nothing special to the cars before they left it was probably the easiest way to make that happen.

We're both guessing here, but I don't think they needed an XX VIN number to know which cars to ship to Creative Industries for conversion.  VIN's/VON's were used to send a specific car, which was built to a specific order, to a specific dealership.  It should not have been a big trick to route a car to Creative Industries with information already in the system.  Plus, creating a separate VIN classification had to have opened up another batch of problems for Chrysler from a bookkeeping standpoint.  IMHO they had another purpose for the XX / model classification.


Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
Did the Daytona's to be, leave the factory with a standard charger nose and rear glass? 

The Daytonas left Hamtramck with nearly all of their 1969 Charger components.  The biggest (only?) omission was the grille assembly.  The reason they mostly completed assembling the car as a '69 Charger was almost certainly to make sure they could not be nailed by the Feds for building or shipping cars from the factory (even if it was just over to C.I., it was still off Chrysler's property and outside their immediate control/oversight) without all their safety equipment like headlights, bumpers, turn signals, side reflectors, etc.  The cars were also stored outside before conversion which meant they couldn't leave out the back glass, trim, or even the hood without leaving the car quite exposed (think Warranty).

Another guess on my part is that one of the reasons Superbirds were assembled at Clairepoint by Chrysler employees was to cut out this exact step in the process... meaning if the cars never left Chrysler property they could be partially built prior to conversion.  That saved on both labor and parts which was a much bigger deal for the 4x larger 'Bird project.


The crux of all my ramblings is this:

I personally feel the VIN establishes the model not the equipment package or specifications it contains.  Guess maybe I should have just stated that and shut up.   :P

NYCMille

Well... considering I just went through this I can safely say I build a clone again over a real one in a heartbeat. I'm a big fan of modifications and in all honesty I don't think I could bring myself to ever modify a real Daytona. Building a clone gives you the freedom to build whatever your vision may be. Want a pink one with purple interior... then go ahead build it. From a performance standpoint you'll be able to modify anything and everything you wish and build your vision of your perfect Daytona. I know I did and I wouldn't have had any other way.

 :2thumbs:

hotrod98

Do what I've done and buy a wingcar that someone has already modified the crap out of and no one will fault you for changing it just a little bit more.  ;D


Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.
Charles Addams

Bug shield C500

Quote from: hemigeno on November 16, 2009, 09:58:54 AM
Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
:lol: Well I would think the urban legend came from the Order book in a way :icon_smile_big:. I don't believe you could have ordered a 69 charger with a 440 or Hemi without it being a R/T or R/T SE. And you could not order a RT with anything less then a 440 or Hemi.

Nassau1969 has it exactly right - the 1969 Charger Order Form distinctly allowed a person to order a 426 Hemi-powered non-R/T Charger (i.e. XP base model Charger).  The bronze press-release car is the most widely-known of that type, but there was recently a blue(?) XP HemiCharger's fender tag that floated across eBay in the past 6 months.  These are not mythical cars.

My GUESS is that an XP HemiCharger was equipped with all the same mechanical equipment as an R/T (e.g. torsion bars, shocks, springs), but it was not badged as an R/T.  We won't be able to confirm that guess until a Broadcast Sheet for one of these cars is found.


Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
So since Daytona's and Charger 500s only came with 440's or hemi's they need a full R/T spec build with a couple of deleted emblems to build the needed car for race history.

Yes and no.  I'll agree that the C500s and Daytonas had all the HP equipment normally spec'd with a 440 or Hemi engine, but that does NOT make them an R/T.  Every R/T had an XS VIN number, and all but a few oddball examples of C500s had an XX VIN.  It's a matter of semantics, of course - but I personally do not consider the XX cars to be R/Ts.  Another related myth is way more important to correct than this one... the myth that Charger R/T's were randomly pulled off the line and chosen to be converted into a Daytona.  That one is definitely false.

We can agree that from a mechanical equipment standpoint, there are no differences between a C500/Daytona and an R/T.  However, the C500/Daytona were both considered to be different models just like a XP29J9___ base HemiCharger was different than an R/T.  Using your example of the 1969 Dealer Data Book, the Charger500 has its own section right after the Charger & C-R/T section (Daytona's weren't built until late in the model year and a revised Data Book section was never created).  Plus, the Confidential Price Bulletin handled the XP base Charger, XS Charger R/T, XX Charger500 and XX Charger Daytona all as separate models.  The C500 and Daytona packages were NOT priced as "added equipment", they each had their own base price - to which any optional equipment spec'd was added.  They were considered from Day 1 to be a distinct car model.


Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
Also how do we explain the 7-12 Daytona SE's and charger 500 SE's. I don't think they would have wasted their time creating a spec for a separate Daytona se model as well.

The A47 SE package was not a model unto itself.  It was merely a collection of options (some only available in the SE package) added to an XP/XS/XX Charger.  It did not bump the car into a separate or distinct model classification - or at least Chrysler never considered them to be such.  That's the way the Data Book and Price Bulletins both handled this.  Plus, you cannot tell whether a car was an SE or not by the VIN - which to me is important.


Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
From an engineering stand point I could see them putting the XX on the vin to tell the plant to send this R/T to "C.I". Since the plant did nothing special to the cars before they left it was probably the easiest way to make that happen.

We're both guessing here, but I don't think they needed an XX VIN number to know which cars to ship to Creative Industries for conversion.  VIN's/VON's were used to send a specific car, which was built to a specific order, to a specific dealership.  It should not have been a big trick to route a car to Creative Industries with information already in the system.  Plus, creating a separate VIN classification had to have opened up another batch of problems for Chrysler from a bookkeeping standpoint.  IMHO they had another purpose for the XX / model classification.


Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 15, 2009, 12:44:28 AM
Did the Daytona's to be, leave the factory with a standard charger nose and rear glass? 

The Daytonas left Hamtramck with nearly all of their 1969 Charger components.  The biggest (only?) omission was the grille assembly.  The reason they mostly completed assembling the car as a '69 Charger was almost certainly to make sure they could not be nailed by the Feds for building or shipping cars from the factory (even if it was just over to C.I., it was still off Chrysler's property and outside their immediate control/oversight) without all their safety equipment like headlights, bumpers, turn signals, side reflectors, etc.  The cars were also stored outside before conversion which meant they couldn't leave out the back glass, trim, or even the hood without leaving the car quite exposed (think Warranty).

Another guess on my part is that one of the reasons Superbirds were assembled at Clairepoint by Chrysler employees was to cut out this exact step in the process... meaning if the cars never left Chrysler property they could be partially built prior to conversion.  That saved on both labor and parts which was a much bigger deal for the 4x larger 'Bird project.


The crux of all my ramblings is this:

I personally feel the VIN establishes the model not the equipment package or specifications it contains.  Guess maybe I should have just stated that and shut up.   :P
WOW :o I stand corrected. In all my years of mopar I have never seen a XP hemi or 440 69 charger. They must be the rarest of them all!. my new quest,I want one!!  :icon_smile_big:
1969 charger 500 bugshield addition
1970 cuda 446-6 hole in the hood
1973 charger se 400
1973 sportman van 12 passanger (wife hates this one)

hemigeno

Quote from: Bug shield C500 on November 17, 2009, 06:49:53 PM
Quote from: hemigeno on November 16, 2009, 09:58:54 AM
The crux of all my ramblings is this:

I personally feel the VIN establishes the model not the equipment package or specifications it contains.  Guess maybe I should have just stated that and shut up.   :P
WOW :o I stand corrected. In all my years of mopar I have never seen a XP hemi or 440 69 charger. They must be the rarest of them all!. my new quest,I want one!!  :icon_smile_big:


For the record, I haven't seen anything that says a non-R/T 440 Charger was possible.  It seems they made an exception for the Hemi and not the more mass-produced 440, even though that sounds counterintuitive.  

If you really want to own an XP HemiCharger, here's your chance:

Quote from: NOT Just 6T9 CHGR on August 24, 2009, 04:15:21 PM
This would be the second XP29J car I know of.....

The second one is a T5 tan one that Shafi Keisler owns

(PS its for sale.....PM me for details) ;)


:cheers:


Daytona Guy

Quote from: NYCMille on November 16, 2009, 05:59:44 PM
Well... considering I just went through this I can safely say I build a clone again over a real one in a heartbeat. I'm a big fan of modifications and in all honesty I don't think I could bring myself to ever modify a real Daytona. Building a clone gives you the freedom to build whatever your vision may be. Want a pink one with purple interior... then go ahead build it. From a performance standpoint you'll be able to modify anything and everything you wish and build your vision of your perfect Daytona. I know I did and I wouldn't have had any other way.

 :2thumbs:
Exactly - well said. Why I do the same.

Daytona Guy

Quote from: hotrod98 on November 16, 2009, 06:19:00 PM
Do what I've done and buy a wingcar that someone has already modified the crap out of and no one will fault you for changing it just a little bit more.  ;D

I love your Bird - Looks way better than the vinyl top Birds that cut the car in half - esthetically. IMHO

hotrod98

Thanks.
The only problem with leaving the vinyl top off is that most people think it's a clone. I'm considering putting one back on even though I think the car looks better without it. I'll make my final decision before carshow season.


Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly.
Charles Addams

PocketThunder

"Liberalism is a disease that attacks one's ability to understand logic. Extreme manifestations include the willingness to continue down a path of self destruction, based solely on a delusional belief in a failed ideology."

Charger-Bodie

68 Charger R/t white with black v/t and red tailstripe. 440 4 speed ,black interior
68 383 auto with a/c and power windows. Now 440 4 speed jj1 gold black interior .
My Charger is a hybrid car, it burns gas and rubber............

moparstuart

GO SELL CRAZY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE ARE ALL STOCKED UP HERE

A383Wing


nakita7


f6f6f6daytona

http://www.cars-on-line.com/30652.html    real one!!!!!!   looks like what you want....I think this sold at Barret-Jackson a few years ago..

moparstuart

Quote from: f6f6f6daytona on November 22, 2009, 10:02:41 AM
http://www.cars-on-line.com/30652.html    real one!!!!!!   looks like what you want....I think this sold at Barret-Jackson a few years ago..
I wonder if thats the former jim cordell ,formerly white car ?       came out of canada and took three cars to make it one ????

GO SELL CRAZY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE ARE ALL STOCKED UP HERE