Buddy Bakers Daytona

[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[69_500]

Well here is my two cents. There are a few people in this debate who have loved and tracked these aero cars for 40+ years now, and have dedicated countless hours to minute details on cars that were only ran for a short time, and then others who are related to someone who raced/built cars back then. Who's relatively surely have built hundreds of other cars since then and not spent the last 40 years documenting the ones they built in 69/70. And why would they, they had moved on to newer projects.

Does not matter to me what anyone thinks of the car. It's a Daytona, it is a Race chassis. Is it a race winning chassis, in my opinion yes. Was it a race winning chassis as a Daytona, in my opinion again, NO.

[moparnation74]

Thank you moparnation, for your sanity and common sense.

These guys apparently can't stand to be wrong so bad that they will go to great lengths to cling to any shred of their long-held misconceptions, rumors and innuendo; or simply turn a blind eye to the facts presented to them and fail to connect the dots that are oh-so-obvious to anyone who has an education.

Anytime!  Especially for a relative of a true race Legend.  I would love to sit back, share a beer and act as a sponge.  While hearing the stories your grandfather told!  Priceless!

In today's world there are a lot of "arm chair" quarterbacks, unfortunately.

[Redbird]

I have spent a fair amount of time studying the 1969-1971 auto shows. I am interested in them.

I have a lot of original pictures. My favorite 2 one off-albums were done for Ford Motor company for the 1969 show season.

I get that Chrysler and other manufacturers brought real race cars to auto shows.

Just talking Mopar, I have seen or have pictures of race cars in the 1969-1971 period from Sox & Martin, Bill Tanner, Buddy Baker, Don Grotheer, Pete Hamilton, and Bernilla's at Auto Shows.

For me, and to emphasize for me, not everyone has to agree. I can't get over that a Buddy Baker/Cotton Owens Daytona was both at the 1970 Chicago Auto Show and 1970 Daytona 500 at the same time. For me that says there were two cars.

I hope that people can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Many of us want to learn something about history here.

[70Sbird]

Thank you moparnation, for your sanity and common sense.

These guys apparently can't stand to be wrong so bad that they will go to great lengths to cling to any shred of their long-held misconceptions, rumors and innuendo; or simply turn a blind eye to the facts presented to them and fail to connect the dots that are oh-so-obvious to anyone who has an education.

[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

You are incorrect and talking above your knowledge. Let me correct you for the record:

Ray Nichels NEVER built cars for COG or Petty teams. He did however build cars for other teams that ran Chrysler.

The cars themselves, "bodies in white" originated and came directly from Chrysler to COG. Chrysler used to supply all the race parts directly to the teams themselves.

COG built every race car that came from their shop, every year. Period.

At some point around 1963 (I have the original notes from Frank Wylie at Chrysler on this), Ray Nichels did become a distributor for Chrysler and began supplying the race parts (and things like the Daytona nose, spoiler, etc) to all teams, and the cars to some teams, but NEVER COG or Petty teams, which built their own cars from the cars supplied directly from Chrysler. Every contract I have reiterates the fact that Chrysler would supply the cars to COG.

Later, towards the end of Chrysler's factory racing efforts, Petty replaced Nichels as the distributor for Chrysler race parts.

"Never" is a strong word.

You cannot compare the way things were done with Nichels in 1963-1964 with 1968-1969.     In 1964, Nichels did not have the capacity and COG most certainly built their own cars.    By 1968, anything fielded by COG started in a basic build on the benches at Nichels.   It could be finished by COG in their own way.    Most teams would say, "we built that car".      

Petty Enterprises had the exception to build their own cars from the ground up, which they did through 1968.  Those cars look much different than the Nichels cars.   However, COG's 1968 thru 1970 cars look like Nichels cars under the skin.  

You will notice Nichels Engineering chassis number DC-84 on the blower of this COG car.    That means "Dodge Charger, chassis number 84".

[Indygenerallee]

"Never" is a strong word.

You cannot compare the way things were done with Nichels in 1963-1964 with 1968-1969.     In 1964, Nichels did not have the capacity and COG most certainly built their own cars.    By 1968, anything fielded by COG started in a basic build on the benches at Nichels.   It could be finished by COG in their own way.    Most teams would say, "we built that car".     

Petty Enterprises had the exception to build their own cars from the ground up, which they did through 1968.  Those cars look much different than the Nichels cars.   However, COG's 1968 thru 1970 cars look like Nichels cars under the skin. 

You will notice Nichels Engineering chassis number DC-84 on the blower of this COG car.    That means "Dodge Charger, chassis number 84".

 

[odcics2]

It is WELL documented that the 2 Petty Super Birds in 1970 were built by Nichels and finished at Petty Enterprises.
   

[Aero426]

Richard Petty "building the Superbird".   On the door bars is Nichels serial number P-98 which is "Plymouth, car #98 in sequence".    Petty's people would probably tell you, "we built that car", and they  wouldn't be wrong.   But the basic construction of this car was done at Nichels Engineering.  

[Aero426]

I certainly can believe that COG got a body in 1967.    But it has no bearing on future cars.   The fact that he got a body doesn't even mean it was actually used.    It could have been built.  It could have been kept for spares.  It could be used for ANY purpose.  

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

Still waiting for that body in white photo at COG from 1968 or 1969.
 

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

Still waiting for evidence that COG did not build his own cars.

As I've said, he did "build" his cars.   It's just that the cars from 1968, 1969 were not built from the ground up in-house.   

[odcics2]

In 68 69 and 70 COG received mostly finished cars from Nichels, just like Ray Fox, Harry Hyde and Mario Rossi.

Did you know that COG also ran Chrysler Engineering built hemis in some races?  
Off hand I remember: Firecracker 400 in 67, Daytona 500 in 68, Firecracker 400 in 68, Daytona 500 in 69, World 600 in 69, National 500 in 69.

[Aero426]

Snapshot of the repaired COG #6 in Ohio on the way back from Nichels Engineering, June 1970.     Cotton was with the car on this trip.

The heavy repair of this car was done at Nichels where the car was originally framed.   Why?   Because Nichels had the original fixtures on their fab bench to do the job.

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

You have no idea why it could have been there, unless you were there yourself.

Now you guys are talking out of your ass. Completely wrong. Really man, c'mon. You weren't there. You have assembled your version of reality from half-truths. I have to go now, this is useless and you guys take the cake. No sense in continuing this argument when you guys know more than God himself.

I'm not sure what it means when someone too young to be there points the finger at the collective and says "You weren't there".    

[odcics2]

How about you post a photo or two of the bed plate used by COG to build his own cars from 68 to 70 ?

That would surely shut me up...    

[hemigeno]

I'll say this once (directed to therealmoparman).

Keep the personal attacks and insults to yourself.  

You may differ in opinion, and that's fine.  There's no obligation to agree - but either leave the name-calling out of the posts or prepare to make an exit.

[odcics2]

You have no idea why it could have been there, unless you were there yourself.

Now you guys are talking out of your ass. Completely wrong. Really man, c'mon. You weren't there. You have assembled your version of reality from half-truths. I have to go now, this is useless and you guys take the cake. No sense in continuing this argument when you guys know more than God himself.

How old were you in 1970?   I was 14 and at MIS.   I had already been getting Stock Car Racing and reading it cover to cover.
My interest in Nascar started in '67 when my dad told me Petty toured the Trenton Engine Plant. 

[Aero426]

The question of the origins of the Darlington museum #6 Daytona were around for years prior to Cotton getting the car out of the museum and selling it.   This 2003 email is from Andy Agosta, the Chrysler employee  who personally handled the #6 show car at the major show events in 1970.     This is the car that went into the Darlington museum and is now in Bruce Canepa's hands.