Buddy Bakers Daytona

[nascarxx29]

Old auction.

http://www.gogearhead.com/
http://www.gogearhead.com/69Daytonaracecar/index.html
1969 Cotton Owens/Buddy Baker Dodge Daytona HEMI NASCAR Race Car
The Original '69 Dodge Daytona Hemi built by legendary NASCAR hall of fame member Cotton Owens and piloted by Buddy Baker to more than 200mph at Talladega International Speedway! Cotton picked this car up from the Darlington museum, where it had been resting for more than 40 years. This car was recently sold on eBay by GOGEARHEAD.COM for an incredible NO RESERVE price of more than $800,000.00 to a satisfied collector in California.

SOLD FOR $801,109.00 on eBay

[hemigeno]

Sorry for chiming in on this thread so late... the weekends don't often afford much "online time" for me.

So let me get this right ....... some things don't add up!

anyone got any hard dates for these events?

Excellent question, and it gets to the heart of the matter since we know the location of the "show car" from the (February) 1970 Chicago auto show.

Here are the 1969 and early 1970 Grand National race dates at tracks 1 mile and over.  You can check them out on Racing-Reference.com if you'd like:

9/14/69  Talladega 500 --  #6 did not race

10/12/69  National 500 (Charlotte Motor Speedway) -- #6 started 5th, finished 3rd, led 80 laps -- pole speed was 162.162mph

10/26/69  American 500 (North Carolina Motor Speedway [Rockingham, NC]) -- #6 started 6th, finished 3rd, led 34 laps -- pole speed was 136.972mph

12/7/69  Texas 500 (Texas World Speedway) --  #6 started 1st, finished 8th after a crash -- pole speed was 176.284mph

*end of 1969 Grand National season*


1970 Grand National season

1/18/70  Motor Trend 500 (Riverside International Raceway) -- #6 was driven by Sam Posey, started 9th, finished 28th after engine problems -- pole speed was 112.06  (NOTE - I'm assuming that the "1969 Dodge" listed on the entry list was a Daytona)

2/19/70  Daytona 500 Qualifier #2 -- #6 started 1st, finished 2nd, led 13 laps -- pole speed was 192.624mph

2/22/70  Daytona 500 -- #6 started 2nd, finished 27th after ignition problems, led 1 lap - pole speed was 194.015


I've long been fascinated by the #6 car that was displayed at Darlington, and I think there was a discussion on the old board about the car when Cotton pulled it out of the Museum.  There were some pictures posted back then that showed the tube frame in the engine compartment that had various clues of its former race history, and I don't think anyone questions that the chassis - at one time or another - probably saw duty on the racetrack.  I do not, however, think it can be said with absolute certainty that it saw duty in Daytona trim.  If it did, it would have been in the first few races the Daytona saw action in - and almost certainly not the 1970 Daytona 500.  None of those races saw speeds approaching 200mph.

I have tremendous respect for Cotton Owens, have met him a couple of times, and don't begin to say that I have a clear recollection of what happened over 40 years ago.  Heck, I was three in the spring of 1970!  However, a few logical gaps exist in the argument being made that this particular chassis has race-winning and record-setting provenance.  Given the facts/records and timeframes, some statements made just don't make any logical sense.  A wise man once said regarding opinions, "you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts."

BTW, Troy (the owner of our forum here) has already cautioned us about trying to play nice.  Good advice.  Even if we don't all agree, perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable.

[Aero426]

Unfortunately for you I have a picture of the #6 car at Darlington Speedway. On the track, posing for a photo, not in a race. It is a postcard from 1970. The car looks EXACTLY like the one in question. It looks exactly like the race car because it IS the race car.

Could you please post this picture here, or on your website so we can take a look?

[hemi68charger]

Here's a few pictures of the #6 throughout the '69 year I take it......

[richRTSE]

So Cotton took the wrecked #6 and made that into the show car. Just look at the photos under the hood and under the chassis - does that really look like a show car and not race setup? Really? You are a fool if you can't accept the reality that is so plain for everyone to see

I'm a little confused here...when exactly was the wreck turned into a show car? What "show car" is on display at the Chicago auto show in February 1970? It sure looks like the car Canepa is selling. But according to Canepa's website, they say the car was last raced in October of 1970 and "The car is not restored but thoroughly cleaned, detailed and all mechanical components checked. It is as it was last raced in 1970." 

So, did Cotton build the car that was at the show in February 1970? Would you build a show car and then race it later? If not then it couldn't be the 200mph car could it? Or are there two "show cars"? Either way there is some dishonesty here somewhere. If the car was built from a wreck, how can Canepa say it's not restored? 

[Ghoste]

Has it been established that it did 200 mph?  I mean of course, aside from Buddy saying so.  I am not saying the car didn't run 200 mph at a NASCAR sanctioned event but it isn't like Buddy had a speedometer in there so his saying it doesn't make it a fact.  It could have happened several times but I ask again, isn't the first time that NASCAR acknowledges anyone as doing a 200 mph lap in the 80's?  I'm pretty sure they give credit to Benny Parsons as being first in a qualifying run and someone else for the first race lap not too long after.  Or am I wrong here, is there other documention which proves otherwise?  Proves as in the timers for the sanctioning body officially recorded it not proves as in any of the race teams claiming it.

[Aero426]

What have you proven?

Show me an example of another car being the first to go 200 mph in a NASCAR event. Obviously there must be a shred of evidence somewhere. If not the #6, then who? If not this car, then where is the real one?

By what has been published from the period, a formally recognized 200 mph lap in a NASCAR race did not happen.    Can you provide proof beyond the 2008 press release?  

Show me where the real Southern 500 winner is. By your logic, the real car was eaten by llamas and a show car was quickly constructed to go in the museum.

It may not exist, at least in the form of a car skinned today as a '69 Charger.    Chrysler displayed a #6 Daytona on the auto show circuit as early of February 1970.   I have the photos. They are clearly from 1970.   I certainly do believe that Frank Wylie or Gale Porter asked for a car to be prepared for the auto shows - just not at the end of 1970.  I believe the same car was used during the major 1970 auto shows and promotional appearances, and was also used for Cobo in 1971, and later donated to the Weatherly Museum.   It does not make sense for a second #6 show car to be built just for Cobo '71.

Your logic suggests that Cotton destroyed all the other race Daytonas, including the winner of the Southern 500, perhaps his favorite accomplishment of all time. He destroyed that car, built a "show car," and instead put that in a museum at Darlington for 40 years.  

Destroyed is not the term I would use.   With the loss of factory funding for 1971 (and the Daytona not being legal) , it was necessary for teams to recycle their cars into 1971 models.   Some cars were sold off to lesser teams.  Some 1971 cars were new.  These cars were weapons and tools of the trade.   Although not impossible, it would be very unusual for a team to keep a year old car as a momento when it was worth something as a working race car - especially with the loss of factory money.    A fine example is the Pete Hamilton 1971 Plymouth from COG.  It was converted to a 1972 Charger, and later to a Magnum.  NASCAR teams did this out of necessity.

As to the #6 Daytona that exists today, I personally believe it is the Chrysler show car from 1970 and 71 donated to the Weatherly museum.  There is no doubt it is an Owens built car.      

[therealmoparman]

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[superbirdtom]

I believe Mythbusters needs to be contacted.

[moparstuart]

I believe Mythbusters needs to be contacted.

[hemigeno]

Lots of modifications were made to make it a car suitable for the show circuit and the museum.

They showed the car they raced. RACE CAR = SHOW CAR.

According to your earlier comment, it had to have "lots of modifications" for show duty... Are you suggesting that they alternated back and forth between the two "formats" depending on whether the car's presence was requested by Chrysler at an auto show?

[Redbird]

Here is what I believe I've learned:

Buddy Baker won the 1970 Southern 500 in a Cotton Owens Dodge Daytona.

On 3/24/1970 Buddy Baker officially went 200.447 MPH in the #88 Dodge Daytona, driving counterclockwise only. To get the official record he didn't have to get back in the car and drive it clockwise too.

A Dodge Daytona in Cotton Owens/Buddy Baker livery was at (a) manufacturer's car show(s) in early 1970 (i.e. while the 1970 models were being displayed).

Buddy Baker went 198.260 MPH in a Cotton Owens Dodge Daytona at the 1970 Alabama 500 in a competition lap.

[therealmoparman]

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[Mopurr]

I have  a question regarding the picture of the car on Cottons site posted and the one posted saying it is from the 70 show.

Were the decals and Cotton's name & other names added or changed from what the car showed in 1971?

Because the front fender in the picture of the 70 show one has some different and or less decals and does not have the list of names.

Yes I know they could have been added or changed but when did this happen was the show car changed between 70 and 71 or was this added later?

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

The pictures of the Chicago show in Feb 1970 - if accurate - only prove that the car was shown in Feb 1970, then raced that season, then shown again at Cobo in Jan 1971. Then museum. Then retrieved. Then ebay. Whitworth. Canepa.

Notice the pics at Chicago, pics on Stock Car cover, and pics as retrieved from museum all look very similar, except for the visible decal changes on the fender, and the sponsor changes on the quarter.

So the car raced in 1970 in various livery and setups. What a concept in NASCAR! After the car wrecked at Charlotte, on Oct 11, 1970 it was returned to COG, where it probably sat for a few weeks. Greg Porter called and said they needed a car to show at Cobo in Jan. Cotton fixed the one that was wrecked at Charlotte. Obviously they would have repainted it. Put new decals on it. And put carpet in it, etc. Made it into a car to be shown, not raced. They retired it.

Mystery solved!

But the car raced at Daytona (or the Southern 500) doesn't match the one shown in Chicago.    The one shown in Chicago and Cobo DOES seem to match the one from the museum. 

[therealmoparman]

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[6bblgt]

It makes a lot more sense that this "crashed" race car .....

12/7/69  Texas 500 (Texas World Speedway) --  #6 started 1st, finished 8th after a crash -- pole speed was 176.284mph

*end of 1969 Grand National season*

Was turned into a "show car" for Chrysler Corp. and used for the '70 & '71 seasons strickly as a "show car".
The same car CAN NOT be at Daytona and Chicago in February of 1970.

& it would be easy to confuse the dates of turning a wrecked racecar at the end of the season into a show car for Chrysler.  1969 VS. 1970

[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

What do you mean they do not match. What is different about them, other than the decals and livery.. things that constantly changed. As previously stated.

They looked different every time probably. Doesn't matter. In the end, the race car was repainted, re-decaled, and carpeted, and windowed, and probably armor-alled for crying out loud.

Why are you so confused?

I am not at all confused.  The car in the top photo (auto show) looks nothing like the car in the middle photo (Daytona 500) or the bottom photo (Darlington).   The 1970 Daytona race cars have fenders that have been cut on, flared and massaged.   Look how the Daytona 500 and Darlington noses are drooped.   The Auto Show car looks much more like street car fenders.     The Darlington car has no glass, which, again, not only was it illegal at the time, it would be a laborious process to reinstall later for a 1971 auto show when the car was now two model years old.

The Chicago Auto Show took place within ONE WEEK of the Daytona race track photo.  Given the visual differences and lead times of moving cars around, it is obvious these two are not the same car.

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

Again you are confusing things by your pure conjecture and speculation. Because you say "it makes a lot more sense" even though you weren't there, don't know a thing about racing in 1970, nor how bad that car was wrecked, nor whatever happened to it.

You can't prove a thing you say.

Ryan, you are going to have to come up with something better than belittling people.   People are asking you repeatedly to present physical proof of your claims.  Those claims of the extensive race history started when YOU sold the car to Ralph Whitworth.   I really do not believe you have the physical evidence to back up your claims.  

Moreover, I have to ask you this...  You have sold the car, and collected the better part of a million dollars years ago.   Why is this topic so important to you now that the car is two owners down the road?    

Your grandfather is a good man and your family has the utmost respect within the community.   Nobody is suggesting anything otherwise.

[richRTSE]

from Motor Trend Feb 1970...Texas 500 coverage...

[Aero426]

Also, where do you get the Daytona pic and how can you verify the date?

The photo vendor is Tom Reel from South Bend Indiana.   Although the photo is labeled, it is obviously not the Firecracker 400 in July as side glass was not legal then.   Thus, it can only be from February of 1970.   It is from a photo sequence of several cars show coming in off track to get tire temps taken.

Again, applying some common sense regarding the dates and photos of the cars, the Chicago Auto Show car and the Daytona car cannot be the same car.