Buddy Bakers Daytona

[richRTSE]

Okay, I was a little confused. I do remember reading the story about the stolen 500 now...that picture jogged my memory.

[69_500]

That would be the first C500 I have seen with the high bumpers on the front though.

[6bblgt]

QUOTE:
As for my knowledge, I don't know everything but I have spent a few hundred hours working on and studying a certain well known 69.
Also, if Nichels built the show car for chrysler as you say, there should be certain noticable differences in the chassis.  For example the torion bar adjuster.  Just my .02.

ANSWER:
I should not say Nichels built it. I honestly do not know. I only think it is very possible, considering the time period, etc. But I do not have any knowledge about what that car may or may not contain, and have never seen it.

You are kidding right?    There's a picture of yourself sitting in it on your Grandfathers website. 

[chargerboy69]

That is him in the car?  The car he has never seen.  I can not wait to hear his explanation.

Maybe we will get another story about George Washington (see page 15) planting green beans or something to change the subject.

[Troy]

QUOTE:
what are we to do if there are people who also knew the car back then, who disagree with what he remembers?   Because that is the situation.   


ANSWER: Bring them forward and out into the spotlight. Have them post their version of events in a public forum on this very message board. Have them do it themselves, under their own name. Not retold by you or anyone. Only then can we admit that as "evidence" and rightfully debate it.

So wait, you will only believe it when the people who were actually there post their version of events here? In their own words? Using their real names? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware Cotton was a member and I don't see him posting. I will have to send him a welcome message.

Troy

[6bblgt]

These 4 pictures are the same car.  I welcome any PROOF to the contrary.

[70Sbird]

That is exactly what all of the evidence points to because these picures ARE all of the same car!
Everyone understands this fact except for one person, and he's sitting in it.

[A383Wing]

These 4 pictures are the same car.  I welcome any PROOF to the contrary.

The only difference I see are a few different "stickers" on the front fender...or is it my eyes again??

[Ghoste]

QUOTE:
I have personally had the pleasure of interviewing and getting to know a great many of the folks who made NASCAR what it once was (and--sadly--is no more, thanks to Brian X. France). I won't bore you with the list, but it is extensive.  Their memories of events 40 years in the past are on many occassions inexact. Pictures, on the other hand, do not lie. Pictures do not forget and pictures do not mis-remember.

ANSWER:
Don't pump yourself up buddy - you still weren't there.

Neither were you, unless at 7 years of age you were somehow more cognizant of the history of what was taking place than a typical second grader.  You have ready access to one of the greats but you are really just interviewing someone who was there the same as others.

[learical1]

There was a Daytona on display at the Chicago Auto Show late February 1970 painted in the #6 Buddy Baker/Cotton Owens colors.
There was a Daytona on display at the Detroit Auto Show late Nov/Dec. 1970 painted in the #6 Buddy Baker/Cotton Owens colors.
No Argument here, right?
Without running back for exact quotes, it has been stated that Chrysler asked Owens to provide a car for the Detroit show.  Cotton didn't have time to make a showcar so he took the 70 Southern 500 winner and repaired it for the show.
Two questions:  Why would Chrysler want a car for the Detroit show, when they already had one that was shown at the earlier Chicago show?  And why would Owens go through the trouble of making his car look almost identical to the showcar Chrysler already had, instead of the race winning car he might wish to preserve for history?

[therealmoparman]

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[hemigeno]

So where did this phantom car come from?

This is the crux of the whole discussion.

>>  You posit that the car is a "phantom"

>>  There are a whole lot of us who see absolutely no differences (other than decals, which is no big deal) between any of the "show car" pictures - including the one taken in Cotton's shop that has been dated -- by the photo's recipient -- long before the end of the 1970 racing season.


A serious question for you, Ryan... IF the car in the Feb '70 Chicago show pictures is indeed the same car as in the other "show car" pictures, would you agree that your timeline theory could not be true?  I am not asking if you believe whether that's the case, as you've made it abundantly clear you do not currently hold to that same opinion.

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

What do you know about this car?

I don't know anything about it. But obviously it is a pretty good clone from a distance. Where did it come from? What is it's story? Who knows how many other fake #6's there could be out there that we all don't know about?

It's a home made race car that runs in Wisconsin on a tribute vintage circuit.   Some of these cars were at Darlington last year.


Now stop dancing and please answer Geno's question below.  

A serious question for you, Ryan... IF the car in the Feb '70 Chicago show pictures is indeed the same car as in the other "show car" pictures, would you agree that your timeline theory could not be true?  I am not asking if you believe whether that's the case, as you've made it abundantly clear you do not currently hold to that same opinion.

[hemigeno]

What do you know about this car?

I did not ask anything about other cars, only specifically about the #6 car photographed at the February 1970 Chicago show.  I'll repeat the question:

IF the car in the Feb '70 Chicago show pictures is indeed the same car as in the other "show car" pictures, would you agree that your timeline theory could not be true?  I am not asking if you believe whether that's the case, as you've made it abundantly clear you do not currently hold to that same opinion.

[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

As I stated before, the Daytona as a model made its debut in Sept of 69. COG made its first race with a Daytona at Texas in 12.69. Then Daytona in 02.70.

So you think he started working with the Daytonas in Sept-Oct-Nov of 69 - and he and his 6-man crew had time to build a race car for Texas, a new race car for Daytona, and a show car - all at the same time?

[Aero426]

So you think he started working with the Daytonas in Sept-Oct-Nov of 69 - and he and his 6-man crew had time to build a race car for Texas, a new race car for Daytona, and a show car - all at the same time?

I think you underestimate the power of what an experienced crew can accomplish.  It's not like they had to build every car from the ground up.  They had cars to start with.   It also does not take very long to convert a Charger 500 into a Daytona.   

[6bblgt]

What happened to the wrecked COG #6 500 from the Volunteer 500 at Bristol on 7/20/69?

[tan top]

What happened to the wrecked COG #6 500 from the Volunteer 500 at Bristol on 7/20/69?

i remember seeing a picture of that  he wrecked with the road runner of Dick brooks  on lap 30 i believe  , think there was a 8 or 10 car wreck  , for get now ,   will have to dig out the book i saw it in  

[Redbird]

I'd like to add another nail in the coffin in regards to the suggestion that another shop may have built a copy of the Baker/Owens car for show purposes in early 1970.

If you look at the Feb. 1970 Chicago show pictures (which no one has offered an alternate place or time for), the hood,door, quarter (plus what we can see of the roof) lettering seem to match exactly what COG was putting on it's race cars. For another busy shop to get these things done as COG in it's cars did stretches imagination. If one looks at the contemporary "tribute' car you can see the proportion of the door "6" is off. Anyone that has experience replicating things knows there is a "tell" when you see an original and reproduction piece. I would suggest that COG had it's standard way in proportioning it's distinctive lettering and that was on the Feb. 1970 Chicago show car.

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

So it would be no big deal to send someone a set of decals, or for them to get their own set. Coffin still open.

But for a stranger to apply them "exactly" would be a real stretch.   

[Ghoste]

It'd be a stretch for anyone to apply them exactly between different cars.  Even if they did it hundreds of times.  You could get them pretty close if you were to use a template.

[wingcar builder]

you know i got a call yesterday to read this thread thats on here and you know what?.... i read it last nite leading me to have and get a bottle of F@%Kin Tylenol! this thread has gone in circles and went no where. the shear notion that Ray Nichels would have built a car for Chrysler is utter nonsense. Ray if you recall had his plate full with Nascar and USAC teams at the time.I was going to call Terry Nichels this morning and ask him about it but I know what he would say. I get to go thru the Nichels archives when i want to and there is no photos or reference to him building a show car for Chrysler or anyone. now this issue of this Car in question is very interesting to say the least. now one very interesting feature of the human brain is it has the ability to get confused over a course of years. a good example is Ray Fox, now when i was talking to him one nite he said that he built his own Chassis' now Terry told me that Fox Bought all his chassis from Nichels also as did many other teams. Jim Vandidver told me his daytona was a home made car never came from Nichels. Now the Daytona that Terry owned that Verlin Eaker drove was the same old yellow #99 Charger. he had one car and it was fitted with the daytona nose and wing when needed. the cars were rebodied faster than you know. the old #99 Dow Daytona was rebodied as was the first Talladega winner. back then the big hype didn't exist about keeping winning cars. nobody had the notion that these cars would be anything other than a race memory in the future. now one of Cottons cars was wrecked I believe in the World 600totally wasted in the ass. here is a picture below and also an invoice from Nichels with a list of parts consistent with the damage. now is it possibble that this car could have been used as the show car in question? judging by the photos it had to have had a whole ass put on the car. there fore bringing in the question of the rear trunk latch and stuff being in the car.and no race stabilizer braces put in. and the rearend being pushed forward shoving the driveshaft to and maybe taking out the loops as well. also the invoice is dated May 26,1970. so in my personal opinion i believe the show car in question is this car in the photos. also as brought up earlier that any Nichels chassis would have a number. we may never really know the true pedigree of this car as it's past has a cloudy memory and Mr. Canepa is relying on that. But i will say this, the series of events last year when someone called me about tires for a particular COG Daytona raised my suspicions.