Buddy Bakers Daytona

[therealmoparman]

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[Aero426]

Excuse me sir, I believe I do speak with authority.

Rather, I am speaking directly for someone who does have authority on this subject.

I am learning this history directly from The Ultimate authority.

Not from anecdotes, hearsay, and other claims from people who were not there themselves. Or said this or that.

I am telling you from the men who lived it. They lived it. They did not document their lives like you would have wished. We are filling in the details and remembering history, just like you are.

I have come to this board to clear the air, once and for all. I am willing to undertake any piece of history you can dig up. I have challenged you to do so. Together, we are all learning a lot. The Truth will come out.

Nothing you have presented thus far has changed my story. It has only made it stronger.

Considering you have sold the car four years ago, collected the money, and it is two owners down the road, why is this car even your issue?

[6bblgt]

The cars displayed at Cobo in 1969 and Chicago Feb 1970 are not COG cars. We do not know who they were built by. Could have been by Ray Nichels or Chrysler. Cotton did not attend the 69 Cobo show. That is why Mario Rossi and Baker were there.

The #6 Southern 500 winner began life in 1969. It raced in Dec of 1969 at College Station Texas. It was wrecked by Baker here. I believe there are pictures of this.

The #6 (eventual 500 winner) was taken back to COG shop, where it sat for a while. Cotton was building a new car to take to Daytona for Feb 1970. A brand new car was taken to Daytona in Feb 1970. There was never a claim anyway that the Southern 500 winner ran at Daytona in Feb. It was the July 4 Firecracker race where it ran 2nd.

So the car sat around COG shop until it was later rebuilt in 1970. It raced at Daytona in July 1970 finising 2nd. At Talladega (not sure if it was April or August race). Then raced and won at Darlington (09.07.1970). It later raced at Charlotte (10.11.1970) where it was wrecked again.

Gale Porter called Cotton and wanted a car for Cobo in Nov-Dec (1970) or Jan 1971. The car shown at Cobo in 70-71 and Chicago 71 were in fact the real COG race car (and Southern 500 winner). Hence the sign "Dodge Wins Big in '70"

So it looks like there was another #6 out there. It just wasn't built by COG. Ray Nichels built cars for Chrysler and I am quite sure he was capable of building a replica and Chrysler may have used that for promotions. I cannot speak for that car.

That would explain why all the cars look different. The car shown at COG with crew is not the same car shown at Chicago in 1970.

It makes a lot more sense that this "crashed" race car .....

12/7/69  Texas 500 (Texas World Speedway) --  #6 started 1st, finished 8th after a crash -- pole speed was 176.284mph

*end of 1969 Grand National season*

Was turned into a "show car" for Chrysler Corp. and used for the '70 & '71 seasons strickly as a "show car".
The same car CAN NOT be at Daytona and Chicago in February of 1970.

& it would be easy to confuse the dates of turning a wrecked racecar at the end of the season into a show car for Chrysler.  1969 VS. 1970

Earlier in the thread I suggested this possibility and was dismissed.  Now you are stating they are the same car.

What was relayed to hemigeno about the fate of the wrecked College Station, TX car?

Why would Chrysler Corp want a "show car" built at the end of the '70 season that represented a car that NASCAR basically outlawed? & why would the car be painted to represent the single digit #6 on the nose that only raced in (at most) 3 '69 season races?

Have you identified the "crew members" in the vintage shop photo?

Why would there be two nearly identical #6 "show cars" one built by COG and the and one by others?

Some "hipster" from Dodge Marketing/Advertising probably slapped the "flower power" Scat Pack decal on the nose of the car at a show.

[richRTSE]

Not to throw another wrench into this, but how long did Charlie Glotzbach drive a #6 Dodge? And did he ever drive a #6 Daytona?

[hemigeno]

I will echo Doug's question:

Considering you have sold the car four years ago, collected the money, and it is two owners down the road, why is this car even your issue?

[Aero426]

Not to throw another wrench into this, but how long did Charlie Glotzbach drive a #6 Dodge? And did he ever drive a #6 Daytona?

Charlie began driving for Cotton in 1968, and walked away from NASCAR briefly in 1969 over personal issues he had with the series.   Buddy Baker was given Charlie's #6 ride.   As to Charlie, cooler heads prevailed and Charlie returned to drive the Nichels #99 in June of '69 when Paul Goldsmith retired.   He never drove a #6 Daytona.

[Ghoste]

I'm still curious as to why they would put a street wing on it... at the end of the season.  Now if you had a crashed car at the beginning of the season and wanted to keep your legal parts for race use, it would make sense, but if it were the end of 70 and the the car had just been made illegal, why on earth would you bother to change the wing?
For that matter, why would you give up a winning chassis just because the sheet metal was made illegal?  Cars were reskinned all the time as we have all agreed so with chassis dialing a time consuming and important part of the equation and now suddenly being more important with your wind cheating sheet metal denied, why would you get rid of a winning one?  Wouldn't it be easier to give up one that didn't work as well?

[chargerboy69]

Note that the sign show from Cobo at end of 70 or begin of 71 says "Dodge Wins Again in '70" with #6.

I have posted the dates a couple times for you.  The show at Cobo was November 21-29 1970.  

They would only put that with a car that really won.

What the #@%!.  I would like to know how they did that considering the #6 just ran a race a couple days before in Rockingham.  And since you have stated several times there was only one car, I am still curious how the #6 car ran 18 races in 1970 and still had time to tour the country as a show car.  And we know for sure, as stated by you several times, the one and only  #6 car was at the Chicago Auto Show on February 22, 1970 and the Daytona 500 on February 22, 1970. That is one car, two places at the same time, 1700 miles away.  

Here is where I get my information on the 18 races the #6 car ran that year.  But lets not cloud this discussion with facts.

http://www.racing-reference.info/rquery?id=6&trk=t0&series=W&cn=1&yr=1970

[richRTSE]

I'm still curious as to why they would put a street wing on it... at the end of the season. 

I might be wrong, but I think what they said was it had the street braces, the part that is inside the trunk and bolts to the bottom of the wing and the trunk floor. The pictures from Canepa's site show the street style braces.

[hemigeno]

I'm still curious as to why they would put a street wing on it... at the end of the season.  

I might be wrong, but I think what they said was it had the street braces, the part that is inside the trunk and bolts to the bottom of the wing and the trunk floor. The pictures from Canepa's site show the street style braces.

The Canepa car's wing also lacked the safety cabling mandated after Buddy Arrington's crash which sent a horizontal wing section helicoptering off the racetrack area.  While the cabling could have been merely removed, its previous installation would have left visible evidence of a drilled hole in the wing.  I've seen the Chrysler blueprints from Neil Castles which gave explicit dimensions for how this was done.

The fact that bracing and cabling were not track-ready or track-approved for racing during the bulk of the 1970 racing season is yet another piece of evidence supporting a pre-1970 season construction timeline and show-car intent.  So far, the only explanation proffered is that "it must have been changed out".  This is an explanation of convenience to fit a storyline that is otherwise not supported by the evidence.

[Aero426]

I'm still curious as to why they would put a street wing on it... at the end of the season.  

I might be wrong, but I think what they said was it had the street braces, the part that is inside the trunk and bolts to the bottom of the wing and the trunk floor. The pictures from Canepa's site show the street style braces.

The Canepa car's wing also lacked the safety cabling mandated after Buddy Arrington's crash which sent a horizontal wing section helicoptering off the racetrack area.

The wing cable would typically be visible externally at the top of the wing upright.   Of course if the car was completed prior to Daytona in Feb of 1970, it wouldn't have a cable whether it raced or not.   The car also has a street style trunk lock pillar which is just extra baggage on a race car.    No driveshaft loops?   No passing tech either.   Why would anyone take the time to remove driveshaft loops on a car destined for show?

[hemigeno]

What was relayed to hemigeno about the fate of the wrecked College Station, TX car?

I'm interested myself in what Ryan relays about this car's fate.  I remember quite distinctly what Cotton said, and others were present at the time the story was relayed.

[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[therealmoparman]

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[hemigeno]

Quote
12/7/69  Texas 500 (Texas World Speedway) --  #6 started 1st, finished 8th after a crash -- pole speed was 176.284mph

*end of 1969 Grand National season*

Was turned into a "show car" for Chrysler Corp. and used for the '70 & '71 seasons strickly as a "show car".
The same car CAN NOT be at Daytona and Chicago in February of 1970.


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Was stated there was a Cobo show in Dec 69. How could a car that was crashed on 12.07.69 be at a Cobo show that same month?

That was not the fate of the '69 Texas 500 car as relayed to me by Cotton.  What have you been told by him about that particular chassis?  

[therealmoparman]

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[6bblgt]

You are confusing points that have already been made. It never ends! 

You have NOT made any/nor proven any points to anyone but yourself.

Try stating one FACT and be willing to discuss that one FACT.

[Aero426]

QUOTE: What the #@%!. Roll Eyes  I would like to know how they did that considering the #6 just ran a race a couple days before in Rockingham.  And since you have stated several times there was only one car, I am still curious how the #6 car ran 18 races in 1970 and still had time to tour the country as a show car.  And we know for sure, as stated by you several times, the one and only  #6 car was at the Chicago Auto Show on February 22, 1970 and the Daytona 500 on February 22, 1970. That is one car, two places at the same time, 1700 miles away. 


ANSWER: There was not one and only #6 car. Cotton had a stable of 1-3, in any form at any time. Charger 500 or Daytona. Dad says he only remembers one WING car.

That means that they put the wing and nose on at different tracks, at different times.

If two different chassis ran with Daytona sheet metal on them, I guess that would mean there was more than one Daytona!

[therealmoparman]

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[hemi68charger]

Quote
12/7/69  Texas 500 (Texas World Speedway) --  #6 started 1st, finished 8th after a crash -- pole speed was 176.284mph

*end of 1969 Grand National season*

Was turned into a "show car" for Chrysler Corp. and used for the '70 & '71 seasons strickly as a "show car".
The same car CAN NOT be at Daytona and Chicago in February of 1970.


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Was stated there was a Cobo show in Dec 69. How could a car that was crashed on 12.07.69 be at a Cobo show that same month?

That was not the fate of the '69 Texas 500 car as relayed to me by Cotton.  What have you been told by him about that particular chassis?  

Speaking of the Texas 500, here's the high-banks.......... Maybe we should have an Aeros meet there.......

[Ghoste]

QUOTE:

For that matter, why would you give up a winning chassis just because the sheet metal was made illegal?  Cars were reskinned all the time as we have all agreed so with chassis dialing a time consuming and important part of the equation and now suddenly being more important with your wind cheating sheet metal denied, why would you get rid of a winning one?  Wouldn't it be easier to give up one that didn't work as well?


ANSWER: You are speculating again. You weren't there.

The car was wrecked at Texas in 69. Wrecked again at CLT in Oct 70. The car had been wrecked several times. Baker tore up a lot of race cars.

Cotton didn't get rid of it. That's what I've said. He kept it, because it was a winner. He did not give it away, he loaned it to Chrysler. Took it back, then loaned it to museum.

He got rid of it because they ran Plymouths in 1971.

You are confusing points that have already been made. It never ends! 

I wasn't speculating at all, I was asking a question (hence the question marks).  Let me rephrase the part about giving it away and ask why wouldn't you continue to race that chassis with new, albeit Plymouth shaped) sheet metal?
And yes, Baker did tear up a LOT of cars.  Makes you wonder almost how you could keep track so easily 40 years later about which one went where and when.  But then, you weren't there either or more accurately I suppose you were there but at 7 years of age it isn't likely you were documenting much of this.  And yes, I get it, you are asking the people who were there doing it but something still isn't adding up.

[therealmoparman]

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[Ghoste]

You are right, we are trying to get to the truth and I am only asking to make sure those details help us get there.  If there hadn't been a lot of false provenance attached to the car in the first place when it entered the collector world, we wouldn't be here now.