J Numbers and Dealerships Question

[Arnie Cunningham]

Greetings All,   

A question has come up that I think we can answer with a group effort.  The answer may shed some more light on production numbers of Superbirds.

Were the "J Numbers" that were assigned to Superbirds, in some way correlated with specific dealerships?  Were the J Numbers a pre-production accounting method of linking specific dealerships with a car(s) that would later be built?

What brings up this question is the fact that my car has J Number J98355.  It was sold new at Mandan Chrysler Plymouth in Mandan, North Dakota.  Mandan Chrysler Plymouth was part of the Corwin group of dealerships in the region.  Ten miles east, Al Wald's Superbird was sold new at the Bismarck Corwin Chrysler Plymouth dealership.  Al's car has J Number J98354.  The numbers are consecutive.  The VIN numbers are not really all that close and the production dates found in the NASCAR list are different for the cars.  Also coincidental is the fact that the cars are absolute identical twins down to the door edge guards.  The only differences being that my car is Tor-red with a black interior and Al's is green with a white interior.  Otherwise, every option, and lack of option, is identical.

www.superbird.com Ken R. Noffsinger Greg Kwiatkowski  http://www.superbird.com/cda/cda_110669.html  recently posted an internal Chrysler document showing the quantity of Superbirds destined for various regions and sub-regions of the lower 48 states.  I started to wonder if those regions, sub-regions and dealerships were assigned a group of J Numbers before the assembly process began.  It would make sense that Plymouth would have had to decide which of its dealerships were going to get a car(s) before production began.  Without a VIN number (yet), the hypothetical vehicles would have to be given some identification.  The J Number seems logical.

Does anyone know how Plymouth decided which dealerships did, or did not, receive a Superbird or multiple Superbirds?

Would any of you who know the original dealership from which your car was sold be willing to share that data?  If we get enough cars, original dealerships and J numbers we may be able to put together a skeletal structure of the manner in which these cars were distributed.  This might help with narrowing down the production number.

What is the highest known J number of a car that is not Petty blue?

If I can get enough J numbers together, maybe other correlations will show up such as groups of J numbers matching engine/transmission configurations.

There are many more potential connections and questions but this should get the discussion started.

Thanks,
Brennan R. Cook

[nascarxx29]

The allocation reference « Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 06:49:25 PM » Quote Modify   Re: More data and speculation loaded to web.

 This is what I was refering to allocation of
1850 superbirds they had to get sold at these regions

http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_110669.html





I got original paperwork window sticker builsheets etc for my and maybe some friends superbirds on file.Will find and post.I earlier had something in similar thoughts as groups of daytona vin numbers from the daytona shiplist. .And how the cars landed in certain locations geographically as a NJ and PA car for example were 1 vin away.And twin built indentical matching cars 1 vin off


    Re: S.E. Daytona Question
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2009, 08:46:25 PM » Quote Modify  

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Sometimes there in sequential form .And then there not starting with 287970-?- 355101-355156-356502-356538-358397-358403-376479-379752-381527-381930-383263-386970 -388179-388881 390006-390044 398852-398855-400562-400608-402961-405189-409021-409079-410759 {410 vins mostly Ca cars }410797-412542-412550.{414 cars are Canada daytonas 414558-414666-417456-419443-419444-423238-423240-434780
Ive wondered as far to see if there were twin cars 1 vin away in a certain number sequence .Sometimes yes and sometime no.I know these cars 356521 and 356522 are matching twins

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,58499.0.html

[nascarxx29]

Thats why I feel the former Chrysler employees are a valuable resource.For this material .I did find a former employee that lives in my area that allocated 69 daytonas to NJ PA dealerships zones .I gave his namer and number to one or both clubs didnt hear anything further.Then I found a guy whos job it was to go to race tracks gather vins .And not allow warranty repairs on hemi etc cars.When they came in trying to claim a repair from recording there vin

[learical1]

Thats why I feel the former Chrysler employees are a valuable resource.For this material ...Then I found a guy whos job it was to go to race tracks gather vins .And not allow warranty repairs on hemi etc cars.When they came in trying to claim a repair from recording there vin

I remember hearing of this, also.  Ma Mopar would have someone at all the local dragstrips, taking pictures of the newer Dodges and Plymouths showing them staging (with the license plate in the photo).  I would assume that the same person would try to get VINs on vehicles without plates on them.  If we could get some of that info. . .

[nascarxx29]

Any ideas on what #333 refers to this is from the salesman bulletin board also note salesman card and Dodge Delta Sales Club.Whatever that is

[nascarxx29]

On these I dont have J numbers. But I have the dealers name and location and vin from actual ads I researched and found
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,60970.0.html

[FJ5WING]

is there any way to determine who the original selling dealer was? I have the build sheet if that will help me.

As far I believe the car is from Illinois.

[nascarxx29]

Anything you can pm me Dave I will see what I can dig up buildsheet has a J 97 or 98 number on it

[xs29j8Bullitt]

Would any of you who know the original dealership from which your car was sold be willing to share that data?  If we get enough cars, original dealerships and J numbers we may be able to put together a skeletal structure of the manner in which these cars were distributed.  This might help with narrowing down the production number.

I'll play... My Superbird is J98437 and was sold new at O.R. Mitchell Chrysler-Plymouth in San Antonio, Texas...

Allen

[Alaskan_TA]

Just in case it helps...

The Vehicle Order Number (VON) was the number that Chrysler used to track the car order, build & delivery.

For the 1970 model year, the J prefix was used on Y39 (special order) cars.

Of course, this included Superbirds. It also included 999 - Special Order Paint cars. Since the Petty Blue 'Birds were 999, they have a slightly different VON prefix than "normal" 'Birds.

[hemigeno]

If the Daytona VON number pattern (or lack thereof) is any indication, the J Number won't likely point to either a specific originating dealership or even a general geographic area.

I spent hours and hours trying to make heads or tails of the Daytona Invoice list.  When you boil it all down and sort them through, what you find is that they would do batches of cars from a particular region, and then suddenly jump to another random region.  The size of these regional "batches" varied widely too, and towards the end of the list there were isolated cars from different regions all mixed in with one another.  Within these regional "batches", sometimes cars from the same dealership were sequential in VON but not in VIN, sometimes sequential in both, and other times there was no correlation in either.

That doesn't mean the Superbirds weren't done much more methodically, but inconsistency is the only consistent thing with the Daytona pattern.

[nascarxx29]

When it comes to the daytona its random inconsistencies

[nascarxx29]

And the superbirds #1920 nascar list by its number pages indicates no vin groups or where cars went to certain areas.And exisiting cars are not in it .So not much can be gained from it http://wwnboa.org/vindb.html

[Wingnut426]

What about undercoated cars going to certain regions because of the climate?  My Hemi 'bird came from Ca., NO undercoat.  Pete

[nascarxx29]

Good ? winter zoned superbirds .Remember that superbird in April 70 car life roadtest during the snow.I was thinking if its not undercoated its going to rust from salt and snow years to come its gonna be hurtin .Unrelated note I had this picture is this the former Wingnut 426  white hemi bird

[Redbird]

Brennan,

Thank You for all your work and thoughts on the Superbird serial #'s and J #'s! Really well thought out. I wish you would post here what you had in Mopowerstyle the serial # sorting you did. Absolutely fantastic.

The unrelated note that is a completely unrelated item, that is Jim Fredericks car-in a museum-originally a yellow car.

Back to the real item here please.

[nascarxx29]

Another thing is on 2 dayonas Ive known 356509 and 356510 indentical twin cars .J number 1 apart.And thats random .As I seen them have close vin and way high J numbers?.And seen that on superbird .Theres seems to be no exact science

[Redbird]

I would be very interested in the J#'s and info on the first 5 Superbirds, especially in context of cars #6-10 and #11-22 on the 1920 list.

On the aerowarriors web site, under what's new 7/1/2009 there is really interesting information. The Minutes of Coordinators Meeting 10/20/1969 has an item that says there was 1 body in white and 5 pilot cars, Superbirds. On the 1920 list, car #1 was received 10/17, car #2 received 10/24, car #3-5 received 10-29. Car #1 wasn't shipped until 12/19 so where did it sit all that time? Reading through the memos posted on aerowarriors 7/1/2009 it seems like they might have worked out production difficulties on these first 5 cars before they ramped up production. Someone must have the J#'s on any of the first 5 cars.

Were these first 5 cars then sent out to the motorsports press? Is the white exterior car with bucket seats seen in the Chrysler press photos one of these cars? It is photographed at a sandy site where Chrysler brought other cars for promo work. Or were the press cars pulled off the lot from general production. Info-J#'s, broadcast sheets, and fender tags on the first 5 cars-as well as comparing them to later cars would be interesting.

Was the BIW car not given a fender tag, broadcast sheet etc. and just used for mockups for drilling and fitting fixtures when they figured out how to build the cars? Maybe it was never even completed, just a fixture mule.

[nascarxx29]

And when I researched actual 69 daytona dealer ads from 69-.Alot of those dealers were not even on the daytona shiplist

[nascarxx29]

Speaking of mystery white superbirds.Can this car be collaberated ( # 2 in production

What happened to this Hemi superbird
« on: September 19, 2008, 02:27:58 PM » Quote Modify  

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Saw this on another site


Loc: dublin ohio   Re: Does anyone know what happened to
   



i always wonderred what happened to that white Hemi Superbird (#2 in production)that was given to Bill France from Chrysler.

last time i saw it was at a dealer in Atlanta in the late 80's,and asking price was 125K back then

[nascarxx29]

[nascarxx29]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,27147.msg298090/topicseen.html#msg298090
Between the 2 brands of wing cars allocation what factors were used to determine who got them and how many

La Flam car RM23VOA170844 Don Horrow car RM23VOA167121.

[Arnie Cunningham]

Greetings All,

Thank you for all the replies.  I will go back through my saved web photos and pull out as many cars as I can.  I will add any cars I get from this thread to a spreadsheet and post it to my website.  It may take a few months to gather enough cars and draw conclusions but it could be quite enlightening.

Thanks again,
Brennan R. Cook

[nascarxx29]

Glad It helped I might be able to gather up more J numbers

[FJ5WING]

Dave what do you want me to PM, the VIN?

here is my J number....J98906