Local shop prices

[Purple440]

My local performance shop wants $400 to install a set of heads.   Is that the going rate?  It seems a bit much to me as that's half the price of the heads I'm buying. 

- Doug

[Blown70]

Well, I would have to ask why your not doing it..... ?  Heads to me are not that hard to really put on..... if you dont feel comfortable, maybe members here could walk you through it.....Just my 

[FLG]

When you say install what do you mean?

Are they going to remove your old heads, clean the gasket surface, install a new gasket and just bolt on your new ones?

Or are they going to do some work on the new ones? Assembly?

If your just going to put heads on, do it yourself and save $400. All you need is a torque wrench and some patience. A buddy to help you will also go a long way.

[Silver R/T]

way too much imo, unless they're porting them for you

[Ghoste]

I agree with the others that it seems a little high especially without more details.  Are you sure you don't want to try it yourself.

[Purple440]

They would remove the old heads and install the new ones.  They won't be doing any work on them.  I'd also expect them to give me measurements like piston to deck, and help me calculate my compression ratio.  I don't have tools for that. 

I do have my original builder who could help me do it.  Now that you guys mention it, I probably should just do it myself.  I just need to know what tool(s) I need to determine the piston to deck clearance.  Ron had asked me for a bunch of measurements a while back and I wasn't able to provide them because the original builder didn't take them.

Thanks,

[Rolling_Thunder]

I guess it depends on what you're area supports - here in Los Angeles most places charge by the hour (approx $100/hr) and my trusty labor guide states 6 hours to replace the head gaskets...     so in this area it would be approx $600 + materials

[FLG]

Whaaa? 6 hours? You can do a whole engine and tranny swap in 6 hours. Id say if your not taking measurments and just changing gaskets 2 people could get it done within the 2 hr mark. Granted if your setting things up and adjusting it might be more than that.

[Bossman963]

Rolling Thunder what book are you looking at 6 hrs to R & R heads, maybe after eating lunch grab a few besrs, watch the porn channel or soemthing, go to the store then put it back togheter.

Its not that hard to change the heads in a swap out- my 2cts 
Mike

[Cooter]

You won't understand until you own a shop...You only charger 6 hours to pull the entire engine AND trans out and you won't be open very long....


The reason the shops charge so much is the fact that if the job EVER comes back for any type of warranty you have it covered and don't loose any money..Now, of course, if you would rather have a "shadetree" do it in say 1 1/2 hours, go right ahead....That 6 hours Covers CHECKING everything like Cyl. head straightness, Block deck straightness, And lots of times the machine shop time as well....Sure, a "buddy" can help you but do you really want to be back on here asking "WTF won't my car run after replacing the heads?" I'm not saying you CAN'T do it, all I'm saying is that shop in is business to make money and they do it everyday, all day....They are NOT there to give "deals" to friends.....Now if it hadda been something like $1000.00 well, I can see some b*tchin'...just my  as I've been doing this for 20 years...

[Ghoste]

Yeah but Cooter no one is talking about removing the entire engine and trans.  The original post was about removing a set of old heads, checking piston to deck clearance to calculate compression ratio and installing a new set of heads without doing any other work.  Rolling Thunder said in LA it's 6 hours just to change head gaskets. 
How much would you charge just to replace head gaskets?
Personally I think the answer is going vary tremendously by region too, so...

[Cooter]

We'd be right in the neighborhood of That "LA" quote, as we DO NOT check piston to valve clearance and calculate compression for nothing...


I get this sh*t all the time at the shop this is why I replied the way I did...
Everybody thinks these jobs are gravy till the owner tries it on his own..
hadda guy one time tell me I was "F*ckin' crazy" for charging $1500.00 for labor to R&R engine in his Chevy van...Dude left screamin' "I'll do it my F*ckin' self before I pay THAT!?" I simply replied, "ok"...


Bout a month later same guy shows up actually driving this van..Gets out, walks straight up to me and shakes my hand..I'm wonderin' WTF?
Dude starts in about I'll pay you next time!! "Who the hell put that engine in that van to where you have to remove the entire front end to get AT it let alone get it out!?" I said, now do you understand? he replied "I just can't understand it, I figured this was a SBC and I've done them before but never in a Van"....
You see, Everybody has helped Dad or a buddy R&R an engine and never really kept up with the time, even a set of heads...Same thing with paint jobs...People think hell all you do is walk up to the car and spray it WTF does it cost so much?...Same thing with R*R heads on an engine...FIRST off, nobody Ask'd WHAT kind of vehicle is this? How do we know he's talking bout a set of 383 Heads in a Charger that is easier than a Mitsubishi Van? He just said they gonna charge me this..Plus, Nobody is taken in consideration  that rusty bolts breaking off are part of this...Not everything can just come right a loose...You get what you pay for when it comes to Labor at Automotive shops....

It KILLS me that people will put more thought into findinga cell phone for their kid, than who they TRUST to work on their car...They usually go for the cheapest place they can find every time..

[Ghoste]

Fair enough and I've worked in service departments myself so justifying shop rates to customers is by no means an unknown experience to me.
FWIW, we need Purple440 to explain a little more.  Based on what I assume he is talking about, the quote seems a little healthy to me.

[Purple440]

FWIW, we need Purple440 to explain a little more.

I could unbolt the heads and put new heads on, and probably(hopefully) get the gaskets to seal. I'm looking for a pro to measure my piston to deck clearance, valve clearance, quench, and whatever else can be measured to help me get my EXACT compression ratio with the new aluminum heads.  I have a detonation problem that needs to be resolved, which could be due to my open chamber 452's.

This engine was blueprinted and balanced during the initial build.

- Doug

[Ghoste]

In that case I would agree with Cooter.  You get them in there measuring a lot of things then any decent shop that cares about blueprinting will have a bunch of time tied up in that.

[Purple440]

Yep Ghoste I'm looking for measurements along with the installation.  The blueprinting is done as I stated, just need the #'s.

- Doug

[Ghoste]

Measurements and blueprinting are hand in glove.  In any case, they'll need time to do it properly and leaning over that fender to do it will take longer than doing it on an engine stand.  If the ultimate goal is to cure a detonation problem all of this could end up being 400 dollars well spent.

[Purple440]

Measurements and blueprinting are hand in glove.  In any case, they'll need time to do it properly and leaning over that fender to do it will take longer than doing it on an engine stand.  If the ultimate goal is to cure a detonation problem all of this could end up being 400 dollars well spent.

That is the goal, else I'd keep my current iron heads.  Based on the the advice I've received from you guys, I've got it tuned to where it starts on a dime and runs well.  The only downside is I had my distro recurved to a total under 30degrees because of detonation.  Nobody knows why I'm detonating so much, but closed chambered aluminums will probably fix it.  My cam was not degreed in.

So new heads is my "fix".

- Doug

[Cooter]

You think $400.00 is too much for all your asking? Lemme ask you this............Why is it when people buy PARTS, they pay the price ask'd and don't try to get them any cheaper....

But when it comes to installing the parts if they can't, the FIRST thing they want to do is "Barter" with the labor end of things?

Just FYI, if that engine was "Blueprinted" like you state, it wouldn't be "pinging"..

Nobody is gonna check your Piston to valve clearance and figure out you static compression ratio AND R&R those heads for cheap...You are talking ALOT of time to measure all the different things that is required to figure these out..Do you reallize you will have to actually R&R the heads TWICE as you have to bolt them down, roll the engine over with clay on the piston just to check the piston to Valve clearance?

So lemme get this straight, you are asking if $400.00 is too much For all this? I'm so glad I have the right to refuse to work on peoples "Baby's" for this very reason....They will spend $25K in parts, but want  someone to install them for $500.00......

[Ghoste]

Hey Doug, when you say the engine was blueprinted, may I ask what you mean by that?  I ask because you say the cam wasn't degreed and if the same shop that did your blueprinting installed your cam, well...

[lisiecki1]

Hey Doug, when you say the engine was blueprinted, may I ask what you mean by that?  I ask because you say the cam wasn't degreed and if the same shop that did your blueprinting installed your cam, well...

I was wondering the same thing, if the engine has been "blueprinted" why didn't the original builder record the measurements you require?

[Purple440]

Hey Doug, when you say the engine was blueprinted, may I ask what you mean by that?  I ask because you say the cam wasn't degreed and if the same shop that did your blueprinting installed your cam, well...

Ghoste and lisiecki1, that means the block was decked so the heads seat well right?  The engine was blue printed and balanced.  The cam was installed by my builder "straight up", he told me this last summer that he didn't degree it.    Engine was built 8 years ago and I was not there when he installed the cam (I'm pretty sure I was blueprinting my girlfriend at that time), nor did I know what degreeing a cam was until I joined this forum.

Maybe my understanding of "blue printing" is limited?  I was hoping this local shop I found would help me install the heads along with giving me some #'s on clearances so I could figure out my actual compression ratio.

- Doug

[lisiecki1]

Hey Doug, when you say the engine was blueprinted, may I ask what you mean by that?  I ask because you say the cam wasn't degreed and if the same shop that did your blueprinting installed your cam, well...

Ghoste and lisiecki1, that means the block was decked so the heads seat well right?  The engine was blue printed and balanced.  The cam was installed by my builder "straight up", he told me this last summer that he didn't degree it.    Engine was built 8 years ago and I was not there when he installed the cam (I'm pretty sure I was blueprinting my girlfriend at that time), nor did I know what degreeing a cam was until I joined this forum.

Maybe my understanding of "blue printing" is limited?  I was hoping this local shop I found would help me install the heads along with giving me some #'s on clearances so I could figure out my actual compression ratio.

- Doug

this is my understanding of it (taken from the internet):

Blueprinting is a very exhaustive and extensive process of rebuilding the engine. When the engine is designed, there are specifications for every dimension of every engine part. Since the parts are mass-produced, there is no way that they can be made exactly to spec, so there's a tolerance allowed on the parts (for example, the weight of a piston would be specified as X number of ounces, plus or minus 10%). Same for connecting rods, wrist pins, the inside diameter of each runner in the manifolds, weights and dimensions of valves, etc.

When an engine shop blueprints an engine, it means they build it to the exact specification for each part and clearance in the engine. They may order 50 pistons for a V6 engine, and will measure all of them for all size and weight dimensions, and won't stop until they get six that match exactly. They'll then do the same for the six rods, six wristpins, the valves, crankshaft, etc. They'll take the intake manifold and will usually bore it out (or extrude-hone it, which involves flowing a high-temperature, abrasive clay through it at high speed/pressure to polish and enlarge the volume for better airflow). Ditto that for the exhaust manifolds. They'll do a full hot-tank treatment on the block, metallax the block (alternate heating and cooling of the block to make the crystalline structure of the engine block metal more regular, and thus stronger), cross-hatch the cylinders for oil retention on the walls (better lubrication and less friction as the pistons move), order cams with an optimum grind for valve lift and duration (this determines the airflow characteristics of the engine, where it'll make peak power and torque, etc), they'll knife-edge, balance, micropolish, and shotpeen the crank for less turbulence in the oil pan and lighter rotating weight (so it doesn't drain as much power), and they'll assemble it all to exacting fit and torque specs.

The end result is that you can gain 20% or more output from the engine, or even more still if they do porting/polishing on the components, extrude-honing, etc. With that stuff and custom-spec cams, the output could go up 30-40% even. It's a big power gain, but it comes at a big cost (as I'm sure you can tell). It's only really worth it on a race engine. Anyone who says they can blueprint a motor for a grand or less is full of it. You'd honestly be looking at $2000 or more easily if you only rebuilt it to stock spec with stock parts. Using aftermarket, high-performance parts, custom cams, extrude-honing, porting and polishing, etc, can easily kick the price up to $5000 at the least, and depending on the components you buy, $10-20,000 is very easy to ring up. It's not for the faint of heart. But it may be all the difference in racing, especially in an SCCA class like Spec-Miata racing, where engines have to be unmodified (as in, using only OEM parts). There's no rule against blueprinting as long as the parts are all available at the dealership parts counter. It says you have to use stock parts, but it doesn't forbid you from using the best possible combination of stock parts possible

[Ghoste]

A lot of machine shops will tell you they "blueprinted" your engine but many of them do not.  There is a big differnce between actual blueprinting and just following factory specs.  As lisiecki1 has mentioned above, it is an exhaustive process where they take each part and strive to make it perfect, not just within tolerance.

[Cooter]

A "Blueprinted" engine also has EVERY Spark Plug indexed so that ALL the plug Electrodes point the EXACT same direction..The Term "Balanced and Blueprinted" is used and over used WAY too much these days...For the beginner, I can see how it would be easy to assume it really WAS Blueprinted...When in reallity, it was just blalanced as part of the norm in the machine shop...