Finally drove a new Camaro

[Ghoste]

I had a chance to spend a little time with one last weekend and I have to admit I'm very impressed. I'd still pick the Challenger personally but if I didn't have the brand loyalty it would be harder to decide between the two.  I think I would still go for the Dodge but Chevrolet has a good one there. It's just too bad that both cars came out just in time for a recession and a major government intervention into the freedom of American carmakers to decide for themselves what to build.
I didn't abuse the hell out of the car so I didn't come away with a full comparison to the Challenger but I liked what I did get to do.  I think there are plenty of other comparisons now that are more in depth than mine but of course everyone has to decide for themselves which car they would ultimately pick.  I do think they both leave the Mustang back in the pasture. I've driven a couple of Mustangs that were quicker (a couple of the Roush offerings for example) but they lack the all purpose sense of fun the other two give.
I'm not a real road tester like a Motor Trend writer   nor have I had more than about 10 to 30 minutes in them but I do know what I like.

[skip68]

I like the paddle shifters on the wheel.      It's kind of cool how the engine revs up automaticaly when you shift down.      Very touchy steering though.   NO play at all.  Not one mm.

[Ghoste]

This one was a stick car, no paddles.  I have had opportunity to drive a couple of other cars with paddles though and you are right they are an interesting experience.  I wonder if they will become more commonplace on "average" cars?  (average meaning not Ferarri's or Aston Martins and the like)

[aussiemuscle]

I'm not a real road tester like a Motor Trend writer  nor have I had more than about 10 to 30 minutes in them but I do know what I like.

You may not work for Motor Magazine, but i'd still be more likely to believe a real person like you than some Journo who's probably paid to form an opinion. 

Any specific items you can think of that you really liked or hated?

[Ghoste]

If I were completely honest one of the first things that I liked about the car had nothing at all to do with the actual driving of the thing it was 100% gimmick.  The dash lighting reminded me of my 67.  I would never buy one based on that of course but it was the first thing that made me pay attention.
I liked the overall feel of the car.  I sold Pontiacs during a good spell from 83 to 90 and the car had a familiar taught feeling that the F-bodies of that era had.  That said, I've owned a couple of E-body Mopars in my past and the new Challenger has it all over the old ones.  Mind, I'm not talking the visceral thrills of the old 426 Hemi cars or the Walter Mitty come Sam Posey excitement of taking a 70 TA Challenger down a winding road.  However, for a modern day interpretation of a pony car that goes fast, turns sharp and can be dealt with under todays auto environment (fuel mileage, quality control, ergonomic driving ease, sound system etc.) and how can you say no?  Is either car cheap?  Well, no not compared to a Caliber or whatever the small Chev is currently.  Then again, a 70 RT Challenger was quite a few more monthly payments than a slant six Swinger.  
The Challenger I had was a toy.  The one I plan to get next fall will be quicker than my 71 was and still large enough to take my daughters somewhere further than across town.
Comparing the new Camaro and the new Challenger is a little more difficult for me since I didn't beat hard on the Chev and I only had it for about ten minutes.  I have more seat time in the new Challenger (both an RT and an SRT) and I was given the chance to "exercise" quite a bit more.
The new Challenger easily outruns my 67 Charger and turns much nicer as well.  It also gets better mileage and is a lot quieter.  Where my Charger is better for my own personal taste is physical connection.  Once it's up to high speed my Charger demands your attention.  It's loud, you can smell the oil burning on the headers and you can tell that if you ignore it for long it will put you in trouble.
The new Challenger lacks that old school feedback which may or may not be a good thing.  I do suspect that once you hit the point of trouble in the new one, it will be too late to come back.

[Cooter]

When the new Dodge trucks came out, I wanted one.....Till I saw what they were asking for them. Now, almost 15 years AFTER they came out, I still want one, but will have to get it just like I get my older cars...When someone else has beaten the hell outta it and left it for dead...

The new Challenger? Camaro? Don't do the "Cadillac" Front end on the Camaro, the Challenger hit the mark, cept for the Very reason they were conceived in the first place...Musclecar= A car that has a huge engine and the average guy can afford....

I remember when the Corvette was a $60K car, now the Challenger is? Hmmmm, maybe I'm behind the times, but that's too much for 425 HP, No live rear axle, and a race weight of 4150 LBS...

I read where Chrysler was offering a "Stripper" version of the Challenger with no engine and 6 cyl. rear suspension, with body in white, weighing in @ 3000 LBS....Now we are talking....Till they slapped a $20K price tag on it and only sold them to "Racers"?....Where is the $26-$30K musclecars with the 6.1 Hemi, stick shift, that weighs in @ 3000 LBS, with 425 HP?  I guess that's why I have a broken down, worn out, Primered, beat up, 650 HP Dodge Dart, that doesn't have things like nav. system, power windows, rear seat, super smooth road manners, cruise, A/C, Traction control, ABS, Check Engine light, and about 10 on board Computers......

Gimme the old cars any day, as nobody's pulled up along side my Brother in his R/T Dodge Charger and ask for pictures like they did when he had his 1969 B5 Blue, with white tail stripe R/T.....They are nice, but they will never be the older cars....Feedback and having to "Fight" the car under full throttle have a certain appeal when buying these type cars....

[bull]

I'm pretty ignorant about these new muscle cars so I'll ask: are they totally messed up with a bunch of high-tech mumbo-jumbo like ABS, traction control, rev limiters, etc. Skip mentioned something about the engine revving up automatically, see right there you've already lost it with me. I want to be in control of what goes on, not the computer. Are you able to shut all that crap off and actually drive it yourself?

[Ghoste]

All of those things are pretty much standard anymore Bull and it goes back exactly to what I said about feeling when the car is leaving you.  I think with many of the new cars that by the time the tires let go, you are already way past the point of recovery for most drivers.  It isn't so much that the envelope of control has been expanded as that the edge of the envelope has become much more sharply defined?
As for paddle shifters, my experience with those things have been in a much different animal than the new Camaro and I found them to be a nice addition in those cases.

[Cooter]

I'm pretty ignorant about these new muscle cars so I'll ask: are they totally messed up with a bunch of high-tech mumbo-jumbo like ABS, traction control, rev limiters, etc. Skip mentioned something about the engine revving up automatically, see right there you've already lost it with me. I want to be in control of what goes on, not the computer. Are you able to shut all that crap off and actually drive it yourself?

The newer cars are "Drive by wire", this is so if you get into "trouble", the computer can back off the throttle for you....Drive by wire also is EXPENSIVE to repair, as I've had to replace a few of those throttle bodies already and they are in the neighborhood of around $400.00 a pop...The older cable? About $15 at the local junkyard and that's ONLY if you did something crazy to break/harm it...How many have actually worn out a throttle cable on their cars?

Technology is great, as I'm talking to you right now using it, some things are great when they are working, but I usually see the bad side of customers complaining that they never even knew their car had a $400 thottle body on it that didn't have a "Cable"....

[skip68]

Yes, traction control ect. ect. ect....        As cool as it seems, you are right about not having that feeling of control.   I guess they make these cars for anybody to drive.   Performance is great, styling is ok but, I would much rather be driving my 68 on a daily basis.     Would I buy one ?   NO.  Not at any price.    Now, the new Challenger, Hell yes....   It is a beautiful car done right.       The way I view newer cars and ricers  is like this... I don't care how fast it may be, how cool the sound system is or what it sounds like and how big the dam wheels are......   You still have to be seen driving in it.        I would be seen driving in a new Challenger any day.    

[bull]

I enjoy modern conveniences to a point. I like A/C, power windows, heated seats, CD players and radios that tell you what song/band is playing, etc., but I don't like all the other stuff -- the stuff that does the driving for you and the computer that monitors everything. I can see where they've tried going with all this BS but IMO its main, unintended function is to add more layers of stuff that can go wrong. Something goes wrong with these new cars, you get a check engine light and 99% of the time what is it? It's a bad sensor. Nothing's wrong with the car or engine itself but some friggin' $110 sensor burned out. I hate sensors. We were all able to move around the country 20 years ago without all this crap but now look at us. You open the hood of pretty much any new car and you're lucky if you can even see the engine, let alone work on any of it. Overengineered, overthought, overpriced and overwrought. Like the American public, todays cars have gotten obese.

[Arthu®]

This one was a stick car, no paddles.  I have had opportunity to drive a couple of other cars with paddles though and you are right they are an interesting experience.  I wonder if they will become more commonplace on "average" cars?  (average meaning not Ferarri's or Aston Martins and the like)

If they are as laggy as in the Aston Martins I hope they never enter the average market. I like the Audi's with the paddle's though, they shift nice and crisp and almost as fast as I could do it with my feet.

Arthur

[Ghoste]

My personal experience with the Aston Martins gives rise to less complaint about shift lag than it does overall reliability but that's a different topic again. 
The lag probably has less to do with paddles than it does transmission program but I really know nothing about the mechanics behind it.

[Mike DC]

The new Challenger lacks that old school feedback which may or may not be a good thing.  I do suspect that once you hit the point of trouble in the new one, it will be too late to come back.

I think with many of the new cars that by the time the tires let go, you are already way past the point of recovery for most drivers.  It isn't so much that the envelope of control has been expanded as that the edge of the envelope has become much more sharply defined?

It's because they're always trying make up for the 4000-pound curb weight by adding bigger/stiffer/stickier tires and huge sway bars.  The more you take the slop out of the chassis and the stickier the tires get, the more energy the car can build up before it catastrophically lets go.  




Imagine taking a pair of toy cars and putting them on a smooth table top.  Tilting the table top diagonally is like applying a G-force.  

Let's say one car has no sway bars.  And it has no-grip tires, like maybe just big silver dollar coins mounted onto the axles.  When you tilt the table diagonally to the side, the car is gonna begin to break loose fairly quickly.  But it also won't have much energy stored yet when it does.  It will be easy to get a feel for how far you can tilt the table before it slides off.

But if the other car has sticky tires & stiff sway bars?  Whoa, boy.  Now that car is gonna completely hold on as you tilt the table higher & higher . . . until it suddenly lets go and slides off the table very fast.  It will be MUCH, MUCH harder to feather the table's angle and hold this car at the edge of adhesion without losing it.  



All of which is why sports cars were more fun back when the tires weren't so grippy and the curb weights were low.   

[Ghoste]

You are absolutely right Mike but I don't necessarily agree that it's done to make up for the curb weight.  The same principles have been applied to the Mustang even when it was the Fox platform and the same results.  Inexperienced drivers suddenly faced that catastrophic let go that you so correctly describe before they ever knew they were driving beyond the ability.

[Mike DC]

 
Well, yeah I agree it's not strictly for the weight.  Once grippier tires became possible the pandora's box was open.  Every sports car was gonna get them, heavy or not. 

I just think the grippy tires have band-aided the weight problem and allowed it to fester & build.  Otherwise they might've had to deal with it more seriously years ago. 


 
Modern radials are safer to break loose than the old bias-plys when the given sizes and dimensions are the same, but they also ushered in the modern trend of ever-grippier tires as the years go by.  

[Ghoste]

It's too bad that driving schools and tests for our licences don't include some actual defensive driving where they take you out on gravel and wet pavement and purposely put the car into a skidto show what happens and how to react.  Around here, if you know to stop for a red light and you can parallel park you are pretty much in.

[Mike DC]

        
When I was in high school & college I remember some of my classmates dealing with it.  Whenver it rained or snowed hard at least a couple of them were gonna wad up their cars.  They would always be really surpised and blame the car.  They would come out of it saying, "the steering/brakes just suddenly locked up on me!  I'm a good driver but it was the car!  I had no control!"  

Of course the car didn't really "lock up" at all, it was just an understeer-heavy FWD car and the front tires broke traction when they pushed it too far on a wet road.  These drivers just have no concept that a car will abruptly lose traction like that.  They are so unaccustomed to it that they literally mistake it for a mechanical failure.